I have run several DA, and the two best secondarys I've found for it so far are:
Mace - it's slower than others, but it does a great job of aggro control
Electric - it's end drain eliminates a lot of DA's end issues early on.
Quote:
You know what, you've convinced me. /Ice is awesome and doesn't need a buff. Enjoy your 90 degrees Frost, "Foot Stomp Clone", and your powerful Build Up.
|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Um no sorry you are wrong, if you are going to start adding more power together, then you can't compared them to one power. Frozen Aura + Frost vs Footstomp + Rage. OH BUT WAIT, Ice melee still has build up.
Frost is not 'subpar' for an AoE, if you cant easily fit at least 5 targets inside it, then im sorry, you aren't trying hard enough. It hitting less targets is balanced around that it does more damage then normal targets. *Hint you can increase the range of frost to expand the cone* I like how its somehow 'my powerset', and then you use personal opinion to say that somethings needs to be buffed. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Fault + OG = love.
Quote:
If your primary is Dark Armor, bosses are the only things that matter. With OG, minions might as well not exist.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Unless you are just fighting high level bosses, that is completely false, Ice melee has very good AoE damage and can easily kill mobs and mobs of minions and LTs. If having a footstomp clone for an AoE isn't enough along with all of Ice melees other powers. then nothing is enough.
Its ST damage is pretty terrible tho. Which is why soul mastery is an amazing powerpick for ice melee. gloom ftw. |
I agree that Ice melee has great AoE damage, but DA doesn't need that kind of support.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
As has been said, any secondary is good. My DA/DM tank is awesome, and it has nothing to do with siphon life or dark consumption.
Get the recovery uniques and the theft of essence proc. the uniques have done me more mileage than the proc, for some reason lately it just doesnt proc for crap for me.
As for guides, read Jebe_the_Pirate's DA guide. Seriously. Read it. It's all the guide you need to DA.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
Or anything Dechs has written about it.
|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
As for guides, read Jebe_the_Pirate's DA guide. Seriously. Read it. It's all the guide you need to DA.
|
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
But Dechs' said "Dark Armor sucks. It can't tank anything".....
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
I did not! The title of that post was in quotes. That was something said to me, which I happily refuted.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I'm hoping you do realize I was making a joke, albeit a bit at your expense. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Of course. 
Still, I can't allow such a rumor propagate unhindered.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
DA is something of an end hog. But the big endurance eating powers in the set are things that may not be worth the bother to take unless you have something that synergizes with them. Cloak of Fear is totally optional unless you have fears from a secondary or a power pool for it to stack with. Without Cloak of Fear, endurance issues from the toggles are not intolerable. |
Originally Posted by Swinci
Was bored last night an thought about making a tank. After looking at the sets DA looked the funnest to me and kind of got a little concept. But after looking at the secondaries I kind of got lost. I was wondering what was a good secondary for DA.
|
Same way with Oppressive Gloom and stuns. And Oppressive Gloom will eat your hit points and make you need your self heal more often, and that's another big endurance cost.
So you have several possible approaches. A synergy approach would go with Fear, and look at Dark Melee or pool powers; or go with Stun, which haves a number of options: Energy Melee, War Mace, Super Strength, Stone Melee, Electric Melee; I probably missed some.
You could also decide to skip all that, and go with a demanding secondary with relatively low endurance costs, such as Dual Blades or Electric Melee. Or you could go the pure team utility route, and choose something like Ice or Stone, to become a melee controller.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
DA can be an Endurance Hog if not slotted well. My Dark/Dark tank runs 10 toggles for most fights and I only turn off the 10th one(Super Speed) in longer fights. I will occasionally use Dark Consumption, but most of the time as an attack, not to refill my end bar.
I do use Oppressive Gloom on both my DA/DM and my DA/Ele and the amount of hp loss isn't as great as I would have originally believed. On the incompletely IO'd DA/DM my regen is high enough that I barely notice a blip on the HP bar in a full crowd. It's also not presenting an issue on my DA/Ele. Even without a lot of Stun synergy OG continues to take most minions out of the fight, if not all of them. Getting it on the DA/Ele upped his survivability greatly.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Quote:
Not trying to take anything away from Dechs, but people were doing what he did in that DA video a long time before he posted that. The basic framework for most people's DA tank builds now comes from what Jebe put together.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Or anything Dechs has written about it.
|
Dech's knows his stuff, I am not arguing that he doesn't. He has definitely brought a lot of attention back to DA. That said, Dech's wasn't around the DA community when I put my DA/DM together. The only people I really got any help from at all were Jebe and Findulias(altho a lot of that was me arguing with Fin that you didn't need CoF or OG to be effective) and a couple others. Hell, even Rangle was still leveling his DA/DM. I did get some input from Dechs on softcapping, but that was in general, not dealing with DA at all. I got bored in ish 15 and took a break, when I came back to the game 8 months later, which was about a month after Dechs posted that vid, I compared his build to mine. Basically the same.
