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The Power of the AT Icon

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-02 19:46 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
You seem to be saying, "Defenders suck, Controllers are better." You seem to be saying this very loudly. Very loudly.
No. What I am saying is it is logicially inconsistent to say that a buffing Controller without a pet is a poor choice, but a Defender is better based on the fact that no other Defender set gets a pet. I don't think buffing Defenders are bad, but I am also not someone who thinks a buffing Mind Controller is bad either.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
No. What I am saying is it is logicially inconsistent to say that a buffing Controller without a pet is a poor choice, but a Defender is better based on the fact that no other Defender set gets a pet. I don't think buffing Defenders are bad, but I am also not someone who thinks a buffing Mind Controller is bad either.
Well, let me put it this way. If a Mind/Empathy Controller is no better than a Empathy/Psi Defender, does this in any way change the fact that Controllers with pets DO have synergy with the Empathy set, and can use their Secondary on their pet? It seems to me that the Defender comparison is unrelated to the difference between Controllers.

Are you saying a Mind/Empathy Controller IS better than a X/Empathy Controller?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
Well, let me put it this way. If a Mind/Empathy Controller is no better than a Empathy/Psi Defender, does this in any way change the fact that Controllers with pets DO have synergy with the Empathy set, and can use their Secondary on their pet? It seems to me that the Defender comparison is unrelated to the difference between Controllers.
Controllers with pets do have synergy with Empathy. Mind Control doesn't have that particular synergy, so I can see why some people say Mind/Empathy isn't ideal. But Defenders don't have that synergy either. The differences between Controller and Defender Empathy are very small. It leads to two possibilities:

1) Both Mind Control/Empathy and /Empathy Defenders are ok despite not having a pet
2) Both Mind Control/Empathy and /Empathy Defenders are not ideal because they lack a pet

For what it's worth, I'm in camp #1.

The problem is a lot of people seem to maintain an option 3, that Mind/Control Empathy is not ideal, because that's a Controller, but on the Defender it's not an issue because no Defender has a pet. My question is why is Mind Control only compared against Control sets and not against the total available possibilities? If Empathy Defenders work fine without a pet, Mind Control should as well. But it doesn't, according to a lot of people, because a Controller is compared against a Controller and a Defender against a Defender, without comparing a character against a character and reaching a logically justifiable conclusion.

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Are you saying a Mind/Empathy Controller IS better than a X/Empathy Controller?
No I don't think that.

I also don't think the reverse though, that Mind/Empathy is worse than other trollers. Mind Control/Empathy works like an Empathy Defender with a lot of mitigation. I would actually argue that there is more synergy between Mind/Empathy than something like Fire/Empathy, mainly because Mind/Empathy is better united by overall purpose. It depends on the focus of the character of course, but for team building I'd want the Controller who keeps a team safe over the one who keeps a bunch of fire imps alive. Soloing changes the equation, but again the Mind/Empathy solos much better than most Empathy Defenders, and most people who play them are ok (or at least accustomed to) how solo-unfriendly the Defender is; it seems unfair to dump on Mind Control about it.

Hope that helps to clarify.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I also don't think the reverse though, that Mind/Empathy is worse than other trollers.
On a team you are correct, it's a not particuarly better or worse than any other controller. Solo however it is a poor combination, Other Primary/Empathy will get more use out of Empathy's single target Buffs since they can use them on their pets while in general Mind Control/Other Secondary will get more secondary powers that are useful to the soloing Mind Controller.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
My question is why is Mind Control only compared against Control sets and not against the total available possibilities? If Empathy Defenders work fine without a pet, Mind Control should as well. But it doesn't, according to a lot of people, because a Controller is compared against a Controller and a Defender against a Defender, without comparing a character against a character and reaching a logically justifiable conclusion.
An Emp/Psy defender trades off a */Emp controller's internal synergy (pet buffing) for higher buff values, strengthening his team power at the cost of his individual power.

An MC/Emp controller trades off the team power (getting controllers' lower buff and heal values) but does not get the synergy in exchange.

