Martial Arts/Dark Armor or Martial Arts/Shield?
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MA/Shield has sexy.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Do either of these stand out as the obviously better choice? I know DA can stack stuns with Martial Arts, and Shield contributes extra damage and an extra AoE to help on that front. Am I missing anything obvious or are they more or less comparable?
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"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
I don't think you're missing anything obvious. Damage or stuns. I'd definitely go damage myself.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Two different kinds of awesome. The best choice is... both.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
Shield Melee/Dark Armor
In all honesty I hate the way MA looks with a shield. It looks funny seeing someone do these fancy kicks while carrying a shield around. Thats just me though.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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I think a better question would be Dark Melee/Shields or Martial Arts/Dark Armor|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Do either of these stand out as the obviously better choice? I know DA can stack stuns with Martial Arts, and Shield contributes extra damage and an extra AoE to help on that front. Am I missing anything obvious or are they more or less comparable?
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But of your two choices, it will probably have to come down to personal flavor or concept.
Martial Arts is really nice now with the cobra strike change. But it will still not impress anyone looking for an AoE powerhouse or even AoE capable set. Both of your choices will help out in the AoE department, but I think Shield Charge + AAO is going to be more impressive (as far as AoE dmg goes).
Both /Shields and /Dark Armor are going to take alot of influence to be really strong end game, but if you spend that time/influence the rewards are really there. /Dark is going to be reliant on a click heal until everything starts falling into place at the end-build, whereas /Shields is a little more "set-n-forget". One of these playstyles will appeal differently for each individual.
For instance, I prefer a "set-n-forget" playstyle on my melee characters, which is why I love the Willpower set. So from this you can see why I have dabbled in /Dark but never committed to going all the way with one. Most of what I know on /Dark comes from duoing with my guildmates Dark/Dark scrapper and helping him IO it out.
Hope that helps a little Tex
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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"set and forget" until your health drops like a stone and you realize a heal button would be awesome. Once you softcap DA, it is a monster. Plus, i would rather have a clicky heal than clicky mez protection.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
For instance, I prefer a "set-n-forget" playstyle on my melee characters, which is why I love the Willpower set. So from this you can see why I have dabbled in /Dark but never committed to going all the way with one. Most of what I know on /Dark comes from duoing with my guildmates Dark/Dark scrapper and helping him IO it out.
Hope that helps a little Tex |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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My guildmate's build is sitting around 36% S/L 30% E/N. He will not be hitting soft-cap due to the sacrifices that would be required for this to happen. His final build will be around 39% S/L/E/N and 20-25% Psi/F/C. The heal is what makes up all the difference for /Dark IMO. Well that and CLoak of Fear stacking with Touch of fear. Anything normally seen solo isn't even attacking after the first strike.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
"set and forget" until your health drops like a stone and you realize a heal button would be awesome. Once you softcap DA, it is a monster. Plus, i would rather have a clicky heal than clicky mez protection.
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Shields on the other hand can hit the softcap to all but Psi and can use its IO investments for Recharge and Regen. I personally have a Shield Tanker that should be able to get pretty close to 400% regen. And that is very "set-n-forget" to me. Plus my Mezz clickie is on auto fire, so it may as well be a toggle.
Bottom line; MA/Shield seems the more Offensive combination while MA/Dark the more Defensive "scrap-troller" combination.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I wasn't saying shield wasn't set and forget. I was saying that sometimes "set and forget" will bite you the hindquarters. Having a button that will heal you for pretty much ALL of your HP that recharges every 13 seconds or so is a pretty nice thing.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
My guildmate's build is sitting around 36% S/L 30% E/N. He will not be hitting soft-cap due to the sacrifices that would be required for this to happen. His final build will be around 39% S/L/E/N and 20-25% Psi/F/C. The heal is what makes up all the difference for /Dark IMO. Well that and CLoak of Fear stacking with Touch of fear. Anything normally seen solo isn't even attacking after the first strike.