So again, like I said before, read Jebe's guide.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
Maybe you won't, but I sure will.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Dechs knows his stuff, I am not arguing that he doesn't.
|
Ok, so I know enough to realize that capping defense on a resistance set with an enormous heal makes for a tough character, even without any mitigation tools in the melee set. That doesn't make me an expert on DA by any measure.
What will make me an expert is a Dark Armor tour around the ATs, which I'm in the process of now. I will be combining Dark Armor with different melee sets on each character. My DA stalker just hit 36 last night. He is leveraging Ninja Blade's Divine Avalanche to maximize his survival, but the brute and scrapper I have planned will have no such tools. The brute is claws/DA and the scrapper is Kin/DA. One can stack stuns and -dmg on top of resists. The other rips faces off.
Even then, I won't be a complete expert on Dark Armor. For that title, I'd have to try every melee pairing with DA available, repeated on every AT. The sheer amount of combinations resulting is immense, if not impossible to complete in a lifetime. Suffice to say, the tour is designed to give me the broadest vantage point I can realistically attain. I have done DA with no extra mitigation already on the toughest AT. I'm doing DA with heaps of mitigation on the most fragile AT. I will be doing two varying degrees between on the remaining ATs.
Once I'm done with this little tour, I'll feel much better about my DA knowledge. At that point, I plan on writing the MFing Dark Armor Guide, having tasted the set on four ATs, with and without mitigation tools in a melee set.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
So again, like I said before, read Jebe's guide.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I have been doing the same thing, DA is a bit of a different beast on other ATs, and my builds on each AT are measurably different. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Maybe you won't, but I sure will.
Ok, so I know enough to realize that capping defense on a resistance set with an enormous heal makes for a tough character, even without any mitigation tools in the melee set. That doesn't make me an expert on DA by any measure. What will make me an expert is a Dark Armor tour around the ATs, which I'm in the process of now. I will be combining Dark Armor with different melee sets on each character. My DA stalker just hit 36 last night. He is leveraging Ninja Blade's Divine Avalanche to maximize his survival, but the brute and scrapper I have planned will have no such tools. The brute is claws/DA and the scrapper is Kin/DA. One can stack stuns. The other rips faces off. Once I'm done with this little tour, I'll feel much better about my DA knowledge. At that point, I plan on writing the MFing Dark Armor Guide, having tasted the set on four ATs, with and without mitigation tools in a melee set. |
I plan on running CoF and or OG on my DB/DA stalker, which at 30 is wicked fun. I have a solid softcapped S/L build, still debating on if I want to run with Shadowmeld for "oh crap" moments.
Still trying to work out where I want to go with my Kat/DA Scrapper (level 36), I am eschewing heavy defense for heavy recharge and just plain kill kill kill power. Leveraging the hell out of Divine Avalance. The way I play my scrapper it should work well.
And like you, I went claws/DA on my brute. It's @38 right now, and I cannot stress enough how fun this toon is. Whirling blades of slashy dark death. I wade in, taking on a lot more than I "should" be able to take on, and ride that edge between victory and death the whole time. Once I finish my DA/DM tanks positional def build, I am torn between this toon and my stalker. I am seriously thinking of making this toon my main. And again, a very different build from my scrapper/tank/stalker. Tried KM/DA, got it into mid 20s but didn't care for it much. Lacked the speed of claws, which I really dig.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It's a good guide to be sure, though I couldn't disagree more with his opinion on Soul Transfer. I wish I'd have seen it before I made my DA tank, but then again, the conclusions he draws on set bonuses must be rather obvious if I made the same ones.
|
As far as his opinion on ST in that guide, scroll down a few posts in that thread, I completely disagree with him about Soul Transfer. I used to use ST strategically on a regular basis. My current build doesn't have ST, which annoys the hell out of me, but I am not going to waste a respec right before I19 drops(then again, i may have a freespec on him still). I decided to give OG another chance, still hate it. But, that's on my DA/DM, if I were stone melee, I would be all about it.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
I did, and... I'm not happy with it. While it's clear he's made his Dark tank into a veritable wall of fun, there are a lot of things he forgets to mention and quite frankly, his opinion on Soul Transfer is pretty bad IMHO.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
So again, like I said before, read Jebe's guide. |
He doesn't mention the GIGANTIC Psi resist values in Obsidian Shield and instead goes on to say it needs Steadfasts slotted into it for KB protection, when you could easily slot a Karma into Cloak of Darkness or take Acrobatics (since he mentioned the Leaping pool).
