Doing a little fact checking, regarding enhancements
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2010-05-11 04:43 in Player Questions
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When you're determining "power availability", you need to factor in the animation time of the power in question because powers don't begin recharging until they finish animating.|
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
The recharge time drops to 5.26 seconds, which is a 47% drop in recharge time, or a 47% improvement in power availability.
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Assuming the 2 second animation time is ignoring Arcanatime (since you seem to be trying to keep this simple), the actual improvement in power availability would be once every 12 second to once every 7.26 seconds, which is only 39.5% greater availability.
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Perhaps you should clarify that this does not really apply to Controllers/Dominators, as their holds are more than enough to permanently lock down even bosses unslotted. (usually 8 sec recharge, 22.4 sec duration for Controllers, 17.9 sec duration for Dominators)
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Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
Furthermore, neither healing nor attack powers are at the top in the list of powers that become better through enhancements; powers that gain the most through enhancements are mezzes, such as holds and stuns. An unenhanced hold such as freeze ray in the ice blast set will at lower levels not even keep an even level lieutenant permanently held, when it even hits at all, which it often will not do when operating with just the base slot. A fully slotted, skillfully enhanced freeze ray will rarely miss its target and it can keep many higher level bosses permanently locked down, after two initial castings that hit the boss (Purple Bres, Overseers, Gunslingers, and Elite Paragon Protectors, I'm looking at you!). As an aid to the survival of the relatively squishy character classes that can choose the ice blast set, there is currently a huge difference in utility between an unenhanced and a fully enhanced freeze ray.
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Icelock - Ice/Storm Controller
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I'm not sure if (at least part of) this analysis is meaningful. By that I mean its arbitrary to "account" for the strength of powers in this way. If I had a 100 point heal with zero cast time (to eliminate cast/recharge issues for the moment) and 10s recharge, and I slotted it to +100% heal and +100% recharge, its overall performance becomes:
100h/10s x (1 + 1) x (1 + 1) = 10 h/s x 2 x 2.
Its a bit misleading to say that when you multiply 10 times 2 times 2, the 2's have a greater effect on the total than the 10 does.
Its meaningful to state that enhancements can increase your abilities by a factor of four or more, but I think its a meaningless side-track to assert which one is "responsible" for the greater part of the whole.
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Umbral: You're right that I kept Arcanatime out to make things simpler. I should probably mention it anyways, though; it does affect calculations to some extent.
On the animation issue, I've read the claim many times that the animation had to finish before a power would start recharging. But, that never seemed to be the case to me, at least on casual in-game inspection of how powers seemed to work. So, I went ahead and did a crude test tonight about that issue using Neutrino Bolt, which others can (and hopefully will) replicate. The steps I took and the results are given below:
1. I looked at the enhancement screen on my level 24 dark/rad defender (who is using level 25 SOs only, with no IOs), and found the cast time with a single SO recharge enhancer set at 1.11 seconds.
2. I calculated the Arcanatime as 1.32 seconds for casting Neutrino bolt, given a 1.11 second listed casting time. The formula I used in a spreadsheet was [RoundUp(CastTime / 0.132) + 1] * 0.132
3. I found an online stopwatch at www.online-stopwatch.com.
4. I took my dark/rad defender to Steel Canyon and found a level 17 boss as a test subject. I targeted the boss, then I put Neutrino bolt on auto-fire, switched to the online stopwatch, and started the stopwatch. I waited several seconds (7.342 seconds, according to the stopwatch), hit "pause", then went to COX and stopped my defender from attacking.
5. I went into the combat log and confirmed that six Neutrino bolts were fired during the period of time being measured by the stopwatch, with a little extra time at the beginning and a little extra time at the end because of time lost swapping between the browser window and the game*.
* I played in "Windowed mode" to make swapping easier
6. I divided 7.342 by 1.32 and found out that 5.56 neutrino bolts would have been fired in that time interval if neutrino bolts had been chained one after another, such that the attack started recharging virtually instantly (or very shortly) after it was cast.