Leaving other sets out of it, comparing the MC/Emp to the Emp/Psy you are comparing someone who gives up a lot of the buffing strength of the Emp/Psy for added control on the powers. Many players don't think that's a good tradeoff. That's all. Your assumption leaves out the AT modifiers on the powers' numerical effectiveness, but this is actually a pretty major factor that shouldn't be ignored.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
The problem is a lot of people seem to maintain an option 3, that Mind/Control Empathy is not ideal, because that's a Controller, but on the Defender it's not an issue because no Defender has a pet.
Well, given that "not ideal" means "not as strong as other Controller options", I would say the comparison is a valid one, because there ARE options where the Controller has a pet. There is no option where a Defender has a buffable pet, (in the Secondary, anyway) thus there is no "not ideal" combination.

In the comparison to Controllers with pets, you might say that the Mind/Empathy Controller is "not ideal", but you might also say the the Defender options are all EQUALLY as "not ideal". You seem to be forming the comparison Mind Controller < Other Controller and Emp Defender = Other Defender, resulting in Mind Controller < Emp Defender, when in fact it could just as easily be Mind Controller = Emp Defender = Other Defender < Other Controller.

I actually would argue the point, though, because there are plenty of Defender sets that Empathy is "not ideal" when compared to in terms of damage. Any debuffing Defender Primary will allow damage buffs while solo, whether you have a pet or not. The same is true of Controllers, Rad offers -Res to the Controller whether he has a pet or not.

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If Empathy Defenders work fine without a pet, Mind Control should as well.
"Works fine" != "as good as"

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I would actually argue that there is more synergy between Mind/Empathy than something like Fire/Empathy, mainly because Mind/Empathy is better united by overall purpose.
In what way? Empathy's tools are a self/team heal, and a couple of powers to boost HP and End recovery, plus several buffs to teammates or pets. Mind consists of a set of holds and sleeps, as well as a couple of Confuses and a Fear power which does significant damage. Outside of the End recovery allowing more End for multiple applications of holds and/or damage, in what way does Empathy boost those effects? It does not boost holds, and it cannot raise Terrify's damage.

There is a conceptual synergy, but not a gameplay one. There is not even a common secondary effect, like -Recharge, which could be stacked for greater effect.

I'll also add that for the most part I'm pretty sure we are talking about the capabilities of the AT solo. Although, as none of the ally buffs effect the caster as well, there still is nothing the Empathy Controller can do to boost his holds or damage. A Rad Controller, by contrast, could use Enervating Field to boost the damage of Terrify, while stacking Choking Cloud's effect with Total Domination. Of course, this is not to say those effects would be greater than the benefit of Fortification or Adrenaline Boost, but as far as synergy goes, that could apply to any Controller Primary.

 

Posted

See above.

Controller w/Pet and Empathy > Controller w/Mind Control and Empathy.

Controller w/Mind Control and Empathy ~= Defender w/Empathy and Psi Blast.

Defender w/Empathy and Psi Blast ~= Defender w/Empathy and any other secondary.

Note that there is an option available for one AT that is not available for the other.

This is not saying that people are ignoring the overall performance, but the other option would be to tell everyone that asks about making an Empathy Defender to "delete/don't make a Defender, just make a Controller instead". The assumption is that people pick an AT because they want to play that AT - it is, after all, the first choice you make when creating a character. Since the options for Defenders don't include a pet at all, there's an amount of ambivalence towards the exact secondary chosen. Since the options for Controllers offer most powersets that will have pets, and one that doesn't, the one that doesn't is referred to as "worse".

This all has been said before in the thread. I don't know why it hasn't sunk in for you yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

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This is not saying that people are ignoring the overall performance, but the other option would be to tell everyone that asks about making an Empathy Defender to "delete/don't make a Defender, just make a Controller instead". The assumption is that people pick an AT because they want to play that AT - it is, after all, the first choice you make when creating a character. Since the options for Defenders don't include a pet at all, there's an amount of ambivalence towards the exact secondary chosen. Since the options for Controllers offer most powersets that will have pets, and one that doesn't, the one that doesn't is referred to as "worse".
Thank you. I think this is the best explanation anyone has given so far. I disagree with the logic but it at least summarizes why people give out advice like they do.

 

Posted

Again, I wouldn't waste too much to trying to figure out the minds of players here. Lots of things passed off as fact are often just repeated opinion. After hanging around the forum for years you begin to see the same discussions, rebuttals and posted "logic" that has nothing to do fact but has a whole lot to do with play style and assumptions.



