Is there a difference between having a power as a secondary?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-09 10:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
You mean like having willpower as your tanker primary and its a scrapper secondary?
The number values behind the powers are different (but that's more of an AT thing tho), and some sets have small differences to them (see stalkers), but overall the powers do the same things.
currently reading: A Mighty Fortress (David Weber)
Primaries are laid out faster.
Example:
Kenetic/ defender gets Speed Boost at 12.
/Kenetic controller gets Speed Boost at 20.
Same for everything.
I know that you get powers later on as a secondary, but let's say for a Defender with Dual Pistols secondary, would that power set ALONE be doing less damage than a Blaster with Dual Pistols ALONE? If so by how much?
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Yes it does. I'll take Hail of Bullets for example.|
Originally Posted by Peter Tran
I know that you get powers later on as a secondary, but let's say for a Defender with Dual Pistols secondary, would that power set ALONE be doing less damage than a Blaster with Dual Pistols ALONE? If so by how much?
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Blaster at lvl 32 it does 166.7 unslotted.
Defender at lvl 38 it does 96.3 unslotted.
This going by the latest version of Mids.
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Yes, but not because it's a primary versus a secondary. All characters have attribute modifiers that impact how powerful their abilities are. For example take Dual Pistols. Three ATs have access to the sets: Defenders, Blaster and Corruptors. Their Ranged Damage Modifiers (at level 50) are as follows:|
Originally Posted by Peter Tran
I know that you get powers later on as a secondary, but let's say for a Defender with Dual Pistols secondary, would that power set ALONE be doing less damage than a Blaster with Dual Pistols ALONE? If so by how much?
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Blaster: 1.125
Corruptor: 0.75
Defender: 0.65
So Blasters will do about 73% more damage with their pistols than Defenders. However even though corruptors have it as their primary they deal less damage than blasters and only slightly more than defenders (ignoring scourge).
However the pistol attacks also deal various other effects depending on the specific power and the ammo type. Most attacks deal Knockback (regular ammo), Slow (cryo ammo) or damage reduction (toxic ammo). Additionally Suppressive Fire does either a stun or a hold. The different AT have different modifiers for these as well, for example the modifiers for damage debuff are as follows:
Blaster: 0.07
Corruptor: 0.1
Defender: 0.125
These vary a little bit for different debuffs but the basic point is the same. Defenders get the best ones, and blasters the worst with corruptors in between.
If you want a full list of attribute modifiers the wiki has them in the various AT pages or you can find them at redtomax.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/modifiers.php
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As Post says here, the only difference that having a powerset as a primary provides versus having a powerset as a secondary is the levels in which you get the powers.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
Primaries are laid out faster.
Example: Kenetic/ defender gets Speed Boost at 12. /Kenetic controller gets Speed Boost at 20. Same for everything. |
What this means is that the base functionality of the powers (generally) remains the same no matter what AT uses it (there is some slight modification from AT to AT, but those are special cases). Any differences you might see between a single power between 2 ATs is driven by a difference in their functional scalars.
For example, consider a DB/Invuln Scrapper and an Invuln/DB Tanker. Both of them have the exact same powers available to them (with the exception of Confront/Taunt, but those are AT variants that are virtually identical). Now look at each AT's version of Nimble Slash and each AT's version of Temp Invulnerability. Nimble Slash deals 52.5 unenhanced damage (before factoring in crits) for Scrappers and 37.4 unenhanced damage for Tankers. Temp Invulnerability provides 30% +res for Tankers and 22.5% +res for Scrappers. The reason for this discrepancy, even though the powers are the same, is that Scrappers have a damage scalar of 1.125 and a resistance self buff scalar of .75 while Tankers have a damage scalar of .8 and a resistance self buff scalar of 1.0. If you compare powers across ATs, you'll notice that the ratios of damage, self buffs, targeted buffs, etc. always remain the same. It's because of these scalars. There are scalars for pretty much everything, though, for some things, all ATs share the exact same scalars if the devs decided to allow all ATs to behave in exactly the same way.
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You explained it much more eloquently than I.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yes, but not because it's a primary versus a secondary. All characters have attribute modifiers that impact how powerful their abilities are. For example take Dual Pistols. Three ATs have access to the sets: Defenders, Blaster and Corruptors. Their Ranged Damage Modifiers (at level 50) are as follows:
Blaster: 1.125 Corruptor: 0.75 Defender: 0.65 So Blasters will do about 73% more damage with their pistols than Defenders. However even though corruptors have it as their primary they deal less damage than blasters and only slightly more than defenders (ignoring scourge). However the pistol attacks also deal various other effects depending on the specific power and the ammo type. Most attacks deal Knockback (regular ammo), Slow (cryo ammo) or damage reduction (toxic ammo). Additionally Suppressive Fire does either a stun or a hold. The different AT have different modifiers for these as well, for example the modifiers for damage debuff are as follows: Blaster: 0.07 Corruptor: 0.1 Defender: 0.125 These vary a little bit for different debuffs but the basic point is the same. Defenders get the best ones, and blasters the worst with corruptors in between. If you want a full list of attribute modifiers the wiki has them in the various AT pages or you can find them at redtomax. http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Main_Page http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/modifiers.php |
The main difference between Secondary and Primary is, generally, potency.
This isn't because of any change in the power, but because the ATs have different modifiers that apply to those powers.
To look at your example: /Dual Pistols on a Defender compared to Dual Pistols/ on a Blaster.
/Dual Pistols will do less damage than Dual Pistols/. Why?
Because the only AT that gets /Dual Pistols is a Defender. And Defenders have a ranged damage modifier of 0.65 while Blasters have a ranged damage mod of 1.125 (Corruptors also get Dual Pistols/ and their ranged damage mod is 0.75).
Lets look at another example.
Force Fields/ Defender vs /Force Fields Controller.
FF/ wins over /FF. Because of modifiers. I would give the exact mods, but Red Tomax's Attribute Modifier spreadsheet is broken at the moment. But Defenders get a higher Ranged Defense Buff mod while Controllers get a smaller one.
So to reiterate: If you gave two ATs the exact same power set, with no changes made when handing it out, one AT would always do better on some part UNLESS all the relevant mods are identical as well.
EDIT: I see Red is actually up and it was just my link that needed updating. Good to see.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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These are modifiers relative to one another, which becomes a problem when AT modifiers change. For example, the standard ranged damage modifiers were set up with Blasters at 1.0 (100%), and everybody else's ranged damage noted in comparison to that. But then Blaster damage was buffed, and there isn't really a baseline, because players didn't really want to change the 'modifiers' for all the other ATs just because the baseline changed.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Blaster: 1.125
Corruptor: 0.75 Defender: 0.65 ... Blaster: 0.07 Corruptor: 0.1 Defender: 0.125 |
Your last link was to Red Tomax; you can look at the Ranged Damage Modifiers table to find absolute modifiers:
Blaster: -62.562
Corruptor: -41.708
Defender: -36.147
These are the same ratios as your listed 1.125, 0.75, 0.65, but they're the numbers the game actually uses. For example, a T1 blast attack will be "Scale 1 Damage" or "1 Damage Scale" of some type. A T2 blast will be 1.64 (both the 1 and the 1.64 may be split among multiple damage types, such as Power Blast with 1 Energy and 0.64 Smashing). Multiply the damage scalar by the absolute ranged damage modifier and you'll get the actual change in health.
Blaster T2: 1.64 * -62.562 = -102.60 health; [Power Blast] = 40.04 + 62.56 = 102.6 damage
Corruptor T2: 1.64 * -41.708 = -68.40 health; [Power Blast] = 26.69 + 41.71 = 68.4 damage
Defender T2: 1.64 * -36.147 = -59.28 health; [Power Blast] = 23.13 + 36.15 = 59.28 damage
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
So what happens when both ATs have the exact same revalent mods?
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Then they do the exact same thing if using the same power.|
Originally Posted by Peter Tran
So what happens when both ATs have the exact same revalent mods?
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Example: Spiders and Widows have the same damage mods. If they both hit you with Brawl, they will do the same damage.
Assuming they're the same level and have identical slottings in Brawl, of course.
EDIT: And another fun number to add in. An AT with a damage mod of 1.0, doing 1 scale damage, will do 55.61 damage at level 50.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
So basically once a person adds the proper enhancements to their powers, their AT modifeirs don't matter as much anymore?
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No.|
Originally Posted by Peter Tran
So basically once a person adds the proper enhancements to their powers, their AT modifeirs don't matter as much anymore?
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AT Mods are what determines the base effectiveness of a power. Enhancements... well, enhance that.
Let's use an example.
AT1 has a damage mod of 1.0
AT2 has a damage mod of 0.8
Both use a power that has a damage scale of 1.0.
Since 1 DS x 1 DMod = 55.61, this means 1 DS x 0.8 DMod = 44.488
Both enhance the power to the ED cap of 95%.
55.61 x (1.0 + 0.95) = 108.44
44.488 x (1.0 + 0.95) = 86.75
See? Enhancements build upon the foundation that the Damage Mods make.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Ok then, I see now. Thank you.
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The same goes for damage buffs provided from an outside source (and some other types, but damage buffs are the most common). Since they are all based off of the character's base values a damage buff will increase a Blaster's actual damage more than a Defenders (assuming same level and slotting).
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
See? Enhancements build upon the foundation that the Damage Mods make.
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Over having it as a primary?