AT Suggestion: Leader/Marauder

I honestly have -no- problem with you, personally, whatsoever. your ideas sometimes seem conceptually off, or they don't work within the framework of in-character interaction.

As for why I chose Regen for plants and Gravity/Invuln or Gravity/Energy Aura...

I was trying to come up with 1 set to match each of the assault sets currently available to dominators (Earth, Electric, Ice, Fire, Energy, Psionic, thorns) and by match I mean thematically. Fire for fire, Earth for Earth, etc. So I went to the control sets and paired up all I could. I was left with Thorns/Plant/Something and Gravity/Energy/Something, since we don't have Energy Control the logical comparison was gravity, since both involve using a force rather than a substance.

Now with the Control sets in mind I looked into the Defensive pairings. For Gravity it was fairly easy: Consigliere. Some of the Family and Mook bosses are Invuln/Grav enemies. It also makes sense, thematically, that a person manipulating Force would take less damage from physical attacks their could effect, while not taking much less damage from Energy effects.

As for the Plant/Regen I looked to the idea of New Growth and Regrowth. Add that to the Tree of Life power from straight Plant Control... Well it seemed to fit.

As for what to do about people who don't want to have specific powers in a set... There's nothing you can do. but the same can be said for -every- powerset. I don't, generally, use Grant Cover from Shield Defense. I don't like Snipe attacks of any kind, really. I think Repel is just about useless in most cases... but they're still there. I guess the answer is: If you want to make a plant controller who flings thorns but doesn't have Regeneration: Make a Plant Dominator.

As for the Inherent: I'm not married to it, at all. But do you think the other half of it, a big self damage boost (possibly bigger than it is now) would make it worthwhile? The idea was that the Marauder was more careful alone, expending less energy, almost stalking it's prey. But when the Marauder has support it unleashes it's fury on it's foes.

-Rachel-

I resent that. You say 'ideas' but I only recall the 1 you seem at odds with. Even then, you forget that the idea itself wasn't 'conceptually off', just something you didn't agree with nor do I recall anyone saying that idea wouldn't work in some way. As far as I could tell, the idea worked, just no one wanted it.

Actually, the Consigliere weren't Inv/Grav. In fact, no one in the Family uses Invulnerability, they use Super Reflexes and at that, SR/Grav/Super Strength is their bag.

Besides that, I don't think Invulnerability, in particular, is Force. Sure, there's Force Mastery but if I recall, it only has the 1 shield (Temp Invul) and the rest are really force powers.

The difference is, Shield Defense's Grant Cover is a part of the set. Snipes are apart of those sets, etc. The proposed idea is a combo of 2 different sets. IMO, it'd be akin to making a Dual Pistols and Dark melee combo for Dark Assault and if they don't fit your concept you can just take what does.

On the other hand, Regeneration is purely healing damage. The only logical paring that has no thematic discrepancies is Empathy. Because you can heal and buff yourself's regen and pass the same ability to an ally.

But of course, this is all my opinion. Making a melee/(de)buff AT would have a similar issue. What support powers would one pair with Invulnerability or Super Reflexes (maybe gadgets) or what armor set would one pair with Storm Summoning?

You're right. And I was wrong. I should've checked Paragonwiki for that. Coulda sworn....

Actually It has PFF, Temp Invuln, repulsion bomb, repulsion field, and Force of Nature, a clone of Unstoppable complete with the Unstoppa-crash.

Not quite fair since you're adding powers with Redraw and a physical model as compared to two sets which wouldn't cause redraw of each other, share (to some degree) a thematic attachment, and the same basic color.
Regen also works for the Nature Alteration set since you can cut back a tree or a bush or pull up a weed and it will grow back unless you just -kill- it outright. The only "Perfect" match for Plant control would be...

What? No! Not Empathy. Plant Armor, which was a great powerset suggestion. Where the heck did you get Empathy for a Control/Defense set?!

Oh. That's. Yeah. That's an utterly different suggested AT. This thread isn't designed for that... Though, in response to what you've put up? Electric Melee/Storm, SR/Gadgets, Energy Melee/Force Fields. Or are you referring to a Melee/Def/Buff AT? The biggest problem for a melee/def/buff AT is that it would have to supply itself with armor, as much as anyone else. Try making a scrapper and picking only 4 powers out of your secondary, then see how long you'll last at level 30+.

Control effects, on the other hand, are a form of active defense. Taking a target out of the fight while you handle his friends is effectively negating all of his damage output. It takes end to keep locking him down, but other than that...

-Rachel-

Oh, yeah I forgot about FoN. But most of the time I forget about Unstoppable too >_>

But the rest of those powers are 'force' powers...as in 'Force Field' powers.

I was talking about any powersets, not just control, defense or buff. The only thematic paring, IMO, that requires no explaining, no customization of colors, etc for Regeneration is Empathy. Both tend to boil down to healing on a molecular level or something.

As for talking about a Melee/(de)buff AT, eh, I guess I can shut up about it. Although I feel this AT moves close to the same team niche as the melee/buff but brings team multiplier into the mix...it'd basically be an offensive corruptor with melee and armor or a team-friendly scrapper with buffs/debuffs.

