The Power of the AT Icon
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-02 19:46 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
for the first comparison, its mostly because poeple are only thinking of the heals (which are a little better on a defender). IMO, play how you want.
on the second point, masterminds and corrs get dark miasma, but if your talking about it going to trollers or a form of it going to doms, then its possible something like this might be done in the future, but unlikely.
for the 3rd point, i would say theres not much correlation right now judging that controllers are hero and masterminds are villain. illusion and fire are the only control sets that have more than 1 pet, but the pet a troller gets is almost tank like because of high resists (animate stone and singularity), mastermind pets are like squishy little meatbags that even with buffs tend to die very easy.
A powerset should always be considered in relation to the AT that is using it. To use your first example. Empathy is a set that is primarily based around buffing a small number of allies. On a Defender it is the rpimary and therefore the defender's main focus. The only real limitations for secondary is that Assault Rifle and Archery are considered problematic since you frequently need to switch between blasting and healing/buffing.
For a Controller the Control set is the primary focus and the choice of secondary should ideally be one that complements it. Empathy best complements a set with a single powerful pet since that best utilizes those powerful buffs when solo. A solo Mind/Empathy Controller gets the same benefit from Empathy as a solo Empathy/Anything Defender but with a different primary he would get much better utilization of his secondary.
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Thanks for sharing. I'm curious about your reasoning though. The only thing an AT defines for me is the icon you get in the teamlist. If someone has a Scrapper icon but plays like a Tanker more power to them. With Controllers in particular, various power combos seem to produce a huge variety of different roles, including psuedo-Blappers (Fire), and psuedo-Tankers (Illusion).|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
A powerset should always be considered in relation to the AT that is using it. To use your first example. Empathy is a set that is primarily based around buffing a small number of allies. On a Defender it is the rpimary and therefore the defender's main focus. The only real limitations for secondary is that Assault Rifle and Archery are considered problematic since you frequently need to switch between blasting and healing/buffing.
For a Controller the Control set is the primary focus and the choice of secondary should ideally be one that complements it. Empathy best complements a set with a single powerful pet since that best utilizes those powerful buffs when solo. A solo Mind/Empathy Controller gets the same benefit from Empathy as a solo Empathy/Anything Defender but with a different primary he would get much better utilization of his secondary. |
I know it's popular to talk about Empathy as a "buff" set at the moment, but to me what this set is all about is really keeping people alive. And since Mind/Empathy can not only do that better than Empathy/Psi, it can actually outdamage it (I'm pretty sure), and can use 3 of its powers without pulling any aggro at all, its strange to me to see tons of Empathy/Psis and maybe 1 Mind Control/Empathy. If the set can pull the weight, why would we let an icon decide what our "focus" is?
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different powers perform differently on other ATs, its minor differences, but its true|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Thanks for sharing. I'm curious about your reasoning though. The only thing an AT defines for me is the icon you get in the teamlist. If someone has a Scrapper icon but plays like a Tanker more power to them. With Controllers in particular, various power combos seem to produce a huge variety of different roles, including psuedo-Blappers (Fire), and psuedo-Tankers (Illusion).