Summing up the results, I undoubtedly lost some fraction of a second by switching back and forth between the browser and COX, and so the measurements weren't perfect. And, the results of this crude test are only for one power, and so I can't definitively state that they are true for all powers. However, it is mathematically impossible for Neutrino Bolt to fire six times in 7.342 seconds if the animation has to finish before powers begin to recharge; the only way these results can be explained is if Neutrino Bolt begins recharging before the attack animation finishes (or perhaps before it starts, although that would need to be tested).
Edit: Wording change, reflects the results a little better.
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You raise a valid point.
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Originally Posted by Icelock
Perhaps you should clarify that this does not really apply to Controllers/Dominators, as their holds are more than enough to permanently lock down even bosses unslotted. (usually 8 sec recharge, 22.4 sec duration for Controllers, 17.9 sec duration for Dominators)
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I was thinking of healing efficiency as a kind of final value, or implicit performance ceiling, and trying to parse out the relative importance of its determinants. Attempting to sort out the relative importance of influences on a performance ceiling, or dependent variable, is not an uncommon thing to attempt in some fields, which is why I scratched my head at first after reading your feedback. After some reflection, I think I may get what you're thinking about. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm not sure if (at least part of) this analysis is meaningful. By that I mean its arbitrary to "account" for the strength of powers in this way. If I had a 100 point heal with zero cast time (to eliminate cast/recharge issues for the moment) and 10s recharge, and I slotted it to +100% heal and +100% recharge, its overall performance becomes:
100h/10s x (1 + 1) x (1 + 1) = 10 h/s x 2 x 2. Its a bit misleading to say that when you multiply 10 times 2 times 2, the 2's have a greater effect on the total than the 10 does. Its meaningful to state that enhancements can increase your abilities by a factor of four or more, but I think its a meaningless side-track to assert which one is "responsible" for the greater part of the whole. |
I think your concern about being misleading resonates most if the numbers 10, 2, and 2 are independently determined, or done as part of a simple math calculation that has no purpose beyond calculating numbers. If you have the freedom to alter any of those three numbers and you could not have them be independently determined--especially if you have some cap on the total to which these three numbers could be multiplied, for game balance reasons, then the question becomes whether to ...
1. put relatively more emphasis for determining power performance on the base attributes of the powers themselves: this would require more effective and efficient base stats for powers and generally lower enhancement values
2. ... or put relatively more emphasis for determining power performance on enhancements: this would require less effective and efficient base power values and higher enhancement values.
COX clearly puts a heavy degree of weight onto enhancements, for determining the performance of powers. The extent to which that is a helpful or unhelpful thing is another set of issues entirely, of course.
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Animation time and cast time are not necessarily the same thing. Usually they are the same or close, but not always.|
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
On the animation issue, I've read the claim many times that the animation had to finish before a power would start recharging. But, that never seemed to be the case to me, at least on casual in-game inspection of how powers seemed to work. So, I went ahead and did a crude test tonight about that issue using Neutrino Bolt, which others can (and hopefully will) replicate. The steps I took and the results are given below:
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For instance, Dual Pistols>Hail of Bullets lists a cast time of 0.00, because of the defense buff. The animation time is still 3.something seconds. Hail of Bullets starts recharging as soon as its cast time (of nothing) finishes, which means it starts recharging while the animation is going.
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I see what you're saying, and thank you for responding. And, I was also able to confirm that "Activation time" is listed as 0.00 seconds for Hail of Bullets in the "character creation" screen, in-game. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Animation time and cast time are not necessarily the same thing. Usually they are the same or close, but not always.
