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You can read the maximum amounts of Regeneration and Recovery here: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Health_Regeneration|
Originally Posted by nunix
What's the absolutely limit-best you can get for Regeneration and Recovery? What's average? Trying to figure out how my build and slotting stacks up; right now Regeneration is at 1.52% and Recovery at 2.99%.
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You, however, won't be able to get to those limits without external buffs.
Answering what's average is also kind of hard.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=2949566
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...8&postcount=22
Regeneration and Recovery are tied to your maximum HP and Maximum stamina. A regeneration scrapper, for example, will probably be averaging around 34~40hp per second at level 50 depending on how they slotted. A stalker, which has less maximum health, will be regenerating a lot less.
There are some things you can do to really improve your overall regeneration amount, such as make dull-pain permanent. Dull Pain has a base recharge timer of of about 6 minutes, with an effect time of 2 minutes. You can get Dull-Pain down to about 3 minutes or so just on native recharge, and then shoot for a higher recharge time with IO boosts: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Perma With accolades, you can be running around with the Scrapper HP cap pretty much all the time.
Also, if you're trying to improve your /Regen, about the last thing you need to worry about is your regeneration and recovery. The name of the game is recharge, recharge, recharge and defense. If this is just intellectual curiosity, of course, then never mind. 
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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The thing is.. it's /Regeneration. If you're just going to ignore the regen numbers, why bother? -.- (if I could change the powerset - and AT! - of this character, I would, but I can't, so might as well work with what I got) So I figure, if regenning is what it's supposed to do - whether or not they're "useful" - I'm curious as to what good slotted numbers are.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Also, if you're trying to improve your /Regen, about the last thing you need to worry about is your regeneration and recovery. The name of the game is recharge, recharge, recharge and defense. If this is just intellectual curiosity, of course, then never mind.
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The default regeneration is already mighty nice without help. Then you have four great click powers that benefit massively from recharge. Add in Tough and some good defense from pools and IOs, and you've got something that will blow away the survivability of anyone that focuses purely on the regeneration aspect of regeneration.|
Originally Posted by nunix
The thing is.. it's /Regeneration. If you're just going to ignore the regen numbers, why bother? -.- (if I could change the powerset - and AT! - of this character, I would, but I can't, so might as well work with what I got) So I figure, if regenning is what it's supposed to do - whether or not they're "useful" - I'm curious as to what good slotted numbers are.
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Now, if you WANT to play a /Regen with a really high regeneration rate, that's one thing. My Katana/Regen has more regeneration and less recharge than would be optimal. Fun trumps everything, and if you think a high regeneration rate would be the most fun, go for it. But if you're just looking to make the character strong, I'd urge you to not be swayed by the mere NAME of the power set and the fact that it gives you a high regeneration rate. There is so much more to it than that.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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...argh, yes, I realise all that. So, since you have a /Regen scrapper.. would you mind telling me what its base + power numbers are? At this point it's pure curiousity and maybe a little bit of build tweaking. |
Originally Posted by Werner
The default regeneration is already mighty nice without help. Then you have four great click powers that benefit massively from recharge. Add in Tough and some good defense from pools and IOs, and you've got something that will blow away the survivability of anyone that focuses purely on the regeneration aspect of regeneration.
Now, if you WANT to play a /Regen with a really high regeneration rate, that's one thing. My Katana/Regen has more regeneration and less recharge than would be optimal. Fun trumps everything, and if you think a high regeneration rate would be the most fun, go for it. But if you're just looking to make the character strong, I'd urge you to not be swayed by the mere NAME of the power set and the fact that it gives you a high regeneration rate. There is so much more to it than that. |
When I built and played this character originally, numbers were still hidden, so knowing how much regeneration you were actually getting was a little bit of a shot in the dark. But now we have numbers! It seems like it'd be a neat thing to know if, say, 70% of Regeneration scrappers played at maybe ~5% using just passives and maybe Integration. if you then found you were at 2% you'd know either 1) you should probably find a way to increase yours, or 2) maybe people are over-spending on regeneration (if your survivability is as good or better than theirs).
Additionally: this can kind of tell me at what point extra regeneration isn't going to do me much good. If someone can say, "Anything over 5% regeneration isn't doing you as much good as 5% increase in defense," that's useful information. But nowhere have I seen hard numbers for the regen and recovery ideal rates (for any AT, let alone /Regen scrappers), which is weird, since.. they're right there, and easy to compare.
Well, I pretty much agree with je saist's answer, which is why I hadn't given my own. I didn't mean to be evasive. I apologize.