I know it's popular to talk about Empathy as a "buff" set at the moment, but to me what this set is all about is really keeping people alive. And since Mind/Empathy can not only do that better than Empathy/Psi, it can actually outdamage it (I'm pretty sure), and can use 3 of its powers without pulling any aggro at all, its strange to me to see tons of Empathy/Psis and maybe 1 Mind Control/Empathy. If the set can pull the weight, why would we let an icon decide what our "focus" is? |
each AT gets a certain multiplier than shows how the power works differently, a good example of it is maneuvers (since its a pool and any AT can take), defenders get higher base numbers for the defense on the power while other ATs get a little less
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/AT
heal modifier for defenders:
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| Heal Other 133.862 |
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| Heal Other 117.799 |
in terms of how you personally prefer to play, thats a different story, you can use whatever you want to use even if it doesnt seem to synergize well
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That's the thing though. Even accounting for the differences between ATs some power combos perform well at something they aren't "supposed" to be good at, at least by player logic. From the look of it, a lot of people write Mind Control off, because they feel anyone with a purple icon should have a pet. They aren't bothered that the character with blue icon, who has no pet, worse damage, and weaker controls also doesn't have a pet, because that's not an option for people with blue icons. Why all this attention to an icon and not actual output? A more consistent opinion would be either that Defenders need pets or Mind Control is fine without one. To have the opposite of both views at the same time is "mind boggling". <rimshot>| different powers perform differently on other ATs, its minor differences, but its true |
That said, I didn't consider the Leadership toggles, and I can see how someone interested in those would skew Defender. On the other hand, in light of the current Defender anti-healer rebellion, it's hard not to point out the irony that one of the only major differences between Controller and Defender Empathy is the heals! Fortitude, of course, is slightly better for Defenders as well, but IMO this doesn't make up losing access to the over-one-minute snipe-mezz a Mind Controller gets at level 8, to say nothing of the fact that all of the powers in Mind Control ignore positional defense, making the damage skew even heavier in favor of the troller.
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i wasnt saying its wrong to play a buff set on something other than a defender|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
That's the thing though. Even accounting for the differences between ATs some power combos perform well at something they aren't "supposed" to be good at, at least by player logic. From the look of it, a lot of people write Mind Control off, because they feel anyone with a purple icon should have a pet. They aren't bothered that the character with blue icon, who has no pet, worse damage, and weaker controls also doesn't have a pet, because that's not an option for people with blue icons. Why all this attention to an icon and not actual output? A more consistent opinion would be either that Defenders need pets or Mind Control is fine without one. To have the opposite of both views at the same time is "mind boggling". <rimshot>
That said, I didn't consider the Leadership toggles, and I can see how someone interested in those would skew Defender. On the other hand, in light of the current Defender anti-healer rebellion, it's hard not to point out the irony that one of the only major differences between Controller and Defender Empathy is the heals! Fortitude, of course, is slightly better for Defenders as well, but IMO this doesn't make up losing access to the over-one-minute snipe-mezz a Mind Controller gets at level 8, to say nothing of the fact that all of the powers in Mind Control ignore positional defense, making the damage skew even heavier in favor of the troller. |
a lot of doms i know like to use mind control because its the easiest to get perma dom with, and its highly valued on the LRSF when you perma dom it
in the end because the ATs only have slight differences it all comes down to personal preference.
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Well at the end of the day every Buff set is about keeping people alive. Some do it through reducing the damage enemies do via buffs or debuffs, some do it by increasing killing speed and some do it through reactive healing. Empathy uses a mix of 1 and 3.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Thanks for sharing. I'm curious about your reasoning though. The only thing an AT defines for me is the icon you get in the teamlist. If someone has a Scrapper icon but plays like a Tanker more power to them. With Controllers in particular, various power combos seem to produce a huge variety of different roles, including psuedo-Blappers (Fire), and psuedo-Tankers (Illusion).
I know it's popular to talk about Empathy as a "buff" set at the moment, but to me what this set is all about is really keeping people alive. And since Mind/Empathy can not only do that better than Empathy/Psi, it can actually outdamage it (I'm pretty sure), and can use 3 of its powers without pulling any aggro at all, its strange to me to see tons of Empathy/Psis and maybe 1 Mind Control/Empathy. If the set can pull the weight, why would we let an icon decide what our "focus" is? |
My view is that it's mostly a matter of focus. For any character their Primary powerset should be their primary focus and their Secondary should be selected so as to complement it as much as possible. It's not a matter of comparing Mind/Empathy to Empathy/Psi it's a matter of comparing Mind/Empathy to Mind/Something Else.