Shields on the other hand can hit the softcap to all but Psi and can use its IO investments for Recharge and Regen. I personally have a Shield Tanker that should be able to get pretty close to 400% regen. And that is very "set-n-forget" to me. Plus my Mezz clickie is on auto fire, so it may as well be a toggle. Bottom line; MA/Shield seems the more Offensive combination while MA/Dark the more Defensive "scrap-troller" combination. |
Don't forget that DA has a healthy dose of Psi resistance, is pretty easy to softcap to S/L, and has excellent resist to end drain.
Regen is nice and all, but you aren't going to regen fast enough to really do much good if the RNG hates you. More damage potential is useless if you are dead.
Oh, and while Touch of Fear does stack with Cloak of Fear, it really isn't pertinent to MA.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Hehe, Agreed |
Originally Posted by _Deth_
I wasn't saying shield wasn't set and forget. I was saying that sometimes "set and forget" will bite you the hindquarters. Having a button that will heal you for pretty much ALL of your HP that recharges every 13 seconds or so is a pretty nice thing.
Don't forget that DA has a healthy dose of Psi resistance, is pretty easy to softcap to S/L, and has excellent resist to end drain. Regen is nice and all, but you aren't going to regen fast enough to really do much good if the RNG hates you. More damage potential is useless if you are dead. Oh, and while Touch of Fear does stack with Cloak of Fear, it really isn't pertinent to MA. |
Like I said, I really, really want to play /Dark all the way to 50, just cannot get past 30 before I see something more shiney.
I don't know about being easy to softcap S/L. 5 (4-piece sets of) Kinetic combat plus 4 (4-piece sets of) Reactive Armor plus various other defensive powers sets (I would go Weave/CJ/Cloak of Darkness) means you will be spending a serious amount of coin for that magic number. What we decided to do instead is to rely on -tohit to make up the difference between 39% and softcap.
Regen works surprisingly well for a Defense toon, but yeah a click heal would be better.
I knew that ToF was not relevant, but a MA/Dark would be using CS + OG for similar levels of protection. My point was that even though you are not at the softcap, you will be mitigating alot of damage thru crowd control, so will you really miss the softcap.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Quite. But soft capping Dark Armor on a Scrapper is much much more easily said than done, and involves significant compromise. Wouldn't surprise me if there are only a couple dozen Scrappers in the entire game running around with soft-capped Darks. I'm not even one of them at the moment due to the Blessing of the Zephyr nerf.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Once you softcap DA, it is a monster.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
No real experance with DA, but lots with an SD tanker. With AAO you getting a nice attack buff and Shield Charge will make up for MA's lack of AoE.
DA, from my understanding, is a bit of a swiss army knife. Not the best tool for any one aspect, and a bit squisher (By squishier I mean you'll be hitting your heal more often than say Inv), but has more well rounded resists (CoughPsiCough) and has more options to deal with problems than other sets. It needs a skilled player to make it shine.
Agian, however, I have no personally experance with DA and all that is based on what I've seen and heresay.
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The Blessing of the Zephyr nerf?!? Uh-oh, did I miss something!?! What nerf and when? |
Originally Posted by Werner
Quite. But soft capping Dark Armor on a Scrapper is much much more easily said than done, and involves significant compromise. Wouldn't surprise me if there are only a couple dozen Scrappers in the entire game running around with soft-capped Darks. I'm not even one of them at the moment due to the Blessing of the Zephyr nerf.
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I think it was shortly before I18? Defense nerf. Ranged is currently 1.25% and AoE is 1.875%. Still potentially useful in some builds, particularly in Dark since you need the knockback protection anyway, but it's no longer the gotta-have-it route to awesome.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
The Blessing of the Zephyr nerf?!? Uh-oh, did I miss something!?! What nerf and when?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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2 quick things.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Quite. But soft capping Dark Armor on a Scrapper is much much more easily said than done, and involves significant compromise. Wouldn't surprise me if there are only a couple dozen Scrappers in the entire game running around with soft-capped Darks. I'm not even one of them at the moment due to the Blessing of the Zephyr nerf.
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1) Previously, sacrifice necessary to achieve soft cap to everything were not worthwhile. Since the BotZ nerf, I shifted to typed defense builds and found them to be superior to my builds that relied on BotZ, but none of those were soft capped.