For instance, Dual Pistols>Hail of Bullets lists a cast time of 0.00, because of the defense buff. The animation time is still 3.something seconds. Hail of Bullets starts recharging as soon as its cast time (of nothing) finishes, which means it starts recharging while the animation is going. |
Sometimes settling one question leads to another, though. On Red Tomax City of Data, Neutrino Bolt has a listed cast time of 1.00 seconds, and a listed activation time of "-", which seems to mean "doesn't exist." In the game, the "detailed data" section of the enhancement screen lists Neutrino Bolt as having an activation time of 1.00 seconds, and there is no listing for a cast time (or for animation time, for that matter).
The end result is that either my test was valid, at least for Neutrino Bolt, or I was using the wrong information source as a starting point for testing (or there is no publicly available and trustworthy information source that tells me when individual powers begin to recharge). What other sources are out there to verify when powers start to recharge?
I don't mind doing another test or two, but if I made some errors last time then I'd rather make certain that I use an appropriate source for numbers next time.
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Terminology. First, CoD doesn't list an activation time it lists an activation period. Activation Period is the rate at which passive and toggle powers "tick." For click powers, its ignored and usually set to zero. CoD is basically noting that whatever it might be set to, its not applicable for a click power.|
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
Sometimes settling one question leads to another, though. On Red Tomax City of Data, Neutrino Bolt has a listed cast time of 1.00 seconds, and a listed activation time of "-", which seems to mean "doesn't exist." In the game, the "detailed data" section of the enhancement screen lists Neutrino Bolt as having an activation time of 1.00 seconds, and there is no listing for a cast time (or for animation time, for that matter).
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Real Numbers calls "Cast Time" "Activation Time" just because its probably less likely to confuse casual players. They mean the same thing.
Neither CoD nor Real Numbers currently tells you what the Animation Time of the power is, which is itself a colloquial term for the technical phrase The length of time during which the power's animations will root you, making you unable to activate any new powers or move.
This may sound like a hair split, and for most casual observers of the game it probably is, but for technical people there's an important distinction. Jump Kick plays a three second long animation. Its "animation time" therefore you'd assume is three seconds. But only the first half of that animation is tagged as ROOTED, the second half is not ROOTED and interruptible, so its actually possible to cast another attack in the middle of Jump Kick's animation. So Jump Kick's rooted time is only half that, and that's the part that is significant to people attempting to figure out how fast they can attack with Jump Kick in their attack chain.
The important thing to remember is that cast time and recharge are governed by the powers system. Being ROOTED is governed completely independently by the animation system. Cast time determines how long the powers system will prevent you from activating any new powers, and when the power should start recharging. Completely separate from that being ROOTED will prevent you from actually doing anything, even if the powers system would otherwise let you. The combination of the two affects attack chains. But only cast time and recharge affect the actual availability and cycle time of powers.
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It's a known artifact of it's "During the Animation Only" defense buff - the defense buff can only start after the cast time is over, but they are able to have the animation still root you |
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
And, I was also able to confirm that "Activation time" is listed as 0.00 seconds for Hail of Bullets in the "character creation" screen, in-game.
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Thank you for the explanation. Now I get that animations and recharge have nothing to do with each other--the powers system governs recharge, and the animation system does not. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Terminology. First, CoD doesn't list an activation time it lists an activation period. Activation Period is the rate at which passive and toggle powers "tick." For click powers, its ignored and usually set to zero. CoD is basically noting that whatever it might be set to, its not applicable for a click power.
