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Unfortunately, the most similar power to this is actually Weave, from the Fighting Pool. And that power is a Tier 3 power, require two other power picks and the benefits it gives aren't even as good as the ones you proposed.
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Originally Posted by opprime28
While the current incarnation offers slightly higher defense than other tier 1 or 2 pool powers, it hasn't got the added movement benefits of combat jump or hover, and unlike Manuevers, doesn't affect your team, so the added defense is understandable.
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I think Leadership actually simulates the effects you want, and then in RP it's from being investigative. Besides if you are a detective and your helping others out why wouldn't you share your intel with those who are risking their lives with you?
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Actually not only does weave offer significantly higher defense (it runs between 3.5 for the LOWEST archetype up to 5% for the highest) it also offers heavy resistance to immobilize (48%-73%.) So in essence this is offering a lower defense to all but AoE, with only an equal defense for AoE, and no immob resistance. The 3.5%-5% defense suggestion was meant as the median defense buff, running higher or lower depending on archetype. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Right
Unfortunately, the most similar power to this is actually Weave, from the Fighting Pool. And that power is a Tier 3 power, require two other power picks and the benefits it gives aren't even as good as the ones you proposed.
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Manuevers offers anything from 2.28% on its lowest archetypes to 3.5 at its highest archetypes, but buffs an entire team as opposed to single target. Hover offers between 1.8% and 2.5 defense but also offers the unlimited vertical movement, which is no small benefit (think sniping, travel, combat, etc.)
Combat Jumping offers the same as hover, only it also adds in a mag 8 immob protection and a 200% increase to jump height and an increase to jumping speed. Again, in no way a small matter when it comes to combat.
So in essence you're trading benefits to vertical movement and speed in combat for an additional 1-1.5% defense, or trading 2.28% defense for the entire team for 1.5% defense for yourself.
That being said, I originally had it set at 3% and then 4.5% but felt, after comparing those percentages to the powers above, it wasn't enough.
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Actually, only the 1st power is in any way similar to anything from the Leadership pool, and even then it's solo, not team oriented. |
Originally Posted by DMystic
I think Leadership actually simulates the effects you want, and then in RP it's from being investigative. Besides if you are a detective and your helping others out why wouldn't you share your intel with those who are risking their lives with you?
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Think of it like Batman or the Question or Rorscach. Each of them is good at what they do because they are keenly aware of their enemies and able to deduce their enemies weaknesses, strengths, motives, and methods. This gives them the advantage by allowing them to stay "one step ahead" even when they're behind. Do they sometimes use this to help the team? Sure. But being primarily solo movers, like most detectives, they aren't focused on helping friends so much as get the job done. Shaking down bad guys for information and knowing the details of a location before you enter it (the tier 1 powers) are crucial aspects of most comics detectives. Likewise, being skilled fighters who can identify and use an enemy's weaknesses agianst him is a core aspect (the tier 2 power) and finally, knowing how to get out of a situation when they may be overwhelmed, often by fooling the bad guys, is another key aspect. None of those except the defense bonus are really related back to the leadership pool, EXCEPT maybe the +damage, but that really doesn't fit what's being described here. Likewise, you're still ignoring the ability to find "hidden" objectives and also get yourself out of the really bad situations.
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Thanks for the clarification, it would have been good to know in the original post. You don't really go into much detail for the powers, so it's difficult to judge without making assumptions (is it a click, toggle, end heavy or long recharge, etc) which either go one way or the other.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
Actually not only does weave offer significantly higher defense (it runs between 3.5 for the LOWEST archetype up to 5% for the highest) it also offers heavy resistance to immobilize (48%-73%.) So in essence this is offering a lower defense to all but AoE, with only an equal defense for AoE, and no immob resistance. The 3.5%-5% defense suggestion was meant as the median defense buff, running higher or lower depending on archetype.
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So what happens to Typed defense? Does it sit at the low end, high end, or somewhere in the middle?
To be honest, I'm not a big fan of a pure defense power in the Level Six slot. The lure of even 3.5% defense is enough for people to get Weave, and offering at least that seems hard to swallow to me.
All the other powers... just don't seem all that great to me. The "finder" power, Interrogate, seems completely lackluster to me, especially now that the game does this for you automatically once you get close to completing the objectives (glowies show up once you get down to only a few, and the last spawn of a kill all will show up as well). The AoE Resistance Debuff seems interesting, so that's really the one diamond in the rough to me, depending on how it's done (is it a click or toggle? To Hit check or not?). Subversion... gosh I like the idea of Placate being more widely available, and especially in the form of a power pool. And with Confuse tied in, I do like it a lot. I just don't see it as fitting in this particular pool. It almost seems like a re-work of Smoke Bomb, only better.