 

Posted

Nope, I haven't noticed that people restrict their powerset opinions to ATs at all. Empathy is universally pretty awful no matter what the AT, especially compared to some of the newer equivalent options like Pain Dom. And unless you're Ghost Widow, Mind is equally meh with the only use of it that comes immediately to my mind is having an overly easy time for the last part of the LRSF.

Otherwise, pretty much all the other controller secondaries and defender (I think; not as familiar with Defs as with Corrs) primaries are better picks than Emp although TA does seem to fall behind the rest a bit as well.

Once the premise of your theory makes no sense, it's pointless addressing the rest of it.

 

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Originally Posted by tarrantm View Post
Nope, I haven't noticed that people restrict their powerset opinions to ATs at all. Empathy is universally pretty awful no matter what the AT, especially compared to some of the newer equivalent options like Pain Dom. And unless you're Ghost Widow, Mind is equally meh with the only use of it that comes immediately to my mind is having an overly easy time for the last part of the LRSF.
Empathy has not now nor ever been "universally awful". It contains some of the most powerful buffs that even Pain cannot compare to. There aren't any powersets in the game that are "awful", just players who play them poorly.



 

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Originally Posted by Altoholic_Monkey View Post
Empathy has not now nor ever been "universally awful". It contains some of the most powerful buffs that even Pain cannot compare to. There aren't any powersets in the game that are "awful", just players who play them poorly.
Indeed, Empathy isn't the best buff set out there, but it is far from useless. It just has a poor rep due to people who play it poorly.

 

Posted

Empathy's undiscovered (by the unwashed masses) and untapped (by the unwashed masses) potential that makes it on par with all the other sets but differently is just a variation of the unique snowflake syndrome.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by tarrantm View Post
Empathy's undiscovered (by the unwashed masses) and untapped (by the unwashed masses) potential that makes it on par with all the other sets but differently is just a variation of the unique snowflake syndrome.
You really are flipping from one extreme to the other here aren't you?

Personally I would say that a Empathy excels in three places:
1. At lower levels (up to the low to mid twenties)
2. On smaller teams (5 players max)
3. During Hamidon raids.

Outside those places it's still a very nice set but other sets do tend to outshine it although Empathy is still good, especially if you have two on the same team.

EDIT: Ok, I did the math and all I can say is WOW! Assume we have two Defender Empaths who have Fortitude, the Auras, Adrenalin Boost and Hasten all ED capped for Recharge (and Defense for Fortitude). If they cast Adrenalin Boost on each other then they get almost perma-hasten and can permanently AB each other. This allows them to keep at least one set of auras up constantly and they can each keep 7 instances of fortitude going (i.e. they each get ti one and their teammates get two). This means that everyone else on the team has soft-capped defenses, a 61.5% damage boost, a 37.5% To hit boost and a huge regen/recovery boost. The Empaths themselves don't have as much damage and defense but they have even more regen/recovery and enough recharge to keep the blasts flying.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
You really are flipping from one extreme to the other here aren't you?

Personally I would say that a Empathy excels in three places:
1. At lower levels (up to the low to mid twenties)
2. On smaller teams (5 players max)
3. During Hamidon raids.

Outside those places it's still a very nice set but other sets do tend to outshine it although Empathy is still good, especially if you have two on the same team.

EDIT: Ok, I did the math and all I can say is WOW! Assume we have two Defender Empaths who have Fortitude, the Auras, Adrenalin Boost and Hasten all ED capped for Recharge (and Defense for Fortitude). If they cast Adrenalin Boost on each other then they get almost perma-hasten and can permanently AB each other. This allows them to keep at least one set of auras up constantly and they can each keep 7 instances of fortitude going (i.e. they each get ti one and their teammates get two). This means that everyone else on the team has soft-capped defenses, a 61.5% damage boost, a 37.5% To hit boost and a huge regen/recovery boost. The Empaths themselves don't have as much damage and defense but they have even more regen/recovery and enough recharge to keep the blasts flying.

Those numbers have been crunched before and applied in repeated practice in Green Machine, an all Empathy Defender SG around since 2005 on Freedom, behold the power of buffs multiplied!

Re tarrantm: The power of Empathy is hardly an undiscovered or untapped power. At least those of us in RO have been aware of this source for a few years and most of us got together within the Defender section of this forum.