If someone specifically asked about a comparison between Mind/Empathy Controller and a Empathy/Psi Defender then your comparison would be valid but in most cases people say "I want a Mind controller, is Empathy a good secondary?" In that case the answer is not really, a debuff focused secondary will synergize better with Mind than a buff based secondary will (this applies regardless of which buff based secondary is being considered). It's not that Emapthy is a bad set for controllers it's that for a Mind controller specifically it's a poor secondary since it doesn't support their primary purpose as well as other sets.
Conversely if someone asked "what's a good secondary for an Empathy Defender?" I wouldn't recommend a Mind/Empathy controller I'd recommend a Defender secondary (probably sonic for more damage).
Finally I'll note that some sets simply are more useful to one classes than they are for other classes. A good example is Willpower, it offers good survivability for all three melee classes but it has a very weak taunt aura. This makes Willpower a lot worse for Tankers than Scrappers or Brutes. A Willpower Tanker has to rely a lot more on other tools to fulfill his primary duty whereas a Scrapper or Brute won't care as much.
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this is what i was trying to say, but at the time i couldnt get the words out straight
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Well at the end of the day every Buff set is about keeping people alive. Some do it through reducing the damage enemies do via buffs or debuffs, some do it by increasing killing speed and some do it through reactive healing. Empathy uses a mix of 1 and 3.
My view is that it's mostly a matter of focus. For any character their Primary powerset should be their primary focus and their Secondary should be selected so as to complement it as much as possible. It's not a matter of comparing Mind/Empathy to Empathy/Psi it's a matter of comparing Mind/Empathy to Mind/Something Else. If someone specifically asked about a comparison between Mind/Empathy Controller and a Empathy/Psi Defender then your comparison would be valid but in most cases people say "I want a Mind controller, is Empathy a good secondary?" In that case the answer is not really, a debuff focused secondary will synergize better with Mind than a buff based secondary will (this applies regardless of which buff based secondary is being considered). It's not that Emapthy is a bad set for controllers it's that for a Mind controller specifically it's a poor secondary since it doesn't support their primary purpose as well as other sets. Conversely if someone asked "what's a good secondary for an Empathy Defender?" I wouldn't recommend a Mind/Empathy controller I'd recommend a Defender secondary (probably sonic for more damage). Finally I'll note that some sets simply are more useful to one classes than they are for other classes. A good example is Willpower, it offers good survivability for all three melee classes but it has a very weak taunt aura. This makes Willpower a lot worse for Tankers than Scrappers or Brutes. A Willpower Tanker has to rely a lot more on other tools to fulfill his primary duty whereas a Scrapper or Brute won't care as much. |
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I still don't understand. In the end, why does the AT of the character determine its focus more than the actual abilities it has? The icon has no impact on gameplay except determining your expectations. It is the actual powers the character has that determine its power. A Mind/Empathy Controller ends up playing like an Empathy Defender with better mezzes. It has the single target blasts, medium AoE damage, can't farm for the most part. It has no pet to heal but neither do Empathy Defenders.| If someone specifically asked about a comparison between Mind/Empathy Controller and a Empathy/Psi Defender then your comparison would be valid but in most cases people say "I want a Mind controller, is Empathy a good secondary?" In that case the answer is not really, a debuff focused secondary will synergize better with Mind than a buff based secondary will (this applies regardless of which buff based secondary is being considered). It's not that Emapthy is a bad set for controllers it's that for a Mind controller specifically it's a poor secondary since it doesn't support their primary purpose as well as other sets. |
The buffs in Empathy don't "synergize" with ANY of the Defender secondaries, but why is this not an issue for Defenders but an isssue for Mind Control? Because Mind Control is selected from a different list of powersets? If we listed all of the Defender secondaries next to the Controller primaries when you made your selection would the Defender secondaries no longer be as good? Or is it because Empathy Defenders get access to their buff powers earlier?
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I'm sorry, if this is the core of the problem you're describing ... play with smarter people, or possibly try to educate them.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
From the look of it, a lot of people write Mind Control off, because they feel anyone with a purple icon should have a pet.