He doesn't mention the EQUALLY GIGANTIC Endurance Drain resist values in Murky Cloud, which can really make a difference when fighting Carnies, Malta, Freaks, and anything with a substantial Endurance Drain in it's arsenal. (I laugh at Sappers.)
He doesn't mention the two most crucial parts about Soul Transfer:
-It's Autohit
-Magnitude 30 stun!
Soul Transfer is quite possibly the BEST way a Dark Tank can soak an Alpha, even if it does require dying in order to do it. Just hover your finger over that thing when your health goes red and then hammer is when it flashes red. Before that spawn has a chance to turn and attack your allies they're hit with the biggest stun of their lives, allowing you to mercilessly pick off each one of them before it wears off.
Plus, I can't remember when they implemented Darkest Night for Soul Mastery so I'm going to assume he didn't have the opportunity to mention it, as it's the keystone for my (and several of my friends') Dark Armor characters.
I'm not saying it's a bad guide. I'm just saying he's either unaware or apathetic to a few of Dark Armor's biggest key points. I'm hoping for the former, because the latter is just sad and does little for his know-how of DA in my eyes.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
I just leave it on auto. Then again, I don't have hasten in my builds.
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Just hover your finger over that thing when your health goes red and then hammer is when it flashes red.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
... Ingenious!|
Originally Posted by dechs kaison
i just leave it on auto. Then again, i don't have hasten in my builds.
|
But in all seriousness that's a good idea.
And in even more seriousness I can't agree with that guide.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
It's not bad, it's just different from yours. And if you look a few posts down after it, you would also see that I disagree with him on that as well. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I did, and... I'm not happy with it. While it's clear he's made his Dark tank into a veritable wall of fun, there are a lot of things he forgets to mention and quite frankly, his opinion on Soul Transfer is pretty bad IMHO.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
He doesn't mention the GIGANTIC Psi resist values in Obsidian Shield and instead goes on to say it needs Steadfasts slotted into it for KB protection, when you could easily slot a Karma into Cloak of Darkness or take Acrobatics (since he mentioned the Leaping pool).
|
Don't skim, read.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
He doesn't mention the EQUALLY GIGANTIC Endurance Drain resist values in Murky Cloud, which can really make a difference when fighting Carnies, Malta, Freaks, and anything with a substantial Endurance Drain in it's arsenal. (I laugh at Sappers.)
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
He doesn't mention the two most crucial parts about Soul Transfer:
-It's Autohit -Magnitude 30 stun! Soul Transfer is quite possibly the BEST way a Dark Tank can soak an Alpha, even if it does require dying in order to do it. Just hover your finger over that thing when your health goes red and then hammer is when it flashes red. Before that spawn has a chance to turn and attack your allies they're hit with the biggest stun of their lives, allowing you to mercilessly pick off each one of them before it wears off. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Plus, I can't remember when they implemented Darkest Night for Soul Mastery so I'm going to assume he didn't have the opportunity to mention it, as it's the keystone for my (and several of my friends') Dark Armor characters.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'm not saying it's a bad guide. I'm just saying he's either unaware or apathetic to a few of Dark Armor's biggest key points. I'm hoping for the former, because the latter is just sad and does little for his know-how of DA in my eyes.
|
Read the whole thing. Actually read it, don't skim it.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
I won't BS you and say I read the whole thing, because admittedly I skimmed it. But I did read fully the powers I believe are key in DA (sentence structure fail I know). I feel that if you're gonna make a guide, you need to talk up the strengths of a power even if those powers mention it in their description.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
It's not bad, it's just different from yours. And if you look a few posts down after it, you would also see that I disagree with him on that as well.
He actually states that KB resist is not included in OS and needs to be put into the build somewhere, not that OS be slotted with them. The description itself states that it has Psi resist. Also, look at how he has it slotted in the sample builds, 4 reactive armors. Don't skim, read. The description mentions the end drain resist. He also mentions the end drain resist as one of the benefits DA gets over Invuln when he talks about IO slotting strategies. |
He also says that OS can only accept the Steadfast sets, which is true. I think it would benefit all DA players to hear "You can slot Steadfasts, but don't skip on resistance either."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
You have to be kidding me. I love ST, don't get me wrong, but I have never, and I repeat NEVER, used it to soak an alpha. What I have used it for has been to get control over situations where I was grouped with idiots that managed to completely cluster f@ck a situation. It works great for instant crowd control. I have also used it in extremely long encounters(before I finished my build), to reload my blue and green bars. But for an alpha, nope, never. Also, when fully IO'd, it really is more of a "hey guys, i'm bored and wanna mix it up a bit" kind of power. Seriously. Fully IO'd it takes a LOT to kill me. Usually a lot of Romans.
|
Please keep in mind that I'm a bit biased to Tanker views; I play my 50 DA as a Brute. But the tactic I use with ST isn't a bad idea, it's just the way I do it. No need to condescend. ST works as a great solo alpha-soaker (wow they hit hard, time to get back up) and even better as a crowd-incapacitating power .