In general and on first glance it rubs me the wrong way, and while I do like some of the powers, the set itself just doesn't feel like it holds together thematically. While I respect your views of how an "Ivestigation" hero would work in this game, it just doesn't jive with me. I would lean much more heavily as a debuffing set, something the Power Pools don't have a whole lot of and wouldn't step on the toes of other already established Power Pools.
the +Damage and the +To-Hit would be the enemies weaknesses.
technically Vengeance is the "Oh Carp" power but I see your point. And YEs your right I did forget about the objectives on the map.
To be clear, I'm not against the idea I just thought Leadership would be a good simulation for what you wanted to represent. I see that I was wrong about that.
Hey Mr. Thanks for the replies, btw.
1st, typed defense would be boosted just like it is with weave, manuevers, etc. Like all defense except AoE, would be boosted with the lower percentage. AoE is the only one that gets a slightly higher one, because of it's thematic fit. I actually DID address its slightly higher defense percentages compared to other tier 1s in my first post and why that is the case, but only in one sentence at the end so I can see how you missed it. It's definitely a toggle, with an end cost similar to hover or combat jumping. This is less than manuevers, because manuevers is a team buff, which, btw, is a pure defense power available at level 6, offering only 1% less defense buff. :-)
Interrogate is somewhat lackluster, sort of like Flurry or many other tier one pool powers, but I can see places where I would definitely be glad I had it, especially when soloing or doing task forces. A dark armor scrapper could make very nice use of it on, say, a manticore TF. And while the game shows you the FINAL objective once it's time, being able to go straight to them all without fighting mobs in between and searching around could be very valuable. That being said, I totally agree on it being a situational power.
I originally had an idea for an enhanced "stealth" power at the tier 3 power, which let you mimic a mob's appearance (similar to the halloween costumes) that essentially let you walk through missions without aggroing unless you attack. This could include fooling Rikti drones, bosses with +percp, and even the ability to click glowies. Then decided that that was moving away from detective/investigative work and into a "espionage" pool. The enemy intel power would be a toggle targetted AoE.
Subversion IS sort of like smoke bomb, but with a lower mag and half the duration, similar to how the presence pool mimics some of dark's powers at lower mag and shorter durations.
By the way, Im open to ideas on powers for this kind of set if you have any. This is really just for discussion anyway. Toss them out!
Well... If I had to change it to fit my idea of how an Investigative Hero would work, do the following.
Location Recon:
You've done your homework, and as such, know the details of the locations your foes hide. This gives you added defense against your enemies, especially when it comes to your surroundings. (self + 3.5% defense all types but AoE, 5.5% AoE defense) Available level 6.
-I would make this a click power, able to be made permanent, but still relies on keeping it active. This would make it more of a "location" based power, in that you use it to scope out the area
Interrogate:
Your incredible powers of interrogation allow you to convince a defeated foe to reveal the location of your key mission objectives. This power can only work on a recently defeated foe. (similar to the Reveal accolade, only it displays the locations of glowies and bosses on the mission map. This power does NOT remove the fog of war.) Available level 6.
-This one, I'd probably turn into a click power that targets a defeated foe. Something that demoralizes nearby enemies. So a Melee Ranged Targeted AoE debuff lowering defense, or damage resistance. Alternatively, a Melee Ranged Targeted AoE buff, in the form of damage or accuracy, representing your interrogation of the fallen enemy granting you and your allies a temporary buff.
Enemy Intel:
You've memorized the details of almost every enemy you may face. By concentrating, you can recall their weaknesses, exploiting them in combat. Targetted AoE foe -res 7.5% (must be level 14 and have either Interrogate or Location recon before selecting this power.)
-Yeah, this one I like as is... nothing I would really change about it. I would probably make it a Click power, but really I could take it either way.
Subversion:
When things get tight, your superior insight into your enemies (along with careful pre-planning) can allow you to cause dissention and confusion among them. This may make some momentarily stop their attacks, and some may even turn on each other as they try to regroup. PBAoE Placate (mag 2), 10% chance for mag 2 confuse. Recharge 60 seconds, duration 8 seconds. (Must be at least level 20 and have two other Investigation powers before selecting this power.)
-I do like the Placate ability, but I worry on it's actual effectiveness. As it is, it would be a temporary delay in attacks, at best it would let you escape any aggro you gained and allow a teammate to pick it back up again. The Confuse portion, I wouldn't really want to see. Not because I don't like Confuse, but because I'm wary of adding it to a Power Pool and in AoE formate at that. I'd rather have a chance to Stun, as well as make the power a Targeted AoE. "You throw a smoke bomb at your foes' feet. The burst of light and smoke allow you to escape, as well as possibly stunning your foes."
And... that's about what I would change to the set. You asked for it :P
Not only did I ask for it, I LIKE it.