I'd say that your average Regen scrapper is going to at least three slot the regeneration powers and pick up most of the hit point accolades. That puts you at 500%, and healing 32 hit points per second. Most will pick up and slot Health as well, and you're at 580% regeneration and 37 hit points per second. You might also grab Physical Perfection, and while you wouldn't actually do this, you could three slot for health, and be at 620% and heal 40 hit points per second. While Dull Pain is up, that climbs to 60 hit points per second. Click Instant Healing at the same time and you're at 1620% regeneration and 158 hit points per second.
Now, your average /Regen probably isn't going to three slot everything with health that way, and might not grab Physical Perfection. But your average IO'd /Regen is going to pick up a few hit point bonuses and regeneration bonuses, even when that's not the target. So I'm going to say that an average IO'd Regen is probably healing between 40 and 60 hit points per second full time, with bursts over 150 depending on use of click powers.
You say "nowhere have I seen hard numbers for the regen and recovery ideal rates... which is weird, since.. they're right there, and easy to compare." Well, what do we MEAN by ideal? What's an ideal build? That's very, very difficult to answer, and no answer is going to be "hard" data, it's just going to be someone's opinion on what the best build is. Best build I've examined closely was a Katana/Regen build that Umbral put together and Val Blademaster played that beat four AVs (edit: at the same time) with no temps, no inspirations. It regenerates 55 hit points per second with Dull Pain up (Dull Pain is perma), and 135 hit points per second (edit: with Instant Healing). For recovery, it's recovering 3.97 endurance per second. So I could reasonably argue that those are "ideal" numbers, though people could just as reasonably argue for other numbers.
Ideal recovery, I think, is at least a little easier to close in on than ideal regeneration. To me, ideal recovery is just enough that you never run out of endurance. If you know your attack chain, and your slotting, and how frequently you use certain powers, you can get a pretty good idea how much recovery is enough. As a ballpark figure, I'd shoot for about 3 EPS higher than your toggles, but that's very rough. Some attack chains use less than that, some use more.
Edit: Oh, sorry, didn't say what my own numbers were. I'm at 58 hit points per second with Dull Pain down, 74 hit points per second with it up, and 154 hit points per second with Instant Healing running as well. That's with an I12 build IO'd to the gills... with I12 powers and IOs.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Okay! That's some good information. =) Couple things...
You're quoting regeneration rates in the 100%s and then 1000%s.. are you just adding up the power description numbers? I was looking at the Powers / Combat Abilities sheet, which are all generally <1% and then add up. It's also why I wasn't worried too much about actual HP/sec, because that'll vary a little bit based on your current total. So the numbers you quoted me for your guy are interesting (since my character is at 21.something HP/sec in passive-only regeneration, which is less than half of yours!). Dull Pain just ups HP total, doesn't affect the regen or recovery % numbers, which is what my focus was.
re: ideal: that was poor word choice on my part, at least without further explanation. I mean something like.. hmm. It's /Regeneration, right? Making the most out of your powers. If my regen rate is 20 hp/sec, and everyone else with the same powerset is running 60 hp/sec, I know I'm underperforming on average. Now, thanks to the difficulty settings, I can play at a lower setting and have plenty of fun with my underperforming build. But I'm still not getting everything I could out of the powerset. (for clarification: I mean now I know I'm getting beat for reasons other than substandard regeneration 
The numbers on that AV-beating thing are useful! My Dull Pain isn't perma, but with it up and Instant Healing I'm at 148 hp/sec. But.. I know I can't take an AV, certainly not without temps or even inspirations. So that extra 13 hp/sec isn't really doing me any good, most likely, which is fun to know, even if I don't decide to do anything about it.
Wanted to go back and explain a bit on why we point towards Recharge Recharge Recharge. I borrowed a friends Regen Scrapper to sort of make my point here, since the avatar isn't really IO'd out.
With Dull Pain
With Dull Pain / Instant Healing
Alright, in base mode, this avatar is kicking around 40hp / sec. Around 37% of that is Integration, with Fast Healing giving around 22%, and Health around 11%. This is a little bit above average for a tweaked SO build, but not really that great on IO levels.
However, the straight regeneration isn't the entire story. The Regeneration Scrapper set also get a power called Reconstruction.
At level 50 it has a recharge time of 1 minute with a base of 334.66. If you slam Reconstruction into the ED limits with SO it will top you off around 600~650 health every 31~34 seconds.
600 divided by 34 is about 17 :: 650 divided by 31 is about 20.
So, Reconstruction, in terms of regeneration, would be an additional 17~20hp per second. That's a substantial amount compared to the stock regeneration rate. That actually is adding another 40%-50% to the base regeneration rate. On this avatars base build, that's an effective regeneration rate of around 60 hp / sec. Now, if you've got Dull Pain running perma, this takes what would be on this avatar a 63hp/sec regen rate to 80hp/sec. As you lower the recharge rate on your powers, the amount of effective regeneration you get increases just on the base heal.
Now, if you apply this to Dull Pain, things get even more disgusting.
