There are currently two ways to work an ambush.
Method 1: Place a long-lasting and large aggro bonus toward a target so that NPCs will path across the map to attack that target, ambushing them no matter where they are. This causes the Stalker-Hide uselessness problem, Defenders who can't drop aggro even with the tank taunting, and Masterminds getting slammed while their minions flail at the passing ambushers.
Method 2: Declare a specific location on the map for the ambush to rush toward. In which case they will not aggro on any target along the path they take unless attacked or taunted, and may not run into the target at their destination if the ambush-victim leaves the area of the ambush location.
By all means! Suggest an alternative method of creating an Ambush AI. A different method of designation for targets of any sort. Posting "Hey! Change This! And anyone who disagrees with me is a tool who adores the current method and wants to perform sick unlawful carnal acts with it!" is just going to get you flamed.
-Rachel-
I'm not sure if the game engine allows for it, but in my opinion, the best way to do ambushes would simply be to have the ambush spawn in whatever location the character who triggered it is in, with normal aggro rules. That way, they can still duck aggro if necessary, but it won't be possible to completely avoid the spawn just by leaving the area.
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MM, eh? Suggestion: try using Beguile (Temp power from Pocket D and Tailor day jobs) and see how well that works in that situation.|
Originally Posted by ioshie
I would like to suggest that ambush AI be retooled a bit.
It's a serious immersion killer when an ambush pops up and relentlessly attacks a character despite the fact that all of that character's henchmen have done a significant amount of damage to the ambush. |
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Day_Job_Badges
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Well, to be fair, he did suggest that the reproductive activity that players would perform with the AI would be within the sanctity of marraige, so I don't think it would be unlawful, exactly. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Posting "Hey! Change This! And anyone who disagrees with me is a tool who adores the current method and wants to perform sick unlawful carnal acts with it!" is just going to get you flamed.
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| I know a lot of people want to marry the current ambush AI and have little ambush babies,... |
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LOL I re-read my post and do not I see where I called anyone a derogatory name, not even something as benign as a tool. I was really just trying to be funny; kinda tongue-in-cheek because I know that there are going to be people who disagree with me. And I'm okay with that. In fact, if you could tell me why I'm wrong in not liking the current AI for ambushes I might change my opinion of it.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Posting "Hey! Change This! And anyone who disagrees with me is a tool who adores the current method and wants to perform sick unlawful carnal acts with it!" is just going to get you flamed.
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I also refrained from the use of exclamation points in my post, and I don't really appreciate you suggesting that I meant to use them
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
There are currently two ways to work an ambush.
Method 1: Place a long-lasting and large aggro bonus toward a target so that NPCs will path across the map to attack that target, ambushing them no matter where they are. This causes the Stalker-Hide uselessness problem, Defenders who can't drop aggro even with the tank taunting, and Masterminds getting slammed while their minions flail at the passing ambushers. Method 2: Declare a specific location on the map for the ambush to rush toward. In which case they will not aggro on any target along the path they take unless attacked or taunted, and may not run into the target at their destination if the ambush-victim leaves the area of the ambush location. By all means! Suggest an alternative method of creating an Ambush AI. A different method of designation for targets of any sort. |
I also thought it was clear that my suggestion was specifically about changing the way the aggro of ambushes in method 1 work. I didn't mean to imply that I just want it randomly changed to something else.
My specific suggestion is that the mission holder start with a large aggro bonus that can be broken if the MOBs are aggroed in any standard way that MOBs are aggroed (i.e. taunts, damage, distracting them with a shiny object, etc.).
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Oh, I haven't tried that. In fact I don't think I've earned that with any character yet. Thank you for the suggestion.
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
MM, eh? Suggestion: try using Beguile (Temp power from Pocket D and Tailor day jobs) and see how well that works in that situation.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Day_Job_Badges |
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I understand you were referring to the first of the two methods. I'm pointing out that there is no way to make it work otherwise.|
Originally Posted by ioshie
I am aware of the two ways in which ambushes currently function. I thought it was clear that I was talking specifically about the former from my original post. I don't think there is a problem with the latter.