Real Numbers calls "Cast Time" "Activation Time" just because its probably less likely to confuse casual players. They mean the same thing. Neither CoD nor Real Numbers currently tells you what the Animation Time of the power is, which is itself a colloquial term for the technical phrase The length of time during which the power's animations will root you, making you unable to activate any new powers or move. This may sound like a hair split, and for most casual observers of the game it probably is, but for technical people there's an important distinction. Jump Kick plays a three second long animation. Its "animation time" therefore you'd assume is three seconds. But only the first half of that animation is tagged as ROOTED, the second half is not ROOTED and interruptible, so its actually possible to cast another attack in the middle of Jump Kick's animation. So Jump Kick's rooted time is only half that, and that's the part that is significant to people attempting to figure out how fast they can attack with Jump Kick in their attack chain. The important thing to remember is that cast time and recharge are governed by the powers system. Being ROOTED is governed completely independently by the animation system. Cast time determines how long the powers system will prevent you from activating any new powers, and when the power should start recharging. Completely separate from that being ROOTED will prevent you from actually doing anything, even if the powers system would otherwise let you. The combination of the two affects attack chains. But only cast time and recharge affect the actual availability and cycle time of powers. |
What is not clear is when a power should start recharging. Should it start recharging immediately after it has been cast (perhaps with a lag of 0.132 seconds), or should it start recharging after the casting time for a power is completed? If it is the latter, then the testing I did earlier shows that Neutrino Bolt does not adhere to the intended rule; Neutrino Bolt begins recharging immediately or almost immediately after it has been cast, rather than after the casting period is complete.
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The latter. This has also been tested in the past, so I would recommend carefully reproducing your tests. If Neutrino bolt really is recharging immediately upon casting, that's either a bug or a change in the way the game works. If I have the chance I will try to test this myself tonight.
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Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
Should it start recharging immediately after it has been cast (perhaps with a lag of 0.132 seconds), or should it start recharging after the casting time for a power is completed?
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I went back and ran more or less the same test three times, to see if I could replicate earlier results. I also noticed (and fixed) an error I had made in my earlier spreadsheet; the "Arcanatime" cast time for neutrino bolt is actually 1.188 (not 1.32, which I had mistakenly derived by referencing the recharge time of 1.11 seconds in my original calculations, instead of the casting time of 1.00 seconds).
Results of the newer tests below:
1st time: Mob hit: lvl 26 warrior bruiser, 24.366 seconds total time on stopwatch, 10 neutrino bolts counted in the combat log
2nd time: Mob hit: lvl 23 hewer, 26.650 seconds total time on stopwatch, 12 neutrino bolts counted in combat log
3rd time: Mob hit: Ancestor (Tsoo), level forgotten, 14.948 seconds total time on stopwatch, 6 neutrino bolts counted in the combat log
Methods: I used the same website (www.online-stopwatch.com) for all three tests. After targeting the mob and setting neutrino bolt to autofire, I switched to the stopwatch and hit "Start". I switched back to the game and watched the battle until the mob was moderately or seriously damaged, switched autofire off for neutrino bolt, which ended the attack sequence, and then immediately switched to the online stopwatch and pressed "Pause." I recorded the time on the stopwatch and moved on to the next test.
The results this time around are definitely not in line with my first test. In fact, subtracting out the cast time multiplied by the number of castings leaves very close to the expected recharge time unaccounted for, for each attack, when averaged, which supports the previous finding by others that attacks begin recharging after the casting time (or "activation time", as given in the Real Numbers screen in-game) is completed.
As a further control on battle conditions, the first two tests were done while hovering, and the third test was done while standing on the ground. The results are consistent for all three tests.
Running the tests for a longer period of time this time around left less room for measurement error to drive the results, which I now believe is what happened the first time; especially with prior evidence from others and all three later tests pointing toward recharge beginning *after* the activation time completes, that seems to be the correct conclusion.
I'll keep that in mind, going forward. My thanks to Arcanaville & Umbral for pointing this out.
I'm putting together a longer post about enhancements, among other subjects. I'm requesting some feedback about some calculations I made, and some conclusions I drew, about the relative influence of enhancements versus the base attributes of powers on the final effectiveness and efficiency of powers. The information given below, and concerning which I'm doing a little fact checking, is part of the support for that (future) post.
My thanks in advance for feedback provided.
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How much can current enhancement values impact the efficiency and effectiveness of powers?
To make the following calculations a little easier, I'll begin by working with a Generic Healing Power (GHP) that does 100 points of healing, takes 2 seconds of activation time, costs 10 endurance to cast, and has a base recharge time of 10 seconds. Lets work with the assumption that a player uses set invention origin enhancements (set IOs) to enhance GHP to produce a 90% level of enhancement to healing power, endurance cost, and base recharge rate. How much do these enhancements to GHP improve its performance?