2) With Shadow Meld, achieving soft cap seems relatively easy, granted this is very difficult to achieve permanently. I've managed to achieve a 15 seconds on/15 seconds off for Shadow Meld, which would allow me to walk into each spawn above soft cap. This is all theoretical, I've just returned to CoH and have not tested it yet. Have folks tried this out yet?
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I've not tested it, but I wouldn't personally go that route except on a Regen. If you're running 15 seconds up, 15 seconds down, you have a high end build. A high end build, assuming there's any focus at all on survivability, should be able to fight nasty, slow spawns, and will probably cause boredom in anything but. If you're fighting a nasty, slow spawn, the 15 seconds of downtime will occur while there are still plenty of nasty enemies pounding on you. Sounds like suicide to me.
The Regen exception is because Regen has so many OTHER tools to smooth out the performance.
Another exception might be a farmer. If you're on a 30 second cycle for the spawns you're hitting, that might fit in well with Shadow Meld. It'll absorb the alpha, and the enemies left after 15 seconds probably won't be standing long enough to finish you off.
And I suppose there might be other exceptions. Like a Dark Armor, with that exceptional heal and good resistance. They'd have to kill you twice over in 15 seconds, basically, to take you down. But I probably wouldn't be running a recharge build on Dark Armor, making Shadow Meld less useful.
I guess we really need actual in-game experience like you asked for. It's one of those things that might be great, and might suck.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I supposed I should specify the build has 30% defense to S/L/E/NE when Shadow Meld is down.
While I've generally skipped Hasten, with the whole Fitness inherent thing, Hasten now seems to good to pass up. Achieving high levels recharge seems quite easy with minimal sacrifice. Again, speaking theoretically, haven't tested it yet.
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So when Shadow Meld is down, you're taking three times as much damage as when it's up. I think you'd be stuck targeting your difficulty level for the period when it's down unless you have something else to fill the gap (e.g., Regen) or you can set up your game play so that the first 15 seconds are 3x as difficult as the next (e.g., farming on a 30 second cycle).
And yeah, Hasten is going to be hard to turn down in I19.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Bingo! This is exactly what a Dark/Dark guildmate and I have been discussing. He is working on a second build which will be more focused for farming. Shadowmeld seems like a good way to make a "farmer on the cheap". Start a fight at or over cap, use your buildup+AoEs and be done with the battle before SM wears off. Move to next spawn, fire off SM when it recharges, rinse, repeat. Depending on what you were farming, your "baseline" defenses (without Shadowmeld) could be pretty crappy and you still may be able to make a go at large +0 spawns. Who knows.
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Originally Posted by Werner
...Another exception might be a farmer. If you're on a 30 second cycle for the spawns you're hitting, that might fit in well with Shadow Meld. It'll absorb the alpha, and the enemies left after 15 seconds probably won't be standing long enough to finish you off.
And I suppose there might be other exceptions. Like a Dark Armor, with that exceptional heal and good resistance. They'd have to kill you twice over in 15 seconds, basically, to take you down. But I probably wouldn't be running a recharge build on Dark Armor, making Shadow Meld less useful. I guess we really need actual in-game experience like you asked for. It's one of those things that might be great, and might suck. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Ditto. |
Originally Posted by Werner
Quite. But soft capping Dark Armor on a Scrapper is much much more easily said than done, and involves significant compromise. Wouldn't surprise me if there are only a couple dozen Scrappers in the entire game running around with soft-capped Darks. I'm not even one of them at the moment due to the Blessing of the Zephyr nerf.
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My BS/DA was softcapped, but no longer is. That said, with Parry and ~35% to ranged and AoE he's still pretty damn tough. (I stripped some of his IOs for another build, he was at 41% to ranged and AoE with his prior build)
I have my doubts that MA/DA would be able to softcap easily. And the hole in the set is one that isn't easily covered by that powerset combo (Dark Armor has weaker resists to Energy, if you can't get decent levels of Energy defense, those pure energy attacks are going to hurt)
S/L defense should be doable, but kind of expensive, and you probably won't be getting much recharge slotted in the process either.
Given the choice, I'd probably lean toward MA/Shield.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Do either of these stand out as the obviously better choice? I know DA can stack stuns with Martial Arts, and Shield contributes extra damage and an extra AoE to help on that front. Am I missing anything obvious or are they more or less comparable?