 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Mind Control/Empathy Controller vs. Empathy/Psi Blast Defender.
If you ask about how Mind Control/Empathy plays, some people will tell you not to do it because Mind lacks a pet to heal, and having a pet is "one of the biggest reasons to play a Controller." Meanwhile, they will tell you that Empathy/Mind Blast works fine. What seems to be missed is that the Controller outcontrols the Defender (obviously), and actually matches or betters it in damage, excepting the nuke.
Ok, now iv heard it all.

Mind/ Controller Primary can out control a /Psi Blast Defender, but by no means can it out damage it, nore can it do the same amount of damage.Not even with containment, not ever.This is also not including the Nuke /Psi gets.

I have no idea where you came up with this, or where anyone else would say that it can do what youv claimed.

Id also like to address someone saying there are no pets in the Defenders sets.Again, just like the OPs statement about Psi Blasts doing less damage, or the same damage as a controllers Mind Primary, your wrong.

Dark Servant, is in the Dark Miasma primary for a Defender, its also a "Pet", and can be accessed at level 32, just like a Controller Primary that gets a pet/s at level 32.

But WAIT!Theres more!

What about Traps?

Force Field Generator is a pet.

Acid Mortar is a pet.

Seeker Drones, short lived, but are pets.

Storm Primary for Defenders offers up Tornado, and even Lightning Storm as well.Both considered pets.

"But Fire_Minded!Those cant be pets!They are short lived and are limited in there function!"

"Ahhhhh, then what do you call Controller pets?They are pets that have limited functions, and are short lived as well."

I think people get the Idea that a pet only counts as a pet if it follows you, and fights for you, instead of just assisting you for brief amounts of time.Which if you look at alot of Controller Pets, they have a specific function, and are as simple as a Defenders Pets.

Even the Secondary for a Defender has a short lived pet in the Electrical Blasts secondaries.Blaster get it as a Primary, and Corrs do to.Lets not forget that Blasters even get 2 pets in Devices Secondary.

Targeting Drone Classifies as a pet, the same way Voltiac Sentinal does, and lets not forget the Gun Drone.

Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, Blasters, and Dominators, all get a limited list of pets, in some way or another.

Masterminds are the ones that can have the "Most" pets out of them all.

Alot of people that say that its just this way, and that AT cant do this, or this is better then that, need to acctually know what the hell they are talking about.

Theres soo many things, that I dont even want to continue any further, mainly because its taking way to freaking long to point out the things people know nothing about.

Please, play what you slander before making a complete boob out of your self.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded View Post
Ok, now iv heard it all.

Mind/ Controller Primary can out control a /Psi Blast Defender, but by no means can it out damage it, nore can it do the same amount of damage.Not even with containment, not ever.This is also not including the Nuke /Psi gets.

I have no idea where you came up with this, or where anyone else would say that it can do what youv claimed.

I won't claim to be perfect. I was going to leave this thread alone because I felt like it was just going in circles, with me asking why people only compare characters to other characters within the same archetype and folks replying to say because, well, they are the same archetype. It seemed pretty clear despite our rationalizations for each of our outlooks that we weren't going to convince each other of much. Neither side really budged and I'm not interested in getting into a flame war.

However since you challenged me on the numbers I decided to post what actually led me to ask the original question. I won't claim these numbers are perfect or even relevant, but since Mind Control is basically a blast set with some heavy controls thrown in, it seemed like an ok way to do the evaluation. I didn't look at it as deeply as Arcanatime or anything like that, just comparing the damage-per-recharge of various powers.



Now I'm sure someone will say a different Controller could get even better numbers or more reliable containment which I won't dispute. The only thing I ever meant to point out is that it doesn't make sense to call a Mind/Empathy Controller a poor choice but then say Empathy/Psi Blast is just fine. Especially when you consider that the numbers from Mind Control are accompanied by powerful mezzes that Psi Blast doesn't match. Not to mention, Mind Control gets even more damage from enemies it can Confuse--from range, without pulling any aggro, prior to even starting the fight.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded View Post
Ok, now iv heard it all.

Mind/ Controller Primary can out control a /Psi Blast Defender, but by no means can it out damage it, nore can it do the same amount of damage.Not even with containment, not ever.This is also not including the Nuke /Psi gets.

I have no idea where you came up with this, or where anyone else would say that it can do what youv claimed.

Id also like to address someone saying there are no pets in the Defenders sets.Again, just like the OPs statement about Psi Blasts doing less damage, or the same damage as a controllers Mind Primary, your wrong.

Dark Servant, is in the Dark Miasma primary for a Defender, its also a "Pet", and can be accessed at level 32, just like a Controller Primary that gets a pet/s at level 32.

But WAIT!Theres more!

What about Traps?

Force Field Generator is a pet.

Acid Mortar is a pet.

Seeker Drones, short lived, but are pets.

Storm Primary for Defenders offers up Tornado, and even Lightning Storm as well.Both considered pets.

"But Fire_Minded!Those cant be pets!They are short lived and are limited in there function!"

"Ahhhhh, then what do you call Controller pets?They are pets that have limited functions, and are short lived as well."

I think people get the Idea that a pet only counts as a pet if it follows you, and fights for you, instead of just assisting you for brief amounts of time.Which if you look at alot of Controller Pets, they have a specific function, and are as simple as a Defenders Pets.

Even the Secondary for a Defender has a short lived pet in the Electrical Blasts secondaries.Blaster get it as a Primary, and Corrs do to.Lets not forget that Blasters even get 2 pets in Devices Secondary.

Targeting Drone Classifies as a pet, the same way Voltiac Sentinal does, and lets not forget the Gun Drone.

Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, Blasters, and Dominators, all get a limited list of pets, in some way or another.

Masterminds are the ones that can have the "Most" pets out of them all.

Alot of people that say that its just this way, and that AT cant do this, or this is better then that, need to acctually know what the hell they are talking about.

Theres soo many things, that I dont even want to continue any further, mainly because its taking way to freaking long to point out the things people know nothing about.

Please, play what you slander before making a complete boob out of your self.
And perhaps you could enlighten those of us that aren't complete idiots and already understand what we're talking about as to how one is supposed to have an Empathy Defender that also has Dark Servant? Or how the secondaries which are available - which is what was being discussed - provide your single-target buffs with any usefulness while solo simply because some of them provide (nontargettable, unbuffable) pseudopets. Sure, Traps and Dark Miasma offer buffable pets, but those aren't exactly available in Empathy now, are they?

Or just take your own advice, read the discussion going on in the thread, and stop making a boob out of yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

I looked over the table and realized I could slide things around to present a slightly better case for Psi Blast by comparing TK Blast to Levitate and Mesmerize to Will Domination. of course real DpR calculations wouldn't be based on a power-by-power analysis. I just want to show that if nothing else the sets are very close in damage, with Mind Control possibly doing more damage.

 

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Originally Posted by Altoholic_Monkey View Post
Those numbers have been crunched before and applied in repeated practice in Green Machine, an all Empathy Defender SG around since 2005 on Freedom, behold the power of buffs multiplied!
Yeah, I'm sure I'm far from the first person to do it, I just hadn't done the math before and was surprised at how good it was with just two Empaths working together.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I looked over the table and realized I could slide things around to present a slightly better case for Psi Blast by comparing TK Blast to Levitate and Mesmerize to Will Domination. of course real DpR calculations wouldn't be based on a power-by-power analysis. I just want to show that if nothing else the sets are very close in damage, with Mind Control possibly doing more damage.
Hmm...

As far as I can see you can really only compare two powers from the same set and both of those powers come from the APP pool and not the main powerset. You could have just easily added in Dominate or World of Confusion from the defender APP pool as well. Even if say you didn't, don't you think if you're using powers available at level 41 you should also include Psychic Wail to your chart too? The APP gives other AT access to tools it wouldn't normally have. Controllers get blasts and Defenders get a mix of Scrapper and Blaster powers. Controllers get a mix of Tank and Blaster powers. Both of which makes them a bit stronger than they were before.

Since you've said the chart can be moved in either direction in favor of the Defender or the Controller, I don't understand why the chart was created in the first place. There appears to be a few ways to skew the information to favor Mind or Psy Blast using a variety of factors.



 

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Originally Posted by Altoholic_Monkey View Post
As far as I can see you can really only compare two powers from the same set and both of those powers come from the APP pool and not the main powerset. You could have just easily added in Dominate or World of Confusion from the defender APP pool as well.
Dominate, sure. World of Confusion... why? Controllers and Defenders both get it, at the same level, and it's the same power for both. And why would I ignore powers in the APP? Are those powers less "real"? They may come later, but they do come.