I also thought it was clear that my suggestion was specifically about changing the way the aggro of ambushes in method 1 work. I didn't mean to imply that I just want it randomly changed to something else. My specific suggestion is that the mission holder start with a large aggro bonus that can be broken if the MOBs are aggroed in any standard way that MOBs are aggroed (i.e. taunts, damage, distracting them with a shiny object, etc.). |
Without a certain amount of Aggro an NPC won't follow a PC beyond a certain distance from it's spawn point. The greater the aggro, the longer the "Leash" so to speak. So the aggro must be capped and then some for the NPC to follow the target from one end of the map to the other.
Without a specific knowledge of how long it takes to get to the PC on the map, the Aggro duration must be incredibly long just in case the NPC gets hung on terrain or has to walk from one end of a very long map to the other.
There is almost no chance for any other player or NPC entity (Pets) to out-aggro the ambush spawns -because- of those two requirements.
So unless you can offer a third method of controlling Ambushes your post devolves into "I don't like this, change it" which is not a Suggestion. Many players and even some of the Devs probably agree that the method is not ideal. But without a third method it's the only one we've got which ensures the Ambush reaches the target players.
As for:
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Originally Posted by ioshie
LOL I re-read my post and do not I see where I called anyone a derogatory name, not even something as benign as a tool. I was really just trying to be funny; kinda tongue-in-cheek because I know that there are going to be people who disagree with me. And I'm okay with that. In fact, if you could tell me why I'm wrong in not liking the current AI for ambushes I might change my opinion of it.
I also refrained from the use of exclamation points in my post, and I don't really appreciate you suggesting that I meant to use them |
-Rachel-
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So long as Divorce exists and homosexuals aren't allowed to marry there is no sanctity in marriage, only hypocrisy.|
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Well, to be fair, he did suggest that the reproductive activity that players would perform with the AI would be within the sanctity of marraige, so I don't think it would be unlawful, exactly.
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Though you're right about it being -lawful- carnal knowledge rather than unlawful.
-Rachel-
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Interesting thought, but I don't see a single target Placate being that useful against an ambush wave.
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
MM, eh? Suggestion: try using Beguile (Temp power from Pocket D and Tailor day jobs) and see how well that works in that situation.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Day_Job_Badges |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Yeah "Single Target" would be a problem. Placate one, go from there?
I'd be willing to give it a shot if I were at home. Normally, my MM just tosses out Force Bubble and lets the Bots open fire. In the 40+% range for Ranged Defence (and certain typed Def) I'm usually good.
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If it were just masterminds it wouldn't be that big of a deal.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Interesting thought, but I don't see a single target Placate being that useful against an ambush wave.
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Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, and Dominators all have these tools or similar ones at their disposal. It's Blasters and Stalkers that should actually be worried.
-Rachel-
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For you to imply I'm not making a suggestion because what I am suggesting is "impossible" seems like a rather limiting view of what can be accomplished the developers of this fine game.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I understand you were referring to the first of the two methods. I'm pointing out that there is no way to make it work otherwise...
...So unless you can offer a third method of controlling Ambushes your post devolves into "I don't like this, change it" which is not a Suggestion |
Granted, I don't have access to the code and this generates two "problems" with making suggestions about changing said code.
1) I will not be able to make a suggestion as specific as you seem to feel I should.
2) Any specific suggestion I make may be impractical because of the way in which things are coded.
So, assuming that you are 100% correct in your assessment of how the ambush AI currently works, are you saying there is a magnitude of aggro placed on the player or a timer or both?
And if it is either or both, why would it be impossible to have a logical statement in the code that goes something like:
Code:
If(not attacked && not taunted) then Aggro magnitude on player = 1000 for 1000 minutes else revert to normal aggro rules end if
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I was paraphrasing your post. Which boiled down to an appeal to ridicule. The logical fallacy that people on the other side of the argument are ridiculous because they're on the other side of the argument.