Location Recon:
I actually love the idea of the clickable defense power. My main reason for making it a toggle was to keep it from being over powered, since, especially at lower levels, endurance can really be an issue that would limit its use. However now with fitness becoming inherent at low levels anyway, I think this would work just fine, and I agree it fits conceptually. I think what I'd likely do in this case though is make it a purely positional defense buff, which really fits your surroundings. So 3.5% defense ranged and melee, 5.5% defense AoE. What do you think of that?
Interrogate:
Hmmm...I could go for this becoming a defense debuff, which would also help with making Enemy Intel more effective. On the other hand, a detective SHOULD be able to more quickly locate/accomplish mission objectives more easily. I wonder if you should instead swap things around a little in this way...
Revamped list:
Location Recon:
Leave as you said, though changing it to a buff to all three positional defenses. Now a clickable power able to be made perma with slotting.
Enemy Intel:
"Your Knowledge of your enemies, keen perception, and careful deduction, along with your skills at stealth allow you to quickly and easily find your objectives, almost as if moving out of the shadows."
Make this a "teleport to next objective" power with a 3 second "invisibility" post telelport, allowing you to get situated safely. The invisibility would drop immediatly if you attack or click a glowie. Give it a 4 minute recharge so you can't just continuously skim through missions from objective to objective since the power couldn't really be made perma. Clickable, four minute recharge "TP to next objective" power.
Interrogate:
Your incredible powers of interrogation allow you to convince a defeated foe to reveal the weaknesses of his allies. By exploiting them in combat you are able to bypass some of their resistances and defense. Post-defeat PBAoE (similar to Fallout) foe -10 % res, -12.5% def (must be level 14 and have eithe Location Recon or Enemy Intel before selecting this power.)
Subversion:
When things get tight, your quick thinking and keen insight can allow you to cause dissention and confusion among your foes. This may make some momentarily stop their attacks, and even shock weaker foes, giving you to time to escape. PBAoE Placate (mag 2), 10% chance for mag 2 stun. Recharge 60 seconds, duration 8 seconds. (Must be at least level 20 and have two other Investigation powers before selecting this power.)
I'd use the same animation used for smoke flash, maybe with an added spectral image in the cloud with a muffled scary voice (think of what Batman or the Shadow would do). I'd keep it PBAoE because this power should be for "oh crap, I've bitten off more than I can chew and need to get out of here" moments that all great detectives face, not for a way to open up a fight like you could do with a targetted AoE.
Does that sound about right to you?
I can't agree with ignoring typed defense on any power. A long while ago, the Devs set out and standardized defensive powers by ensuring they all had both typed and positional defenses. Force Field bubbles used to be all typed, with no positional defense. Foregoing one completely would never work, as those powers would be functionally useless to some characters. It would be much better to have standardized defense across the power.
I like your new Interrogate, and wouldn't see that changed, except in name alone, to Enemy Intelligence. It makes more sense that a power focusing on a defeated foe would tell you how to defeat more of them.
I still insist on Subversion being a Targeted AoE. It would do no good as an opener, as the Placate would have no effect and the chance to stun would be too small to be effective and cause aggro. I could be talked into a short range, just ouside melee, but PBAoE just seems too limiting.
As for your teleporting power... I just can't like it. Thematically it feels off, and Standard Code Rant aside, it seems complicated to code. Instead, this set feels like it could use an attack. Something ranged, maybe. Or something high in damage but higher in recharge. Or even a cone attack with a high end cost as well as high recharge. I'm not really sure what the set needs, but I just can't get into the powers you want there.
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I thought that they -added- positional defense to powersets that used to be only/primarily typed, because positional was more beneficial. Many sets (ninjistu, for example) are still only types defense, but some sets that were typed (ice armor) now offer some pisitional defense. If Im wrong then cool, lets keep it +Def to all.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Right
I can't agree with ignoring typed defense on any power. A long while ago, the Devs set out and standardized defensive powers by ensuring they all had both typed and positional defenses. Force Field bubbles used to be all typed, with no positional defense. Foregoing one completely would never work, as those powers would be functionally useless to some characters. It would be much better to have standardized defense across the power.
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Hmm...to me Enemy Intel is something you'd have prior to entering a mission (how they function, where they congregate, etc.), where interrogating a captured foe would help you defeat his allies (-def, -res). I think I'd keep the names for Interrogate and Enemy Intel the same, myself.
And speaking of Enemy Intel...yeah, we're probably just gonna have to agree to disagree on this power's usefulness. I don't imagine it would be too hard to code, similar to mission teleport power or the coding for objectives that can currently show up on a map, and I can think of many times where, during TFs and soloing, or multi-objective team missions, etc. this power would come in handy. And if nothing else, for the RPers out there (not much of one here, mind you) this power would fit perfectly in this set. "What? How'd you find this boss so fast?" "He was sloppy. I'm good."