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Most of this game, especially on the default settings, is easy enough that it may not matter much who you bring to do a job. Hell, sometimes it doesn't even matter if you have someone to do a job like "protect" a team. Bringing more protection or more damage means that your team can fight with more abandon and thus possibly progress faster. More XP/time, more drops/time, less time per merit earned, what have you. That's all the focus on "who does it better" gets you.
But here's the thing - beyond a point, it doesn't actually matter who's providing extra buffs, because at some point you either reach mathematical caps and floors in the game mechanics. Does it really matter if someone on the team can mez all the foes if they can't hit anyone on the team? Do you really need anyone with tanking capability if the whole team is mez protected and at their regen rate cap? Does anyone care that a Mind Controller might be able to out DPS a /Psi Defender when there are Spines/Dark Scrappers and Fire/Mental Blasters on the team?
Between the operating extremes of "it's easy, nothing matters" and "we're gods, nothing matters", there's things like small teams taking on possibly more than they "ought" to be, perhaps because they want the challenge. In these cases AT can matter. If you lack other mitigation and want someone to tank, a Scrapper may not be able to pull it off, because they aren't as hard to kill as a Tanker. If you have plenty of mitigation but a Tanker is your main source of damage, you may progress noticeably slower, because a Scrapper or Blaster can really deal a lot more damage in general. These are the situations where people may want to choose what they bring based on comparing ATs to what's needed.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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My point is not to discourage people from playing Empathy Defenders. It is only to ask why so many people embrace Empathy on a Defender but tell you not to play Empathy paired with Mind Control.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm sorry, if this is the core of the problem you're describing ... play with smarter people, or possibly try to educate them.
Most of this game, especially on the default settings, is easy enough that it may not matter much who you bring to do a job. Hell, sometimes it doesn't even matter if you have someone to do a job like "protect" a team. Bringing more protection or more damage means that your team can fight with more abandon and thus possibly progress faster. More XP/time, more drops/time, less time per merit earned, what have you. That's all the focus on "who does it better" gets you. But here's the thing - beyond a point, it doesn't actually matter who's providing extra buffs, because at some point you either reach mathematical caps and floors in the game mechanics. Does it really matter if someone on the team can mez all the foes if they can't hit anyone on the team? Do you really need anyone with tanking capability if the whole team is mez protected and at their regen rate cap? Does anyone care that a Mind Controller might be able to out DPS a /Psi Defender when there are Spines/Dark Scrappers and Fire/Mental Blasters on the team? Between the operating extremes of "it's easy, nothing matters" and "we're gods, nothing matters", there's things like small teams taking on possibly more than they "ought" to be, perhaps because they want the challenge. In these cases AT can matter. If you lack other mitigation and want someone to tank, a Scrapper may not be able to pull it off, because they aren't as hard to kill as a Tanker. If you have plenty of mitigation but a Tanker is your main source of damage, you may progress noticeably slower, because a Scrapper or Blaster can really deal a lot more damage in general. These are the situations where people may want to choose what they bring based on comparing ATs to what's needed. |
For the reason that people suggest any powerset combination. They see some particular benefit that they consider absent in others.
If you have a pet, you can use your Empathy buffs on it. If you don't, you have a bunch of stuff you can't even indirectly benefit from when solo. That's it. It's not even particularly relevant in a team context. If you have teammates then Empathy is fully usable to either AT, and these considerations fall away.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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A Mind/Empathy Controller CAN be viewed as an Empathy/Psi Defender with better mezzes and worse buffs/healing.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I still don't understand. In the end, why does the AT of the character determine its focus more than the actual abilities it has? The icon has no impact on gameplay except determining your expectations. It is the actual powers the character has that determine its power. A Mind/Empathy Controller ends up playing like an Empathy Defender with better mezzes. It has the single target blasts, medium AoE damage, can't farm for the most part. It has no pet to heal but neither do Empathy Defenders.
The buffs in Empathy don't "synergize" with ANY of the Defender secondaries, but why is this not an issue for Defenders but an isssue for Mind Control? Because Mind Control is selected from a different list of powersets? If we listed all of the Defender secondaries next to the Controller primaries when you made your selection would the Defender secondaries no longer be as good? Or is it because Empathy Defenders get access to their buff powers earlier? |
As I said before it comes down to focus. For a controller the primary focus is on mezzes and pets (if applicable) and the secondary focus is on buffs and debuffs. For a Defender the primary focus is on buffs and debuffs and the secondary focus is on damage with limited debuffing.
When a Controller selects a secondary they will generally look for one that best supports their primary when solo. Sets that focus on buffing allies (Empathy, Thermal, Force Field etc.) are a poor choice for sets without pets (or with low damage pets) since they don't benefit as much from their secondary while soloing. It isn't to say that these sets are bad for all controllers or even that the combination will perform poorly in all circumstances it is simply that when soloing these sets won't provide as useful a bonus as they would for a different primary. Fire/Empathy for example works well since you can Fortitude the Imps for more damage/defense.
When a Defender selects their secondary they are similarly looking for one that best complements their primary when solo. In general a Defender with a secondary that focuses on buffing allies will generally prefer one of the higher damage blast sets (Sonic or Archery in particular) since it helps compensate for their inability to use a lot of their primary while soloing. Conversely Defenders with a primary that boosts their damage but provides little mitigation (like Kinetics) will favor the sets with better mitigation (like Energy or Ice) since that will help keep them safe while soloing. The other consideration for Defenders is redraw. Some primary sets (like Empathy) encourage rapid switching between primary and secondary powers making Archery and Assault Rifle a poor choice as a secondary. Others (like Traps) encourage a style where you use a bunch of primary powers at the start of combat then focus mostly on blasting until things are dead which makes weapon based sets more practical. And of course for a Trick Arrow Defender archery eliminates the need to worry about redraw entirely.
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Because Empathy can synergize BETTER with any other primary for controllers.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The buffs in Empathy don't "synergize" with ANY of the Defender secondaries, but why is this not an issue for Defenders but an isssue for Mind Control?
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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It still can't synergize for Defenders. Why are you ignoring the output of the character, and looking only at the archetype?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Because Empathy can synergize BETTER with any other primary for controllers.
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It can't synergize for defenders. Therefor synergy is not taken into consideration when evaluating the combination.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It still can't synergize for Defenders. Why are you ignoring the output of the character, and looking only at the archetype?
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It can synergyze on a controller. We're not playing football anymore, we're playing hockey. You need to figure out a good stick to use with the puck, you can't just use your hands.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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because the AT you are using DOES make a difference, controllers get containment while defenders get vigilance, containment better benefits the controller to get the overpowering mezzes and doing more dmg to mezzed enemies, the defenders vigilance gives them a huge endurance discount when on a team, so they have more freedom to slot their heals without worrying about endurance|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It still can't synergize for Defenders. Why are you ignoring the output of the character, and looking only at the archetype?
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again, this doesnt stop anyone from using powersets that dont work superbly together, all the combos dont have to be perfect, if its your preference to use a empath controller instead of an empath defender because it makes more sense to you, then do it!, your paying your monthly fee to play how you want to play, if someone tells you otherwise, you can just disregard it or thats why you have an ignore list and the rating/note system so you can avoid poeple like that.
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Make that one more reason to go Controller. |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
...vigilance...
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But seriously. I'm not interested in telling people not to play certain combos. I'm mainly curious why so many people will tell you certain combos are bad purely based on archetype without accounting for what the character's actual output is. Modifiers and innate abilities are great and all, but ultimately they add up to a character than can pull a certain amount of weight. And it really makes no sense to say "Well that total level of output is just fine on a Defender, but since other Controllers can do so much more, it sucks on a troller," because that's the same as saying it sucks on the Defender too.
I think my problem with this whole discussion is that I just don't see people making this argument against Empathy on a Mind Controller. It's a fairly nonsensical argument for a raft of reasons.
First of all, on the forums Empathy gets something of a bad rap because so much of what it is well known for (its healing) isn't that powerful an effect compared to buffs and debuffs. So the idea that people are arguing that Empathy is OK on Defenders seems kind of shaky to me. Have these people read the Defender forums in the last 3 years or so? (Note carefully that I said it has a bad rap for what it's well known for - I'm well aware that the set has effective buffs.)
Are you sure you're not inverting the argument "don't take Empathy unless you're a Controller with a pet to cast buffs on?" I ask because that is a less odd position to take, though it's really only valid if you're talking about soloing. It would also be not quite the same as "Don't take Empathy on a Mind Controller but take it on a Defender."
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Here's the thing, Player "logic" typically is heavily based on their personal player experience and maybe, in rare cases some basic numbers. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
That's the thing though. Even accounting for the differences between ATs some power combos perform well at something they aren't "supposed" to be good at, at least by player logic.
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Overall if you simply stick to what people say is "good" or "bad" on this forum you would wind up not playing anything at all or at best, miss some decent powersets. What you should instead do is simply make an alt, play the character and make it work for you.
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i would be agreeing with you on this, after a post or 2, i honestly did not think this was going anywhere.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think my problem with this whole discussion is that I just don't see people making this argument against Empathy on a Mind Controller. It's a fairly nonsensical argument for a raft of reasons.
First of all, on the forums Empathy gets something of a bad rap because so much of what it is well known for (its healing) isn't that powerful an effect compared to buffs and debuffs. So the idea that people are arguing that Empathy is OK on Defenders seems kind of shaky to me. Have these people read the Defender forums in the last 3 years or so? (Note carefully that I said it has a bad rap for what it's well known for - I'm well aware that the set has effective buffs.) Are you sure you're not inverting the argument "don't take Empathy unless you're a Controller with a pet to cast buffs on?" I ask because that is a less odd position to take, though it's really only valid if you're talking about soloing. It would also be not quite the same as "Don't take Empathy on a Mind Controller but take it on a Defender." |
i think this whole thing is about personal preference but asking why poeple say "you shouldnt play that build", but ive mentioned a few times that it doesnt matter what other poeple think of your build
honestly, as far as ive seen, this isnt going anywhere or what the point of the discussion is, yes its about AT differences, and ive pointed them out, and yet the argument still persists and i dont know what hes trying to prove, yes the AT differences are minor, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt make the build just because others say you shouldnt, if you want to make empath controller, then more power to you, but if someone wants to make an empath defender, then thats up to them
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You seem to be saying, "Defenders suck, Controllers are better." You seem to be saying this very loudly. Very loudly. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It still can't synergize for Defenders. Why are you ignoring the output of the character, and looking only at the archetype?
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The truth is, a lot of people agree with you. A lot of people look at the damage a Mind/Empathy Controller can do, look at the damage a Empathy/Psi Blast Defender can do, look at the fact that a Defender has Ranged blasts as its Secondary and is by design a combination of damage dealer and team support, and say "Why can't Defenders do more damage than that?" A question for the devs to answer, not us.
Ironically, the answer to your Dark Miasma question is related to the same. The question becomes, "Why should we support Proliferating a Set to Controllers, which is primarily based around Control Powers, and would likely be more powerful in the hands of a Controller, when it's pretty much the only thing Defenders have which is competitive with a Controller?
The thing is, Controllers are SUPPOSED to be better support for their team. That is their stated purpose, to buff AND hold. OTOH, Defenders are supposed to compensate for this reduced role with greater damage. Is that compensation adequate, given the obvious power of Containment and a Controller's pets? Again, a question for the devs to answer. I can't say that spite is the answer, but I can't say that it's not a solution in search of a problem, either.
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I think it comes down to player perceptions. The majority of controllers can solo reasonably well, their damage isn't as high as a blaster or scrapper but they make up for it with controls. So if you say I want a controller with powerset X, which other set should I use with it? People will tend to look at it from a solo viewpoint first and a group viewpoint second. In a group Mind/empathy is a fine combination but it's a poor solo'er and people tend to judge controllers that way. Additionally people tend to give the Controller's secondary almost as much weight as it's primary when considering the character, this is because all of the secondaries work differently.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Make that one more reason to go Controller.
But seriously. I'm not interested in telling people not to play certain combos. I'm mainly curious why so many people will tell you certain combos are bad purely based on archetype without accounting for what the character's actual output is. Modifiers and innate abilities are great and all, but ultimately they add up to a character than can pull a certain amount of weight. And it really makes no sense to say "Well that total level of output is just fine on a Defender, but since other Controllers can do so much more, it sucks on a troller," because that's the same as saying it sucks on the Defender too. |
Conversely for Defenders soloing ability is defined a lot more by the Primary than the Secondary. Additionally when judging Defenders people tend to gloss over the exact secondary being used, this is justified since even though all of the sets are different they all focus on damage, the only difference is exactly how much damage they do and whether their secondary effects boost damage or survivability. Because of this if someone says that they are making an Empathy Defender there is a built in assumption that they already know the Defender will be at best a mediocre soloer. If they wanted a Defender who solo'd well they'd pick a different primary.
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Because you can't play an Empathy/Mind Control Defender. ATs define what sets you can get and, by extension, how you will play. It boils down a bit to the synergy in the sets and how you want to leverage it.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It still can't synergize for Defenders. Why are you ignoring the output of the character, and looking only at the archetype?
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Why is Mind Control/Empathy seen as less viable than X/Empathy? Because Mind's lack of a pet means you can't make use of Empathy's power buffs when solo. When teamed, it doesn't matter and nobody cares, but that minor hit is enough for some people to rule it out.
Why then is Empathy/Psy fine for Defenders even though it lacks that synergy as well? Because Empathy doesn't synergize with ANY Defender secondary, so the sky's the limit. Any choice is equal to any other in this case. It will come down to personal preference.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
I'm wondering if others have noticed that some people form opinions and give advice about powersets based mostly on the archetype, without really cross comparing their comments to other ATs. How much sway should the AT icon have on our opinions of a powerset combo? A few musings below.
Mind Control/Empathy Controller vs. Empathy/Psi Blast Defender.
If you ask about how Mind Control/Empathy plays, some people will tell you not to do it because Mind lacks a pet to heal, and having a pet is "one of the biggest reasons to play a Controller." Meanwhile, they will tell you that Empathy/Mind Blast works fine. What seems to be missed is that the Controller outcontrols the Defender (obviously), and actually matches or betters it in damage, excepting the nuke. How is the fact that some Controllers get pets a disadvantage for Mind Control, but the fact that no Defenders get pets a neutral for Psi Blast?
Dark Miasma
Some people say this set shouldn't be proliferated because it makes Defenders unique (on heroside). But how does Dark Miasma make a Storm, Trick Arrow, Kinetics, Force Field, Sonic Res, or Empathy Defender more unique when those sets can't use the powers anyway? (For these purposes I'm speaking purely about the argument that it makes Defenders unique, and leaving arguments about overpoweredness aside.)
Fire Control/Force Field vs. anything Mastermind
Back to the pet thing. Why do some people insist that for a Controller, obtaining and protecting a pet sets some sets far ahead of others when there is an archetype that completely kicks a Controller's butt at this and adds the ability to solo AVs more easily? The answer could be extra controls, but when folks are advising everyone to go with the control-lite Fire Control it makes me wonder. Maybe my assessment of Fire Control is wrong, but aside from farmability the Mastermind completely rules it, at least on the protect-a-pet ability.