The problem is, they are never going to allow difficult custom critters to give an appropriately high amount of XP based on that difficulty, as would only be fair.
I used to play a lot of MA missions, but lately I've avoided it because though I like a good story, I equally like decent rewards, and the MA is not currently a source of decent rewards.
I mean, really, a custom critter with Rage should be giving XP in proportion to that, shouldn't it?
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Currently, the XP balancing in MA remains broken, because "friendly" targets like defensible objects are hostages are still being treated as if they were NPC allies. This makes just about any MA mission that aspires to anything more complicated than a radio/newspaper mission give seriously substandard rewards. Until this is fixed, I'm not going to spend much time messing around with MA.
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Originally Posted by Sardan
I guess what I'm asking is: have they gotten the XP balancing right or should I sit it out for a while longer while this gets further refined/tweaked?
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To the best extent possible, it kinda does.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
I mean, really, a custom critter with Rage should be giving XP in proportion to that, shouldn't it?
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I should point out though that even in the standard PvE game, critters are not given XP proportional to their difficulty. There is a certain difficulty threshold that a critter tends to have to meet: i.e. you must be at least as tall as this sign to become a level 35 critter. But past that point, some critters can be a lot stronger without an XP bonus. In fact, XP bonuses above the standard rate tend to be uncommon in general, and tend to reflect as much the circumstances under which you encounter the critters as it does their difficulty.
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Or, to sum up: the regular game screws you on more-difficult foes too.
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OK, fair enough. But custom critters are generally so much more difficult than any standard critter, that giving the same or reduced rewards seems like more of a penalty (ie, you can go and defeat standard critters in non-MA missions that are much easier to defeat, but give the same XP as those Extreme bosses in MA, making MA a very unappealing option).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I should point out though that even in the standard PvE game, critters are not given XP proportional to their difficulty...In fact, XP bonuses above the standard rate tend to be uncommon in general, and tend to reflect as much the circumstances under which you encounter the critters as it does their difficulty.
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No, they're not necessarily more difficult. They are more difficult if the author doesn't know how to make a properly balanced critter. Extreme bosses are a bad example, as they are far from balanced, horribly overpowered, and will probably kill you.
It is now possible, with the current reward slider, to make an enemy comparable in difficulty to a Standard enemy that gives 100% or near 100% XP. No, you can't go over 100%, but Standard enemies that give bonus XP do not do so in AE either.
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Let me suggest trying the new XP system, avoiding the Standard, Hard, and Extreme settings altogether. Hopefully, the new system will be, if not perfect, a closer match to difficulty and XP than before. Just to clarify something not everyone seems to know, the new system does *not* alter the XP rewards for Standard, Hard, and Extreme settings: those are still arbitrarily low. To get the benefit of the new system, you must set both primary and secondary set to Custom, and pick a custom set of powers. In fact, if you want to make a "Hard" critter, and want the benefits of the new system, you have to make a note of which powers are turned on under Hard for both sets, switch to custom and then deliberately turn those powers back on (while turning any others off).|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
OK, fair enough. But custom critters are generally so much more difficult than any standard critter, that giving the same or reduced rewards seems like more of a penalty (ie, you can go and defeat standard critters in non-MA missions that are much easier to defeat, but give the same XP as those Extreme bosses in MA, making MA a very unappealing option).
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I would be curious to know if you feel the current custom system is still generating critters way too hard for the XP they give, and in what way. Perhaps its a problem that can be addressed in some fashion in a future update of the system (although the system is designed to err on the side of caution, to try to prevent exploitability).
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You agree the Extreme boss is much more difficult, so if the author of the MArc uses an Extreme boss, why shouldn't it give rewards proportionate to that? Because difficult standard critters don't? Even though Extreme customs are an order of magnitude more difficult than any standard critter?|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
No, they're not necessarily more difficult. They are more difficult if the author doesn't know how to make a properly balanced critter.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Let me suggest trying the new XP system, avoiding the Standard, Hard, and Extreme settings altogether. Hopefully, the new system will be, if not perfect, a closer match to difficulty and XP than before. Just to clarify something not everyone seems to know, the new system does *not* alter the XP rewards for Standard, Hard, and Extreme settings: those are still arbitrarily low. To get the benefit of the new system, you must set both primary and secondary set to Custom, and pick a custom set of powers.
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It's all a big frustration when I can just go to any given standard storyarc and do that instead.
I will have to play around with that as you suggest though. Who knows? I may find it "good enough".
P.S. They're going to have to do something about reducing XP for non-buffing "allies" like destructable objects and hostages before I take a serious look at MA again though (unless that's been corrected, but based on posts here, it hasn't).
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Because there would always be some way to create an Extreme boss that gives massive XP and that your toon of choice can defeat easily. For example, a boss with no to-hit buffs won't be much of a threat to a character with soft-capped defense, no matter how many powers you give it.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
You agree the Extreme boss is much more difficult, so if the author of the MArc uses an Extreme boss, why shouldn't it give rewards proportionate to that? Because difficult standard critters don't? Even though Extreme customs are an order of magnitude more difficult than any standard critter?
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Extreme critters are warned about in arc descriptions anyway, and in my experience the authors who are clueless enough to include them because "my guys are teh uberz!" are too lazy to create a critter with custom-picked powers that amount to the same thing. Authors that use them on purpose would, one would hope, not try to sucker hapless players into a meat grinder that way.
Basically, if you want rewards somewhat proportionate to the challenge, don't make overly challenging critters. It isn't that difficult to do anymore.
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They are working on it.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
P.S. They're going to have to do something about reducing XP for non-buffing "allies" like destructable objects and hostages before I take a serious look at MA again though (unless that's been corrected, but based on posts here, it hasn't).
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I thought I17 had the fix, but, this is good to hear. After that fix is in I'm going to take a serious look at MA and give it a fair second chance.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
They are working on it.
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Some MArcs really are good ("Sea City" for example). When you find a MArc like that, just randomly like I did, you see what the MA could be. Then you stumble into one of the "completes on zone in" MArcs some joker put together for lolz and you see what the MA can also be.
P.S. I'm reminded I would at least like to play Arcanaville's and Eva Destruction's MArcs because I can expect those to be competent at worst and excellent at best. Hmmm. Market's down anyway, so why not?
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Actually, I've let my Secret Weapons arc get pecked apart by MA patches. But actually, with I17 now live I can theoretically revert it to the *exact* state it was in when I originally designed it in I14 beta - the file size restriction and custom critter restrictions are now basically gone, and the maps I needed are all back (the Crey Lab map, in particular) so I'm now actually interested in updating that one back to its original form. I'd wait on that one: I hope to have it updated within a week or so, time permitting (although nothing stops you from playing it now and comparing |
Originally Posted by Daemodand
P.S. I'm reminded I would at least like to play Arcanaville's and Eva Destruction's MArcs because I can expect those to be competent at worst and excellent at best. Hmmm. Market's down anyway, so why not?
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). But technically I will still need whatever they are cooking up with the ally patch for one of the missions or it will tank the XP at the end.Plus, I like to think that when I had the full complement of them in there it was a good example of using custom critters to supplement the existing ones.
Bug Hunt was something I wrote a little out of frustration back in I14 beta and ported to live: I decided to write an arc that couldn't possibly be broken by MA patches (of course, it was broken twice) and I felt the need to jab the devs with a stick a little. Its what passes for humor with me at 3:00 am.
The Scrapper Challenge isn't really a story arc. I wrote that one just because I hate you all and you must die die die. But I'm a bit sad that they removed the ability to use the yellow mito as the contact for that mission. It doesn't quite have the same impact when a wisp is delivering the dialog.
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Secret Weapons is out for now then. Could you possibly PM me when the MArc is fixed up and ready? I'll check out the others in the meantime.
I've been thinking about getting all the MArcs to play from forums posts (which do tend to be better than the average random MArc) but there is definitely something to be said for finding a real gem of a MArc, especially if it has zero plays. That is kind of fun.
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I initially used MA and had some fun with it, but the various changes to control the rampant exploits killed my interest in it (I wasn't creating eploitive missions, but the XP for my custom groups dropped through the floor). However, with the i17 changes of doubling file size and having custom XP on a per-power basis, I think it might be time to revisit it.
But those of you who are MA masters, tell me: what do you think of the current balance of XP in MA? Can I create a custom group that's roughly equivalent to a standard game enemy group and have players get roughly the same XP?
I guess what I'm asking is: have they gotten the XP balancing right or should I sit it out for a while longer while this gets further refined/tweaked?
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