Not to say the Marauder AT isn't good but controls can fail and there's a point where more control doesn't help as much...that said, Doms come close to this. With IOs and power selections, they can be pretty tough (i.e. doesn't shatter at a light breeze) while still bringing the damage and controls.

1. Animal bodies - well you walked into that suggestion not caring about it anyway. It's a given you wouldn't care for anything not the same as your opinion.

2. Rainbow blast - any talk is better than nothing. really, I didn't care for my idea either but I do like discussing them. but you let it die...

3. 'Armor' armor - dunno why you'd refer to that. I was simply acknowledging others arguments on the subject. So not sure how that lacks thematic focus or in-character interaction...

4. Phase armor - ah forgot about that. but I'm not sure we ever got past the 'phase = godmode' argument. IMO, yes, it's 'effective' but it's not end-all-be-all. And armor sets are built to be 'effective' so...

5. Phantom Aura - see, that set of mine is a good example of what I'd like all suggestion sets to be. OP has a specific theme in mind, forms a suggestion and everyone comes in and posts their opinion and shapes it into something that isn't crap. I'm not afraid to admit what I 1st suggested there was bad but the result was not-as-bad...

6. Plant Armor - still don't think that set really stands out. A mez toggle isn't unique either.

In conclusion...meh, I thought you were talking about my 'Suggestions'. That said, I'm still not sure what 'in-character interaction' means in the context of what you said...but I try to keep my 'ideas' as unique as possible. If it's not something impossible with what we have, I don't even bother posting it...

Actually... After looking over the scrapper's AT multipliers this wouldn't be that bad an idea... Frustrating, for all the members of the AT throwing off 1/2 damage for every ranged attack, but they'd make up for the increased survivability of range with the lower damage values.

However it would probably suck enough that people wouldn't want to play it, most times. And so!



-Rachel-

The topic at hand was a Melee/Ranged and Control/Defense AT. Bringing up Empathy just came out of left field, that's all.

The fact that controls fail is the only thing which makes defenses on this AT viable. I'm giving the AT scrapper defensive numbers, but only the "Core" powers of the set which lowers it's overall survivability, greatly. It's only while a foe is held or otherwise controlled that it's a win for the Marauder/Leader. The fact that controls can, and will miss, is what balances the AT for it's ranged capabilities. Especially considering the values I'm giving it.

Actually I find it thematically inappropriate for a superhero game on multiple levels. Firstly! Name the number of animal superheroes across all comics. Compare and Contrast to the number of Human and Humanoid superheros across all comics. The number of four legged heroes is minuscule. So small, in fact, that it would be irresponsible to spend time on animating every attack in the game, all the movement modes, and transferring even a third of the costume options over to the animal model. Putting Dual Blades in a dog's mouth does not a hero make. The second part of this point is located in the last paragraph.

Without external input from multiple sources I've found that "Bumping" a thread or bringing it up only yields in frustration on all parts. There wasn't enough interest in it to warrant further discussion.

It was an example of one of the times where I agreed with you, as a contrast to some of the others. Please read the note I put under the link.

Just something we will forever disagree on.

Agreed. And had I not been busy I'd have leapt all over this one with joy and glee. but as I said, RL issues. Another point to compare which shows I don't have a problem with you, in particular.

Difference of opinion. *shrugs* No other set has the same numbers or design. Plus the quick branch melee thing was nice, I thought!

In character interaction refers to the roleplaying or story aspects of the game. This is where Facepalm Defense comes into play or the animal form discussion. From an in-character standpoint the ridiculous nature of these suggestions brings to question the seriousness of all other plot elements. A Dog with a broadsword in it's mouth or a cannon strapped to it's back can defeat Lord Nemesis. So why did the US military fail so spectacularly on Brass Monday? "It's a super dog!" Not if it's got the "Natural" Origin.

-Rachel-

Just emphasizing that point so you don't go feeling what you're saying is fact but nothing more than an opinion (and I'm not gonna get goaded into a counter argument over a close-minded opinion). Don't even need to go pointing out the list of animal heroes or heroes that can transform into animal or animal-like creatures or animal/monster enemies....

The point was, Plant isn't conceptually linked to regen. In that regard, 'Nature Alteration' is more conceptually confining than a similar set fusion like Fire Melee+Fire Blast = Fiery Assault.

While Plant Control isn't? Just explain Nature Alteration's heal/regen the same way you explain Tree of Life.

Yeah, it requires explaining. That was what was being discussed.

Fiery Assault doesn't require explaining: you use fire to hurt people. Earth Alteration: you augment earth in many ways. Nature Alteration is different because Plants are not intrinsically associated with Regeneration.

But the same goes for Gravitic Alteration (just because you control gravity, doesn't make you invulnerable...it requires explaining) and Energy Alteration (that also uses gravity control).

That said, there's also the option of just renaming the armor powers of this AT or just make new ones. Armor powers are probably the easiest to make anyway (just requires a looping fx around the body).