I also disagree on the targetted AoE vs. PBAoE. This power should be for when you're surrounded, and I don't really see a reason to make it a click power. It's meant to get you out of the middle of a mob that is gonna attack you, and even that extra second of having to point and click makes no real sense to me, from either a conceptual stand point -or- a playablity one.
So we disagree on two...really on one, and then on whether one should be a targetted click or a PBAoE power. Thanks for the feedback though.
I'm not saying that Subversion should be a location based AoE like Freezing Rain, but a targeted AoE like Fire Ball. Something you throw at a target's feet and that affects those around him as well. The big difference to me is only that I do recall Batman throwing his smoke bombs at enemies as well as his own feet to escape. Plus it would help with the primarily ranged enemies as well as those in melee, as you can use it in both situations.
Perhaps Interrogate could then be a +acc and +dmg buff, simulating the interrogation giving you insight into your foes. Two ways to get the same end result.
I guess we will have to just disagree on Enemy Intelligence. As much as I dislike that kind of power, it's your baby.
Ah, got it. A targetted AoE could make total sense then. I was thinking similar to Freezing rain, etc. Im fine with Subversion being a targetted attack that placates and possibly fears/confuses an enemy and those around him.
I think -def and -res from interrogation, because the captured villain "gives up" the weaknesses of his allies.
Hero guy: "Why is it my lasers were bouncing off you!"
Defeated Villain: "I aint sayin' nothing!"
Hero guy: *raises his fist as if to strike again*
Defeated villain: "OK man! It's these wrist bands. They give us a magnetic shields!"
It doesn't make -him stronger- really, it just tells him how to get around their defenses and hit them more effectively.
Another set of 'investigation pool' ideas that'd be worth considering:
1) Investigate
Your keen eyes spot clues that others miss
Auto +2-5% increased salvage / tip drop rate
1) Singleminded
Once you've spotted a lead, very little distracts you from running it down
Auto mag 4 confuse protection, minor perception debuff resistance (or tohit debuff resistance (whichever one actually exists))
2) Situational Awareness
Your situational awareness makes keeping track of someone you're tailing easier even when they try to shake you
Auto, inherent perception bonus (about the same level as a medium yellow, maybe). Perhaps a very small base accuracy bonus. OR Clicky perception bonus (about the same level as a big yellow, or better) but incredibly hard to perma
3) Surveilance
Oh, look, a way for everyone to get it without recipe salvage--it'd have to be weaker than the VEAT version, probably, but still worthwhile (especially to let the team know when the AV's HP Regen is floored, or how many hitpoints he's got left).
Ok, so I know people have suggested a tracking or detective pool for quite a while, to fit with the concept of a Batman/Dick Tracy type comics characters. Well, here's my take on what could work to serve as a unique, thematically fitting power pool for "detectives."
Investigation
Location Recon:
You've done your homework, and as such, know the details of the locations your foes hide. This gives you added defense against your enemies, especially when it comes to your surroundings. (self + 3.5% defense all types but AoE, 5.5% AoE defense) Available level 6.
Interrogate:
Your incredible powers of interrogation allow you to convince a defeated foe to reveal the location of your key mission objectives. This power can only work on a recently defeated foe. (similar to the Reveal accolade, only it displays the locations of glowies and bosses on the mission map. This power does NOT remove the fog of war.) Available level 6.
Enemy Intel:
You've memorized the details of almost every enemy you may face. By concentrating, you can recall their weaknesses, exploiting them in combat. Targetted AoE foe -res 7.5% (must be level 14 and have either Interrogate or Location recon before selecting this power.)
Subversion:
When things get tight, your superior insight into your enemies (along with careful pre-planning) can allow you to cause dissention and confusion among them. This may make some momentarily stop their attacks, and some may even turn on each other as they try to regroup. PBAoE Placate (mag 2), 10% chance for mag 2 confuse. Recharge 60 seconds, duration 8 seconds. (Must be at least level 20 and have two other Investigation powers before selecting this power.)
That's my take on it. You have everything the good detectives from comics have: the ability to get valuable information from your captives, awareness of your enemies and their surroundings, and the ability to identify and exploit the weaknesses of your foes when things get sticky. Most of these offer unique benefits which, in the spirit of great comics detectives, primarily help the individual player as opposed to the team. The only power I was a little unsure of was Location Recon; with that, I wasn't sure whether to have the added AoE defense (because you can identify traps and obstacles) or give it a mild protection against fear, sleep, and holds (since your mind is so sharpened to real threats), but thought the latter might be over powered for a tier 1 power pool power. While the current incarnation offers slightly higher defense than other tier 1 or 2 pool powers, it hasn't got the added movement benefits of combat jump or hover, and unlike Manuevers, doesn't affect your team, so the added defense is understandable.