Help me plot out a Fire Tanker that won't die...ever
Update: currently sitting at 13-going-on-14. Shared tanking duties with a Stone/ at the same level on a team of 8, and solo-tanked for 6 or 7. Still alive and punching! (Substantial credit must go to the team's buffers; at one point we had Cold, Forcefields, and Empathy support. That was a huge help as a baby Tanker.)
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Yeah, that's what I have learned to like about it. I used to feel particularly annoyed about it, like Ace does, but I've changed my feelings on it a bit more. I still don't want to fall as a Tanker, ever, but RoTP means it's even harder to truly defeat me, which is a fun concept.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I personally love Rise of the Phoenix, though that's on a Scrapper. I can see why a Tanker wouldn't want it if s/he's playing lead tank. One point though. RotP is not about embracing defeat at all. Rather the opposite; it's about the fact that even if you go down you STILL haven't been defeated. You're only out of the race if they can take you down twice in a very short period.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Update: currently sitting at 13-going-on-14. Shared tanking duties with a Stone/ at the same level on a team of 8, and solo-tanked for 6 or 7. Still alive and punching! (Substantial credit must go to the team's buffers; at one point we had Cold, Forcefields, and Empathy support. That was a huge help as a baby Tanker.)
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For Fiery Aura, all that defense on top of your resists and heals will show you why getting your own defense to have when solo or sans-buffers is such a good idea, too.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
In my case, Rise of the Phoenix is a push power - if I'm hurting for slots, but not for power choices, into the build it goes. But socketing it seems like madness.
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Shield is resis/def sets not pure defense set other than that you can hardly go with powerset just because it is good in early levels, especially with smothened leveling curve and if you got a good SG to help you.|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
Shield, like other Defense sets, takes longer to mature into a fully 'difficult to kill' Tanker.
Besides, you didn't chose Shield, or Stone, but Fire. As has been mentioned by others, all of Fire's core defenses are available by level 12. Sailboat, if it's not too much work, you might try building a Non-Hardcore Fire/Dark Tanker and 'pushing' him, to see just how much you can get away with, and to develop your playstyle, so that your Hardcore toon survives better. Be Well! Fireheart |
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Isn't Shield weaker than Inv and Willpower? :P
I went Stone before and died at 13. Stone isn't "unkillable" until 33. |
Right, but the core of this whole thread (besides Fire/Dark and Not one of the other sets) is creating a Hardcore Iron-man can-not-die, no, not even once, character. Experience, teams, and 'properly slotted' don't really come into the matter, because you still have to get Through those early levels (without dying, No, Not Even Once!) which makes all of the great 'many layers of defense' powersets a bit less effective/attractive.
Saying 'Shield is better', (or Stone, or Willpower, or Invulnerability, or Dark, or Super Reflexes, or Carp Armor) is irrelevant to the thread, because the man asked for guidance about FIRE!
Be Well!
Fireheart
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Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
If you want an unkillable tank you need to go with Shield or Stone.
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Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Shield slotted properly is better than Inv or WP, top three IMO are Stone, Shield, WP.
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Just off the top of my head, assuming both sets add Tough and Weave and IOs:
Inv: softcapped defense, great defense debuff resistance
Shd: softcapped defense, even better defense debuff resistance possible at very high cost in influence, using what's possibly an exploit that may someday get closed
Inv: 90% resistance to the predominant damage types in the game; 30-32% resistance to the other types
Shd: 40-46% resistance to the predominant damage types in the game; ~23% resistance to the other types
Inv: 40% life increase on demand, and huge heal on a longish recharge
Shd: 20% lfe increase all the time, no heal
To me, a key thing that stands out is Inv's 90% smashing and lethal resistance. Supposedly s/l damage is roughly 70% of the game's damage dealt to you; the 90% reduction instantly trivializes all that damage.
I guess you could be talking about Shield's better DDR...but if you build a cushion into your Inv Tanker's defense, it'll get quite a lot of mileage out of its 50% DDR. Mine does. (And I'm of the opinion that the HO...function...that gives Shields its highest DDR with a lot of cash investment might be changed some day, but that's just me.)
It's certainly possible I've overlooked something. Can you explain your reasoning?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I'm not sure what exploits a Shields build would be needing to get to the soft cap... it's possible to do it with just power picks and the Steadfast +defense IO, if I remember correctly. But maybe I misunderstood that comment, Sailboat.
But yes, I would definitely put Invuln over Shields. If Shields has its defense bypassed, it doesn't have a lot to fall back on for help. Invuln has good resists and Dull Pain on top of its defense. Shields is great fun, sure, but I wouldn't put it above Invuln in what it can take for damage.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I was referring to the debuff resistance gained from slotting HOs, not to the soft cap or defense proper.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I'm not sure what exploits a Shields build would be needing to get to the soft cap... it's possible to do it with just power picks and the Steadfast +defense IO, if I remember correctly. But maybe I misunderstood that comment, Sailboat.
But yes, I would definitely put Invuln over Shields. If Shields has its defense bypassed, it doesn't have a lot to fall back on for help. Invuln has good resists and Dull Pain on top of its defense. Shields is great fun, sure, but I wouldn't put it above Invuln in what it can take for damage. |
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
+----------------------------------------------------------------
+ Built with SuckerPunch's Online Planner v5.0
+ http://planner.cohtitan.com/planner
+----------------------------------------------------------------
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Fiery Aura
Secondary: Dark Melee
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01: Shadow Punch
01: Fire Shield
02: Healing Flames
04: Shadow Maul
06: Fly
08: Consume
10: Boxing
12: Plasma Shield
14: Swift
16: Siphon Life
18: Health
20: Stamina
22: Tough
24: Burn
26: Blazing Aura
28: Soul Drain
30: Touch of Fear
32: Weave
35: Fiery Embrace
38: Midnight Grasp
Heres a slightly rejiggered build plan. Keep in mind that, unlike many builds we see on the forums, this is explicitly a leveling build; a lot of thought has gone into picking the powers at each level, since theres no room for error in Hardcore.
Ultimately I decided that the 70% s/l resistance Ill get with slotted Tough will do more to keep me alive than anything else, and it should be taken pretty much as soon as SOs are available. The biggest move was pushing Blazing Aura out to 26. I love damage auras, and theyre even more important when you skip Taunt, but in leveling up two builds Ive found its difficult to support the endurance cost of BA before Stamina, and early on, its damage is pretty small (its doing 4 or 6 at level 10 or so, unslotted). I took it as soon after SOs as I could, except for the two powers I find even more critical, Tough and Burn (which is my immobilize protection). I find myself teaming with Controllers a lot, which means Burns offensive potential can be leveraged, and if anyone could use the mitigation the avoid mechanic provides, its a low-defense Hardcore aggro-magnet. :P
How useful do you find Touch of Fear? It sounds like a good fit for my purposes (mitigation above all) and might be fun to play with, but I have no experience with it. I assume its not good enough to be worth displacing Soul Drain on the list.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I've played with ToF once or twice, but I usually don't keep it, using Smite instead. In a guide for Scrapers, Desmodos has this to say:|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
... How useful do you find Touch of Fear? It sounds like a good fit for my purposes (mitigation above all) and might be fun to play with, but I have no experience with it. I assume its not good enough to be worth displacing Soul Drain on the list.
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Originally Posted by Desmodos
Touch of Fear does no damage, instead it prevents you from taking damage. ToF damage mitigation is twofold. The first aspect as the name suggest, applies the fear effect to a single target. This allows a player to effectively disable a single minion or lieutenant from attacking. The duration of ToF is substantial enough to apply multiple times on a single target, so it can be effective at disabling bosses as well. The fear affect will be discussed later in this guide. The second aspect of ToF applies a hefty ToHit debuff to the target, dramatically reducing the targets ability to hit you. ToHit Debuffs will be covered in greater detail separately in this guide.
ToF strategies vary from player to player and scenario to scenario. It can be used to disable one target while you focus on another or weaken your primary target so you can take it out. Disabling Malta Sappers seems to be the favorite usage of this power. Considered highly effective out of the box, slotting strategies are variable if you can find the extra slots. Slot 1 accuracy or 1 endurance reduction |
Be Well!
Fireheart
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I think you fail to see the concept the OP is playing under: defeat = delete toon. So, RotP would be useless. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
general rule of thumb. Fire Aura has Rise of the Pheonix for a reason. It needs it. No matter what you do, even soft-capping your fire tank, you will eventually go splat.
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Sorry, I mean even more useless than it already is.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
rotp is eye candy only...since i dont role play i find nothing good about it at all and i will never take it as a power.
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Originally Posted by Acemace
qr
I disagree, personally I detest RotP, from day one it seemed like a path down expected defeat. |
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Originally Posted by Rylas
I think you fail to see the concept the OP is playing under: defeat = delete toon. So, RotP would be useless.
Sorry, I mean even more useless than it already is. |
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Originally Posted by Severe
rotp is eye candy only...since i dont role play i find nothing good about it at all and i will never take it as a power.
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Castle will never tinker with the melee self rez powers, but boy would I like something in it's place that could help my character stay alive.
But I digress.
Well, after the first incarnation of this character died in a three-Tanker teamwipe (ugh) against COT Spectral Lords at 14 -- although I did hold out alone for several cycles of Healing Flames recharging, so it was a long time -- I have slowly shepherded the rebuild to level 30 (playing him only irregularly; we have one fixed meeting a week and some additional pick-up games, but I am also leveling other hardcore characters who compete for my playing time).
Slight adjustments to the build:
+----------------------------------------------------------------
+ Built with SuckerPunch's Online Planner v5.0
+ http://planner.cohtitan.com/planner
+----------------------------------------------------------------
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Fiery Aura
Secondary: Dark Melee
+----------------------------------------------------------------
01: Shadow Punch
01: Fire Shield
02: Healing Flames
04: Shadow Maul
06: Fly
08: Consume
10: Boxing
12: Plasma Shield
14: Swift
16: Siphon Life
18: Health
20: Stamina
22: Tough
24: Blazing Aura
26: Burn
28: Soul Drain
30: Fiery Embrace
----theoretical future picks----
32: Touch of Fear
35: Weave
38: Midnight Grasp
The changes were taking Blazing Aura before Burn (because my hardcore teammates needed me to grab aggro better) and bumping back Touch of Fear again to take Fiery Embrace (because I felt a lack of burst damage by level 30, and two of the regular playing partners recently picked up Fear powers. I admit that if I was more experienced at using Touch of Fear I might have decided differently.)
This build benefits well from support; any buff to resistance, defense, regen, or recharge [because the two heals come back faster] helps survivability.
Downside is that I'm slot-starved. Burn, Blazing Aura, and Soul Drain are screaming for more slots; Consume, Shadow Punch, and Fiery Embrace are right in line behind them, looking at their watches and trolling their eyes. Fortunately I am in the 30s now and slots will be easier to come by.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I think that, that build is a build that won't die either from avoiding hardcore stuff, life as an offtank scranking and again avoiding hardcore stuff or from having good support or a good team in general. It won't matter how you slot it, it's not going to be 100% unkillable. Also Dark melee isn't one of the better secondaries for this endeavour by a mile.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I disagree, New Dawn, while the combo might be slightly less durable than some Tankers, it compensates with 2 Heals, two Endurance siphons, and 2 Build-ups. It's going to be a roller-coaster ride, but the toon should be a ton of fun and great for doing significant destruction to single targets. Everything he hits will have a hard(er) time hitting him back, and the more he hits them, the harder it will get to respond.
He won't be 'avoiding' the hardcore, or be relegated to off-tank, because his team will support him and they Need him to be a focus for aggro. They're All in the 'must not die, not even once' category and if the Tanker goes down, it's not looking good for the rest of the team.
That said, the group may choose to avoid the high-end TFs, as being just too much risk, or Not. Is that what you meant by 'avoid hardcore'? You may be right about that.
Be Well!
Fireheart
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I think that /Shield Defense is not all that great leveling up. Eventually it's great though...
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Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
If you want an unkillable tank you need to go with Shield or Stone.
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@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
You know I meant to add a disclaimer because in six years and unknown times the topic has come up, there's inevitably the counter point added when I offer my view of RotP.
It's a power that some players even love, but my personal choice is never to take it, in fact I hate the concept for a Tanker.
Of course through the years I've tested it thoroughly, fully slotted etc, and have never, not one time, wished it was on my live build. My personal choice and playstyle.
I will add that in context with the title's stated goal, RotP isn't exactly going to help him meet those ends. ;]