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
It's a guide for tanks. Soul Mastery has only been available for what? 2 months? That guide was written in issue 14. And seriously, other than maybe for romans, a softcapped DA tank really isn't going to need it. I have yet to wish I had it. Now, for a brute, different story.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
He wasn't unaware or apathetic of anything, it's all stated in there, just not in a big "LOOK AT ME" structure.
Read the whole thing. Actually read it, don't skim it. |
I guess I have to mention this here, too: I'm in the minority of players who has never had survivability issues without Tough/Weave. If I can survive on my characters without them, I don't feel a need to softcap and slot things in ways I'd rather not. It all hinges on opinion and playstyle and that guide doesn't fit mine.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Once fitness is inherent ST is possibly one of them "why not?" haves. I like it personally. You can be a Tanky and still have it in the build for just incaseness although I do get people when they say they don't die enough to need it but I do get people who like to use it for fun an all. I think its better to read more than one guide, I for one wouldn't take Jebes build. I don't need to run it through Mids to know this. I would always suggest reading as many guides as possible as opposed to one persons whose might be the best. I ain't really read a DA guide since 2006 myself and it was prolly a scrappers.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
*glances casually at his signature and clears his throat*|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I ain't really read a DA guide since 2006 myself and it was prolly a scrappers.
|
>_>
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
well, now that the thread has been fully jacked, and I admit my part in it and feel kinda bad......
Jebe's main guide was built around building a tank that was going to be near impossible to kill in most situations.
Didn't mean to come off condescending, Nalrok, and yeah, coming from a brute perspective your point of view is going to be different than those coming from a tankers perspective. Many many tanks believe it is a mortal sin to die. I personally am not one of them. As far as ST is concerned, Jebe didn't like it, because it was of little use to him, as he was tough enough to not die in most conceivable situations.
Nothing wrong with not building towards the softcap. Before I started IOing, I had CoF AND OG. Again, you should take a look at the end of the guide, towards the end of it he mentioned other ways of going about things. Jebe was interested in different playstyles, and different ways of being effective. One of his projects was a fearbomb DA tank, completely built around extreme soft control through fear.
In a few days, I am completely reworking my build around positional defense, and yes, it will be softcapped, and surprisingly, it will probably do a good bit more damage AND have more utility. I started that project build back when I was tossing ideas back and forth with Jebe, and only really started looking at it again a couple months ago. Once that is done, am going offense and soft control heavy on my other build.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I started my Dark/Dark tank the same day i12 came live and was interested in everyone's input on them. If I recall correctly, Jebe's threads/posts about DA for tanks garnished the most attention/conversation at that time. He was one of the few people who had a clearer vision of the potential for DA on a tank, and was willing to promote that vision. (Which is why I believe in the end he created his DA guide for tanks.)
Just like now, Dechs is one of the folks who's willing to promote the vision that DA for tanks, built correctly, can be a monster of a tank. Both of them have different viewpoints on how to get there, not horribly diverse, just different.
For example, unlike Nalrok, I don't have Soul Transfer on my DA/DM because I couldn't fit it in to the build. So far I've found that I rarely need it. (Once i19 hits I will be able to fit it back into the build for those rare occasions.) Does that make my build better or worse then Nalrok's? Nope, just different. My build works for me, their build works for them and that's all that really matters.
I will always state that you should take a look at everyone's input on a build and find what works best for you, the individual player. What I think makes the build better doesn't necessarily mean it makes it better for you, or them. Read Jebe's guide. Read Dechs' posts. Read everyone's input on builds and find your own way.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Frost is a subpar attack when it comes to AoE. It's still a melee cone, and won't give you the AoE coverage you'll often want.
As for Ice type damage, it helps but it's not gonna put you on par with Foot Stomp. Not even close. Face it, your powerset needs a buff.
Frost is not 'subpar' for an AoE, if you cant easily fit at least 5 targets inside it, then im sorry, you aren't trying hard enough. It hitting less targets is balanced around that it does more damage then normal AoEs. *Hint you can increase the range of frost to expand the cone*
I like how its somehow 'my powerset', and you still don't understand what a power CLONE is, when they make a power that has the exact or very similar stats as another power. The only change ice melee would need, is to make GIS an actual hard hitting power.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel