Dual Pistols + Weapon Customization + Ammo ?

The problem is that adding these powers would require a decent deal of work. The Ammo toggles don't actually add the damage to your DP attacks themselves. What they do is set up a flag to modify the chance of your Dual Pistols attacks to do certain things.

Essentially, when there is no ammunition toggle active, your attacks have a 0% chance to do fire damage, a 0% chance to do the fire DoT, a 0% chance to do toxic damage, a 0% chance to do -dam, a 0% chance to do cold damage, and a 0% chance to do -spd and -rech, an (insert chance based on each power here) to knock the target down, and a 100% chance to deal lethal damage in addition to the base lethal damage. When you turn on Incendiary Ammunition, you reduce the chance of the knockdown/up the target to 0%, decrease the chance to deal the additional lethal damage to 0%, and increase the chance of the Fire DoT to occur to 100% (which means that it's a 100% chance for the 80% chance rolling DoT) and increase the chance of dealing fire damage to 100%.

Adding in a variety of new temp and/or prestige ammunition types would involve adding an entirely new suite of attributes to every Dual Pistols power just for a few powers that exist outside the set. Of course, this also means that you're supporting adding in specific benefits to a single power set that has a not-insubstantive effect upon game balance (an insubstantive effect would be just changing the visual effects of something, such as is accomplished with weapon customization).

This would be along the same lines as adding in various temp or prestige combos to Dual Blades. It requires a decent bit of work for a single set and has the ability to impact gameplay beyond aesthetic enjoyment.

Except that you're making the existing powers substantially more complicated than they already are for a very fractional benefit. The existing mechanism works because you get access to the all of the modes that you use naturally. The power set is complete because you don't need anything external in order to see everything that the powerset does. Forcing players to go outside of the powerset in order to see what else a power can do is either going to force players to do that or piss people off because they'll want it from the very beginning.

Look at how pissed off some people get just because they can't have a costume piece at level 1. Now consider what will happen when you start doing that with things that actually have a substantive effect on gameplay.

It's not a question of "is it possible?". It's probably rather easy, though I'm not sure what mechanic the devs use to modify the proc chances of the special effects of the Dual Pistols powers, which might be rather complex (they had to program in a new one to do just that, which kind of boggles my mind when you consider that they could have just done the same exact thing by using combat modes like Dual Blades did). The appropriate questions are "is it worth it?" and "will this actually benefit the game?"

4 types of ammunition (Standard, Incendiary, Cryo, and Chem) are probably enough, especially since most people that actually care to analyze the set have already come to the conclusion that it's Standard or Incendiary. Unless the benefits of the additional powers are going to be more than either of those (at which point you approach the problem of it making other ammunition toggles pointless), it becomes a pure flavor addition or a hyper-specialized tactical option that is only useful in a small number of situations (which is what is currently happening to Cryo and Chem rounds thanks to the reduction in damage you experience by choosing them).

Not exactly, more like modify the proc powers - but yes, essentially you'd remake the game without really destroying the core - similar to the way IOs remade the game without completely making SOs useless. (less effective, yes, useless, no)

No, I'm suggesting that it will either be substantive or fractional. If the additional ammunition types provide a substantive benefit, bad things happen. If the additional ammunition types provide an insignificant advantage or only provide a significant advantage in a tiny number of situations, bad things happen. In the first case, bad things happen because will start having people complain that they need the new ammunition toggle at all times while other people complain that DP is getting a benefit from this, why not every other set? In the second case, it becomes an issue of "why bother?". You're not providing a spectacular aesthetic benefit because the ammunition variants aren't really all that different in appearance (minor coloration changes).

Which isn't really much of an advantage. In order to take advantage of it, you have to weigh the loss of Incendiary Ammunition's DoT and Standard Ammo's Piercing Rounds' -res against the damage resistances of every target they come across. That's not really an advantage when it requires that you have a near encyclopedic knowledge of enemy damage resistances and the ability to weigh your existing addition damage mechanisms against the damage you could be doing without them by using a different damage type.

Don't ever claim that something could be easily balanced, especially when you're referring to the ability to change damage type and secondary effects on the fly, especially as it applies to the capabilities to should be allowed access to beyond the basics of a set. There are so many variables associated with this (ease of acquisition, ease of use, specific capability, general capability) that you can't simply state "it will be easy to balance".

The core mechanic of Dual Pistols is already one of the least quantifiably balanced mechanisms in the game because no one, I doubt even the devs, have decided upon a universal value that they place on the ability to shift damage types and secondary effects.

Multi-axial balance is one of the most complex things out there and is oftentimes only able to be handled in a heuristic manner in which numbers are tossed out the window and everything is based on feel. If you want to see what "balancing based on feel" looks like, just ask anyone that played in the early days of CoX: it was pretty imbalanced and virtually all of the changes were big, nasty, and generated massive discrepancies. Heuristics are notoriously unreliable, which is why I'm glad that the devs have decided that numerical analysis is the way to go.

Except that Swap Ammo is the entire gimmick of the set. You may as well claim that no one needs to take the mez toggle in an armor set or can play a set to its fullest capabilities without the use of the secondary effects. Ammunition switching is the secondary effect of Dual Pistols. You can't simply add more options at any point without taking into consideration what that does to the balance of the set as a whole.

Technically, we don't know. All we know is that the ammunition toggles change the proc rate of the specific powers in DP in the specified manner. For all we know, it could be a binary change that simply modifies powers in a binary manner (either the proc chance is on or off). You can't draw the conclusion that just because the ammunition toggles modify the proc chances they can modify every proc chance in the game. If anything, that's less than likely (though, considering the work the devs intimated, it might be). I would put my money on the conservative bet that doesn't mean that every proc chance in the game is now a controllable variable.

Don't act as if the fact that a new system was designed in order to accomplish what Dual Pistols is accomplishing is going to open up the windows for all kinds of crazy stuff to happen. We're not even sure what the capabilities of the set are or whether they can affect powers that don't already have existing pre-programmed proc chances that are specifically designed to include that functionality. For all we know, it may be a specific mechanism designed exclusively for Dual Pistols to the exclusion of all others.

What you don't seem to be realizing in all of this is that the weapon customization has no effect upon game balance or how a set plays. It's purely cosmetic. Suggesting that just because you can switch a mace out for a wrench or because you can unlock a really kewl laser sword, you should be able to get an additional tactical benefit that would actually grant a specific, unique advantage that no other set gets access to is out of that domain. Weapon customization (which DP already has since you're able to change the model you're using to shoot with) is purely aesthetic. What your suggesting is not. There is no applicable precedent for this anywhere in game.

If the devs made it so that players could get additional temporary powers that would power up a specific powerset in a specified manner, they would be opening Pandora's Box because then they would need to do it to every set to maintain equity. Dual Pistols doesn't need new and interesting ammunition types. It already has 4, which is 3 more than any other set and 2 more than most people use. Adding in additional ammunition types that you have to unlock is simply a bad idea.

Except that you're misreading what I'm saying. They're not changing how the procs operate. All we know is that turning the toggle on switches something and modifies the proc rates of the powers themselves.

When you bring up the SO/IO difference, this is exactly what I'm talking about. IO builds completely outclass SO builds. If they didn't, there wouldn't be much point. You can run with an SO build, but you're going to be doing much worse than an IO build. Of course, an IO build takes either a long time or a lot of money (and oftentimes both) in order to put together. Unless gaining these prestige ammunition types was as difficult and costly as putting together an IO build, adding in additional ammunition toggles that are completely optional would make it so that the other ammunition toggles become completely defunct.

Exactly, which is why modifying the damage type and possibly the animation would be the perfect way to logically extend the utility of the set.

As for "why DP / not my set" arguments - why not Aim for DP? The balancing factors are already in place. According to the logic of the set, you suffer the lack of a +tohit and +dmg bonus for the tactical utility of swapping ammos in the set.

I never suggested doing it without taking the balance of the set into consideration. It is a matter of providing options in the proc types of the ammo as a secondary effect - and one which is one of the major strategic advantages of the set.

I would disagree however on the necessity of the power. Swap Ammo is not necessary by any means. It might be silly to some people not to take it, but then it might be silly for blasters to not take their nova power or tanks to skip fire / ice resist powers, but players make those choices out of the options provided. The choice to take the power, buy an IO proc or Set or unlock a particular additional damage type as I'm suggesting by completing an objective in the game isn't anything other than an additional choice.

I'm just suggesting one more option which seems readily available through current game mechanics, capable of being balanced and logically consistent with the nature of the power set.

As to the extension of the idea to the Temporary Power revamp and in relation to powers beyond the Dual Pistols set, I'll admit that's a bit of a flight of fancy - but not one I think which is wholly impossible (potentially technically difficult to balance, yes), but I've been pleasantly surprised with the way that layers of complexity have been added to the game across several aspects of the game and yet the core simplicity of the AT + Power Set + Origin Enhancement mechanic has survived and remained a perfectly viable way of playing the game.

Except that you're asking for the specific utility of a set that has already used up a rather large amount of development time to be expanded without expanding the utility of every other set out there. You can't simply say that DP needs more ammunition toggles without similarly suggesting that other sets should get something commensurate. Otherwise, the devs are providing a direct benefit for only a minute quantity of power combinations.

Except that that logic doesn't exist anywhere within the set. The set doesn't get any spectacular advantage for being able to swap out secondary effects and damage types. If anything, it pays too much, but that's a completely separate balance concern that has nothing to do with "let's add more!"

Except that you're suggesting an entire addition to the game that only serves to bolster a single set in a single mechanism. Even if the ammunition type were only useful in a single situation ever, you would still be increasing the power of the set because you'd be making it more useful. You simply add something and then arbitrarily expect it to be balanced. The ability to have an additional option automatically makes it more powerful than it would otherwise be because you're giving additional options to change it on the fly.

Except that you're asking for it to only be applied to a single power set. I can assure you that there have been similar suggestions throughout the life of this game to give additional damage type options to other sets: toggles that would change some lethal damage sets to get a bit of energy damage or fire damage or what have you. These were tossed out specifically because they are too specific of a mechanic that can't be applied to other players. Every temp power out there can be used by every character in the game. If you start putting in temp powers or craftable items that can only be used by a single powerset within just 3 of the archetypes in the game, you're asking for a general improvement to a specific powerset.

The problem is not in the implementation. That it could be implemented without much effort I am reasonably confident (though it would generate a huge reservoir of empty space for a those powers for a vast majority of the time). The question is whether it is both worthwhile and needed. Having prestige ammunition types doesn't fit either of those descriptions in my opinion because it involves the generation of a whole slew of temp powers and balancing calculations just to ensure that every once in a while some characters of a specific powerset within three archetypes can shoot five different ways rather than four. Four is plenty. We don't need another 3 different ammunition types that you have to unlock or craft for whatever reason just to give the set something even fancier than everyone else has.

The only way I'd support this is if there were a similar mechanism by which other powersets could get prestige mechanisms that provide a similar parallel benefit. Considering that that would require a crapload of work (though I'll be pleasantly surprised if that's what Posi is working on for his endgame), I doubt it would happen. They're not going to give Dual Pistols even more options than everyone else when they've already got that market cornered.

I think that you may be getting stuck on the connection between the badge mechanic and the aesthetic outcomes of weapon customization. Yes, I'm proposing using the Accomplishment / Achivement / Defeat badge system to provide Unlockable ammos. That this would necessarily translate to having to use a particular model for a particular proc ammo type isn't what I am thinking at all. Would I really love some sort of Goo Gun from the Man/Woman in Black badge - probably - or a set of Rikti Pistols, sure. Do I want to swap between these every time I toggle a different ammunition (maybe... but probably not)

Regardless, if there are or are not weapon models or live gun swapping involved, (neither of which is necessary for what I'm suggesting) the Badge Earning Mechanic is what's at the heart of providing the Weapon Customization options.

So, the only sort of the Costume Effect that I'm suggesting be used is the Badge Earning mechanic, the same mechanic that provides access to Accolade Powers, titles, and - yes - the Models in Weapon Customization.

My suggestion would be to use that by unlocking badges, players are provided additional proc damage types to use (or not) as part of the Swap Ammo portion of the power set.

Tying the two together using the current triggers for Weapon Customization, (*whether there is a new pistol model involved or not*), seemed the most logical and thematically appropriate trigger mechanism - If you'll pardon the pun.

Mulling over why suggestions like unlockable ammo types may (or may not) be a bad idea is one of the reasons these forums are here. If you want to engage in a conversation about it - I'm fine with that. But if your method of engaging in conversation is to say in effect 'some players have bad ideas' without attempting to engage the proposition, then certainly - feel free to "just end it there".