For the record, Dominate for Defenders does 36.1 damage with a Recharge of 16 seconds. That's half as much damage-per-recharge as Controller Dominate, and one quarter as much when Containment is factored in. It also has a shorter mezz duration than Controller Dominate and no chance to Overpower. I don't know why the Controller APP blasts are better than the Defender "core" blasts, and the Defender APP mezzes are worse than the Controller "core" mezzes, but they are.

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Even if say you didn't, don't you think if you're using powers available at level 41 you should also include Psychic Wail to your chart too? Or are we going to discount the fact that a Defender has access to all the powers in the chart by level 28 and a controller will have access to 4 powers by the same level?
We could play this game forever. "Are you going to discount that the Mind Controller can do X Y and Z?" Read the numbers how you want, because if you're intent on it you will find some flaw or another. I left the snipe and the nuke off of the chart because I'm under the impression that most Empathy Defenders skip it. Maybe that's wrong. I'm not committed to it one way or another; my only point is to show that the numbers are very close, the Controller possibly having an edge. It has never been my intent to stop people from playign Empathy Defenders.

But all of this explanation is really pointless because I don't think, for a lot of people, the numbers matter as much as world view. They believe the set is inferior, so it must be. I guess those folks are still fans of Trick Arrow [runs].


[Edit: I'm a little confused. Did you just edit your post to remove what you originally said. If so I'll edit my comments to reflect your edited argument. Thanks. -OT]

 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Yeah, I'm sure I'm far from the first person to do it, I just hadn't done the math before and was surprised at how good it was with just two Empaths working together.
It still doesn't change the fact that for the majority of the game Emp is just meh. I'm sure there are similar situations in which the rest of the powersets shine while still being more 'special' than Emp like Dark turning the user into a controller while flooring to hit and giving -res while Kin caps group damage and makes AVs hit like kittens. So you need 2 Emps in a group to even notice a wow factor from them, which kinda proves my point.

 

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Originally Posted by tarrantm View Post
It still doesn't change the fact that for the majority of the game Emp is just meh. I'm sure there are similar situations in which the rest of the powersets shine while still being more 'special' than Emp like Dark turning the user into a controller while flooring to hit and giving -res while Kin caps group damage and makes AVs hit like kittens. So you need 2 Emps in a group to even notice a wow factor from them, which kinda proves my point.
In general I agree, Empathy isn't a great set, it's a good set but not great. However the thing to consider is that for most other buff sets stacking them is additive. Having two of the same set is only twice as good as having one (and for some sets even less). The nature of Empathy means that two Empaths are significantly more than twice as powerful as one.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Dominate, sure. World of Confusion... why? Controllers and Defenders both get it, at the same level, and it's the same power for both. And why would I ignore powers in the APP? Are those powers less "real"? They may come later, but they do come.

We could play this game forever. "Are you going to discount that the Mind Controller can do X Y and Z?" Read the numbers how you want, because if you're intent on it you will find some flaw or another. I left the snipe and the nuke off of the chart because I'm under the impression that most Empathy Defenders skip it. Maybe that's wrong. I'm not committed to it one way or another; my only point is to show that the numbers are very close, the Controller possibly having an edge. It has never been my intent to stop people from playign Empathy Defenders.

But all of this explanation is really pointless because I don't think, for a lot of people, the numbers matter as much as world view. They believe the set is inferior, so it must be. I guess those folks are still fans of Trick Arrow [runs].
That was my point that the numbers could be read or skewed however you wanted by using a bunch of factors.

As for the "world view", it depends on the world you're in. In my world, as far as those that I team with, don't think of Empathy as inferior. These same defenders take their nuke and use it. When you say "they", it should be kept in mind that your "they" is very different from my "they" and it'll probably be different from the next player's "they".

I still state strongly that there aren't any inferior powersets, just poorly played ones. If anyone wants to make a Empathy/Psi or Mind/Empathy go ahead. Use those powers to the best of their abilities and enjoy yourself. I don't think you're trying to dissuade anyone from making an Empathy Defender, I do think though that you're trying hard to make the case for Mind/Empathy Controller but I don't think a case needs to be made for either. Both powerset combinations have their uses.

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[Edit: I'm a little confused. Did you just edit your post to remove what you originally said. If so I'll edit my comments to reflect your edited argument. Thanks. -OT]
You don't need to, it's not a big deal. I just boiled the post down to my main point and took out the more argumentative bits.

PS I totally forgot that WoC is available to both Defenders and Controllers. (doh!)