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I simply stated that there will be people who disagree with me, they will be quite passionate about it, and that no matter how much they like the current system, I do not. You could say that stating my opinion in a forum designated for suggestions is inappropriate, which is fine if you feel that way. I felt the liberty to state my opinion along with my suggestion.
Just to be clear, the rules of the suggestion forum do not state how specific a suggestion has to be. Simply suggesting that something be looked at is by definition, a suggestion. I appreciate you trying to police me on what makes a valid suggestion, but I am fine without your help.
As a small aside, I find it ironic that you felt the need to warn me that my post will insight flames when you seem to be the only person to take issue with it.
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It's not Code. It's a series of mathematical numbers. This isn't C++ we're talking about.|
Originally Posted by ioshie
For you to imply I'm not making a suggestion because what I am suggesting is "impossible" seems like a rather limiting view of what can be accomplished the developers of this fine game.
Granted, I don't have access to the code and this generates two "problems" with making suggestions about changing said code. 1) I will not be able to make a suggestion as specific as you seem to feel I should. 2) Any specific suggestion I make may be impractical because of the way in which things are coded. So, assuming that you are 100% correct in your assessment of how the ambush AI currently works, are you saying there is a magnitude of aggro placed on the player or a timer or both? And if it is either or both, why would it be impossible to have a logical statement in the code that goes something like: Code:
If(not attacked && not taunted) then Aggro magnitude on player = 1000 for 1000 minutes else revert to normal aggro rules end if |
the ambush method is based on an equation rendered from a set of numbers the engine already uses, rather than an in-engine line of code. The engine created the variables and math in use (Aggro on a percentage scale, duration in seconds) and from that the method is derived.
What you're suggesting would be a complete re-work of Aggro and how it's handled, essentially creating a pseudo "AmbushAggro" variable which can be negated through aggressive action.
THAT is a suggestion that, in a forum, we can create constructive debate on. Well done!
Personally, I think it's too much effort for too little net gain, but I wouldn't oppose the change.
-Rachel-
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Mathematical numbers? As opposed to non-mathematical numbers? |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
It's not Code. It's a series of mathematical numbers. This isn't C++ we're talking about.
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I'm just teasing btw.
And I do understand it's not as simple as my example, which was pseudocode, not C++.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
the ambush method is based on an equation rendered from a set of numbers the engine already uses, rather than an in-engine line of code. The engine created the variables and math in use (Aggro on a percentage scale, duration in seconds) and from that the method is derived.
What you're suggesting would be a complete re-work of Aggro and how it's handled, essentially creating a pseudo "AmbushAggro" variable which can be negated through aggressive action. |
I don't believe you know enough about the way this specific game works behind the scenes to say that changing MOB behavior would require "a complete re-work of Aggro and how it's handled."
The game does in fact change its aggro AI on ambushes based on an event that happens in the game.
If a player dies while being ambushed (with method 1 outlined by you above) the MOB instantly reverts to normal aggro behavior.
My suggestion is that a similar "switch" be flipped based on other events that happen.
In addition, the developers have proven that they can change MOB behavior without a complete re-work of aggro. Things such as the fear changes in issue 3 and changes to a MOB's reaction to burn multiple times have proven this.
As an alternate suggestion, it would be nice to be able to turn off ambushes (at least the method 1 kind) at the fateweaver/Hero Corps Field Analyst.
I would like to suggest that ambush AI be retooled a bit.
It's a serious immersion killer when an ambush pops up and relentlessly attacks a character despite the fact that all of that character's henchmen have done a significant amount of damage to the ambush.
I love challenging things in this game, but the fact that m.o.b.'s won't lose agro on the mission holder reminds me of old school fighting game AI.
Remember when you would set the difficulty higher, it was like the computer would just use your inputs to know exactly when to block and when to attack. In other words, cheap tactics to give the illusion of difficulty.
I know a lot of people want to marry the current ambush AI and have little ambush babies, but I don't like it.
Thanks for listening.