Dull pain, at 50, has a base heal of about 535, which means you'll be topping 1,000 hp per heal when you cap into ED. Point of fact, 96.9% boost is 1054 hit points healed.
If you get the base-recharge down to perma, which is about 2 minutes, your effective regen rate will be 1054 hp every 120 seconds. That's only about 8~9 hp per second regen. That's about the same as another Fast-Healing, at least on this particular avatar.
If you also have IO boosts to healing, you can easily increase the effective regeneration of both Reconstruction and Dull-Pain.
Hopefully this explains why recharge is a desirable IO boost to seek after on /regeneration builds.
For the percentages, I'm reporting what Mids' reports, which is based on the idea that a character's base rate of regeneration is 100%. I never taught myself the "real numbers" version of it.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Basic regeneration (i.e. 100% +regen) is .42%. If you ever want to convert from the numbers that many of the Scrappers here use to the numbers you use, simply multiple the given percent (such as 500%) by .42 and that will give you the total in terms you are comfortable with (which is hp/sec in percent form, if you were curious): 500% regen = 400% +regen = 2.1% hp/sec. Converting from real hp/sec regeneration to percent regen is a bit tougher though because it requires you know what the hp is at (though, most */Regen builds manage perma-DP and capped hp with DP up, so it's safe to assume that most builds operate under an assumption of 2409.5 max hp). All you have to do, once you figure out the max hp, is simply divide the given number (such as 60 hp/sec) by the max hp (assume 2409.5) to find the percent (2.49%).|
Originally Posted by nunix
You're quoting regeneration rates in the 100%s and then 1000%s.. are you just adding up the power description numbers? I was looking at the Powers / Combat Abilities sheet, which are all generally <1% and then add up. It's also why I wasn't worried too much about actual HP/sec, because that'll vary a little bit based on your current total. So the numbers you quoted me for your guy are interesting (since my character is at 21.something HP/sec in passive-only regeneration, which is less than half of yours!). Dull Pain just ups HP total, doesn't affect the regen or recovery % numbers, which is what my focus was.
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The issue with simply aiming for hp in percent form is that it is largely a meaningless measure. We don't measure incoming damage in how much of our health it takes as a percentage; we measure it as a real number. Because of this, it's simply easier to convert into the real number and use that (real numbers will actually do this for you if you look to the right of the given percentage), especially when dealing with overall survivability that factors in defense and resistance.
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| re: ideal: that was poor word choice on my part, at least without further explanation. I mean something like.. hmm. It's /Regeneration, right? Making the most out of your powers. |
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| The numbers on that AV-beating thing are useful! |
If you honestly want to be given numbers on what you should aim for in a build, I can give you some very explicit numbers that I give to anyone that asks:
Regen: at least 400% +regen but no more than 500% +regen (which pretty much means slotting Integration fully, giving a token slot or two to FH, and taking the +regen procs); any more +regen and you're going to be pulling resources away from more important things to bolter something you already have plenty of
Recharge: as much as superhumanly possible; for an IO build, I would, at a minimum, get at least 55% +rech (which, combined with 95% +Rech slotting in DP and Hasten, will get DP perma), but there isn't really a top end and there isn't really a bottom end; all that matters is that you get +rech if you can
Defense: the same as recharge, though it does come with a bottom end; anything less than 15-20% +def to any specific category is going to do you no good because it's not going to ameliorate the spikes in damage that have a tendency to beat down */Regen; if you can only get 10% defense (generally meaning a very low budget or an SO build), it's just not worth it and you could spend those resources more effectively elsewhere; for a top end, there isn't one, but the "good" spectrum depends on your primary: the sword primaries don't really need more than 27.5-30% +def because of Parry/DA while all of the other primaries want as much as possible though if you're getting more than 25-35% +def (depends on budget) chances are you're spending a lot of resources focusing on defense when you could get a better blend of def and rech with those same resources
The important thing to remember through all of this is that */Regen isn't a primarily regeneration based powerset any more (that mantle has largely passed to WP, though, even then, WP is more of a "regeneration augmented by diversified mitigation"), and you're serving yourself better by avoiding incoming damage to allow your damage recovery (which means your regen as well as Recon's and DP's heal). If you need a comic book example, Wolverine doesn't count exclusively on his Healing Factor to get through a fight; he actively works to avoid getting hit so that he doesn't have to regenerate from a wound (unless there is some major tactical advantage to doing so). Apply that same logic to your character, and it makes just as much sense (both in and out of character).