Each enhanced attribute, by itself, is easy to calculate; 100 hit points of healing becomes 190 hit points, for a 90% increase in healing power. The endurance cost falls to 5.26 endurance (10 / (1 + 0.9)) = 5.26, for a 47% drop in endurance cost. The recharge time drops to 5.26 seconds, which is a 47% drop in recharge time, or a 47% improvement in power availability. The most valuable help provided by enhancements, though, of course, comes in how enhancements to individual power attributes work together. If you look at healing per endurance point spent (HPE), with an unslotted GHP you spend 1 point of endurance for 10 points of healing, which translates into a HPE of 10. If you slot GHP as indicated earlier, you end up using 5.26 endurance to do 190 hit points of healing, for a HPE of 36.1. In summary, the enhancement levels outlined earlier lead to GHP being over 3.5 times as efficient in the amount of healing provided, and the power is available for use close to twice as often.
Next, I'll use the calculations just done to provide an exact answer to the question How much of the benefits available from using GHP are due to enhancements, and how much are due to the base attributes of the power itself? In the above example, the healing efficiency (HPE) of this Generic Healing Power is 28% due to base power attributes and 72% due to enhancements (10 / 36.1 = .28, and 26.1 / 36.1 = .72).
The upshot? If you focus on examining healing efficiency (HPE), then enhancements account for almost three quarters of the healing efficiency achieved. If you factor in the option to use GHP close to twice as often, one could quite reasonably argue that enhancements are much, much more important in determining the performance of GHP than the base attributes of GHP itself. Furthermore, it bears mentioning that the values used for calculations made earlier are in fact not as high as they can be; enhancement values can actually be higher for higher level characters using set IOs, and players can in fact do much better than the 90/90/90 enhancement levels used for these calculations through the use of set IO bonuses.
The conclusion that enhancements are much more influential on power effectiveness and efficiency than the base stats of the powers themselves applies to more than just healing powers; consider also the effect of enhancements on attack powers. Measuring the effect of enhancements on the damage potential of attack powers requires more complex calculations than for healing powers because at a minimum you will need to consider the percentage chance to miss, damage done when a mob is hit, attack availability because of recharge speed, whether or not an attack chain can be saturated with high damage attacks (ie: there are no gaps in it, so that in theory you character could continue it forever), endurance costs, and activation times. Area of effect (AOE) attacks are even harder to analyze because of variability in how many mobs are hit and the effects of enhancing range on the damage potential of some AOE attack powers (especially cones). Still, the conclusion for damage powers is the same as for healing; skillful enhancement strategies easily overpower the base attributes of damage powers, as a percentage of damage that can be done to mobs. This is true in part because of improvements in the damage potential of individual powers through skillful enhancement choices and in part because any given character's best attack powers can be the focus of heavy slotting and enhancement, to increase the prominence of the most damaging attacks in saturated attack chains that far surpass the performance of a set of unenhanced attack powers.
Furthermore, neither healing nor attack powers are at the top in the list of powers that become better through enhancements; powers that gain the most through enhancements are mezzes, such as holds and stuns. An unenhanced hold such as freeze ray in the ice blast set will at lower levels not even keep an even level lieutenant permanently held, when it even hits at all, which it often will not do when operating with just the base slot. A fully slotted, skillfully enhanced freeze ray will rarely miss its target and it can keep many higher level bosses permanently locked down, after two initial castings that hit the boss (Purple Bres, Overseers, Gunslingers, and Elite Paragon Protectors, I'm looking at you!). As an aid to the survival of the relatively squishy character classes that can choose the ice blast set, there is currently a huge difference in utility between an unenhanced and a fully enhanced freeze ray.
All of the foregoing even further understates the possible improvements in power effectiveness if a player uses purples, procs, or other IO-driven methods to improve overall character performance.