If you really want to have massive amounts of regeneration and recovery you could hit dull pain, instant healing, pop 18, yes 18 small break frees and then hit rest and you'll be at the regeneration cap lol.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
My Claws/Regen is at 40.5 HP/sec regen without Dull Pain or Instant Healing. His recovery rate is 3.73 end/sec. His recharge speed is 60%, which isn't great but I have Hasten so I'm happy with that. He's also soft capped to S/L, which helps his survival a lot. I've only tested him against Vandal so far, but he mowed down that AV without any problems. He can easily survive against Devouring Earth Monsters as well. He can't defeat them, but they can't defeat him either 
Contact me in-game: @CheeseSlicer
Umbral: that was a fantastic post! Answered pretty much everything I was wondering about.
Actually, I just started a couple of new characters; my Broadsword/Regeneration character has been essentially my only character for 4+ years. Been at 50 forever, and every now and then I resub for a month or two, mess around a bit. I'd forgotten how cruddy the basic regeneration is for everyone else, nevermind recovery. Even if it's not a huge help in the middle of an AV fight, it's nice just for a quality-of-life thing.
Part of my problem is that when I started the character, Instant Healing was still a toggle, and was for quite awhile. So /Regeneration has always been "heal all the damage, all the time!" in my mind. The talk about relying more on Reconstruction and Dull Pain - still regeneration, but more "regen.. now!" - helps me reorient my brain as to the best way to play the set.
I know my defenses suck pretty bad, since I have Parry and.. that's it. ;D I guess I'll have to give in and get Tough/Weave. =/
To soft cap Melee using one shot of Parry, don't you only need about 24% Melee defense before Parry hits? With my BS/WP scrapper, I have Parry on auto so it swings at every opportunity. My BS/WP has some amazing survivability just by using Parry as my first attack in every mob. Saying that, I suppose it also depends how you slot Parry.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
If you really want to have massive amounts of regeneration and recovery you could hit dull pain, instant healing, pop 18, yes 18 small break frees and then hit rest and you'll be at the regeneration cap lol.
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Only problem with this is you are in 'Only Effecting Self' mode. Not able to attack, but you can be attacked.
(PS, I have tried this =) had an Emp follow me around and CM me, it was fun
but didn't do anything because I couldn't attack)And what happened to your rep Santorican :O!?
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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It depends on your slotting on Parry/DA. Parry and DA provide 15% +def(melee, lethal), so, without any +def enhancement in the power, you need 30% to get softcapped. With a single level 50 LotG +rech in there (what I tend to use), you only need 27.6%. If you're fully slotted for it (56%), you only need 21.6%. It's actually rather common to see people short slotting Parry/DA's +def slotting (either completely forgoing enhancing it or only going with the token +def from the LotG +rech) because most people would rather slot it like an attack (while ignoring recharge) because that's really what it is. It already stacks with itself to such an extent that, if you really need it, you can get as much defense as you need anyway.
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Originally Posted by SpikyShane
To soft cap Melee using one shot of Parry, don't you only need about 24% Melee defense before Parry hits?
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Originally Posted by Umbral
It depends on your slotting on Parry/DA
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Originally Posted by SpikyShane
I suppose it also depends how you slot Parry.
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Contact me in-game: @CheeseSlicer
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I was simply quantifying it, though.
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Originally Posted by SpikyShane
I already gathered that
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We make a good quantifying duo. High five!
Contact me in-game: @CheeseSlicer
I always played my Claws/Regen to regen health faster than they could damage me. My base regen is 33.1 hps/second and recovery is 4.07/second. With Dull Pain and Instant healing on, my max hps go to 2265 and regen is 126.8 hps/second.
I run with 5 toggles on and never run out of end. Defenses are only 5-10%, but with reconstruction recharging every 30seconds, and MoG every 2min (which puts me at the resistance cap to everything except Psi), I havent had any probs.
Granted that's without any purple sets in the build. I am IOing it out, but havent got the purps yet. I still have a 31.3% global haste (+hasten) and a +68% ACC bonus and +13.8% to hit.
I've done STF, Hammi Raids, GMs, AVs and this toon holds his own. There are holes to fill, but generally I can take an opponent out before he damages me. Love the /Regen...
To echo what Warner said regarding what is "ideal," fun, and on Umbrals diversity of building for survival: my stone/dm tank has 55hp/sec without Earth's Embrace and 77hp/sec with (not adding in Siphon Life). Then factor in about 100% rech with hasten running for Siphon Life and it's hard to kill. Slotting is rather... unconventional and not damaging (a lot of pounding slugfest and mocking baratements), but affords a *constant* level of regen on very high resistances + Siphon Life. He's just fun to take on TFs to taunt and soak damage.
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AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
What's the absolutely limit-best you can get for Regeneration and Recovery? What's average? Trying to figure out how my build and slotting stacks up; right now Regeneration is at 1.52% and Recovery at 2.99%, both of those for passive, no-toggles. Integration brings Regeneration up to 2.54%, and with that + Instant Healing it tops out at 6.67%.