Broadsword, Battle Axe, War Mace: Alternate Animations long overdue.

While that may not be precisely what BaBs says, it strongly implies it. The current interface allows customization of the animation or the graphics through the Power Customization Screen. Currently, you can EITHER customize the animation and color, as with Super Strength and Martial Arts, OR you can only customize the graphics. However, as there are multiple selections for the graphics, Dark and Bright options, and so on, as well as the original Legacy choices, I would guess that the ability to change the animation associated with one of those graphics types would be simple enough to add. You would just have the animations as additional choices just as the animations for SS and MA are selectable choices.

The problem is that there is ONE selector in the interface for those options. You cannot change BOTH the animation for a power AND its graphics separately. Each power has an animation and a graphic that is linked to it. There is a Bright Foot Stomp and a Dark Foot Stomp, a Bright Ground Punch and a Dark Ground Punch. But you can't select Bright and Dark separately from Foot Stomp or Ground Punch. This doesn't mean you can't have both Bright and Dark for both, but it's four different options. (And you wouldn't want to have the animation from Foot Stomp with the glow from your fist for Ground Punch anyway)

Powers that have a selectable weapon, which is selected on the Costume Screen, disable the ability to select animation and graphic. According to BaBs, this is a limitation of the system. If you could change the animation, then you could change the graphic, and if you can change the weapon, then you CAN'T change the graphic. Or at least, BaBs chose not to make it so. You can argue about that fact all you want, but if the current interface doesn't support it, then it doesn't support it.

Honestly, I don't know how Power Customization works. A while ago, I suggested an "invisible weapon", for sets like Energy Melee, from which the color information for the aura could be read. However, Power Customization is obviously on a per Power basis, and each has its own separate color information. This is saved in a power definition file of a sort, and probably broadcast from the server in its own structure, like a costume. So I can't say that the "slot" used to define the weapon uses up a slot that would be used to link to the power customization. But whatever the system, until BaBs is more clear on it, I'm afraid it's just not going to be possible.

Amusingly enough, Broadsword and Katana were the example of what Power Customization was back in Issue 1. If you wanted an alternate model for your weapon, YOU HAD TO CHOOSE A DIFFERENT POWER SET!

Fortunately, Katana was made unique, as you say, and true Power Customization did eventually come out. The potential for the future, whatever the limitations, is still pretty high. I expect we will still see different animations coupled to different graphic choices, and more options overall.

Weapon power sets do not disable power customization, they simply do not have any options besides the default. The sparks, flashes, shockwaves, etc, are entirely customizable, just as they are for other sets. They simply prioritized the non-weapon sets because the weapon sets already had a degree of customizability.

The weapon customization and power customization systems do not interact at all, which is why an invisible weapon would not work for coloring Energy Melee. (Well, maybe the system could look to a costume piece color value to apply to powers, but that would require power customization in the first place, and if your going to do all that work you might as well build the interface and system we have.) Weapons are considered costume pieces, which have no effect on animation or effects. Look at the Build Up and Aim powers in weapons sets. They have a glow around the weapon, but this is based on the legacy weapon and may look off for some custom weapons. Unless there is some other code wonkyness, it was entirely possible to add weapon customization to Spines, but doing so would leave the projectile spines as the default, which would look terrible.

What BaBs said about power customization and Spines was that for powers with multiple effects only one can have custom colors (or possibly all effects could use the same colors). Archery and Trick Arrows can be expected to have wither colorable arrows with stock effects or stock arrows with colorable effects.

I don't believe any redname has said that, and in fact that contradicts what BaBs said.

Note that this is about customizing and tinting the weapon AND the VFX. The problem with Power Customization in the first place was that the color tinting of the VFX was not "connected" to the character, and could not be inherited from him. Assuming that the devs developed a mechanism to do that for weapon models, then if the same mechanism is used for power tinting, you cannot customize both at the same time.

If you can quote a direct post from redname saying that weapon sets can have their graphics customized independently, and that is planned for future development, then I will admit I was wrong. But until then, I'm not going to recommend holding out for features that can't be implemented.

Note that if BaBs had chosen to adjust the Spines and the VFX he could have made them the SAME color. Which means you can theoretically have a green Broadsword and have its VFX be the SAME color, green. But BaBs rejected that for the very reason he gave, the weapon is intended to be the individual and unique portion of the character concept, and he didn't want to limit the VFX because, for instance, a green flash looks gaudy or doesn't support your concept.

Is this point not moot seeing as we're talking about picking animations to go with weapons, not the colors of those animations?

I suppose, but the interface would not support such a change. The way the interface works, animations go with colors. Picking one requires pick of the other. (Unless you choose the Legacy)

I guess you could have an interface where if you choose a Rapier, the Broadsword animations would change to be more lunges and stabs, instead of swings. But my perception is that that's not what we are talking about. What we are talking about is selecting a weapon model, a particular type of sword and color for it, and THEN selecting a separate animation from a list that can all be applied to that sword.

The best you can hope for, if you make some BIG assumptions about what BaBs was describing in his post, is that you can use the Power Customization interface to choose different animations, and the color selectors will be greyed out. And even that, I think, you are reaching for. Unless BaBs comes into this thread and says, "Oh, yeah, I could do that", I think that's wishful thinking.

Not really sure what can be done or not, I'm just working with what I know and using examples from them. I'd say the color picker wouldn't have to be greyed out, it just wouldn't change anything. Example: Alot of self buffs like various Build Ups, Power Boost and Conserve Power will always be the same color even if you shuffle through the entire spectrum. And from what I remember BaB saying about it, those won't change because he wants the colors to represent the buffs they offer (red for dmg, blue for endurance, etc.) not because he can't.

I do not recall BABs ever saying that weapon sets can not have custom effects or animations, merely that they left weapon sets with no power customization options because they already had weapon customization working for them, which at that point was considered good enough.

Custom weapons are a costume effect, and as such they have absolutely no effect on power effects or animations. As BABs has described them being rigged, the weapon is "always there," but has two frames of animation - visible and invisible, and as such is an animated costume piece. That's why weapons in costume files are called with FX scripts, rather than basic costume piece definitions, if I may infer. Basically, when the weapon needs to be shown, it plays its visible frame, and when the weapon needs to disappear, it plays its invisible animation. As such, the weapon costume piece is always attached to your arm, it's just not always visible.

Weapon auras ARE attached to the weapon, which is true for weapons like the Nictus Imperious Sword, but those are part of the weapon in the same way that the dark aura is part of the Burned Wings. Power effects on weapon powers, however, are not tied to the weapon in any way, they are tied to the power's definition. Basically, anything that is not a continuing effect that constantly loops when the weapon is out is a power effect. This includes hit effect sparks, swing arcs, the red "pillar of pain" from Broadsword and the "weapons of glow" when using Build Up with a weapon. Those are all power effects and very much susceptible to powerset customization.

The reason those effects are not customizable is two-fold. First of all, power customization was a mountain of work, so they had to prioritise what to do first. As making a custom variant of most power's effects meant literally making a brand new effect from scratch, that is not insignificant. Secondly, weapon effects are not something that SHOULD be customized, as they basically consist of sparks and swing arcs, which don't really make sense to be neon pink. They might end up being customizable some day, but I'd put them pretty low on the totem pole of importance.

As far as animations go, there is no reason why custom weapons cannot have custom animations. What BABs discussed about Spines was regarding spine redraw which happened between the different types of spines, if you so chose to customize them, and that's a consequence of you actually using different weapons that call different models and as such can't really have the same activation sequence. However, as long as the power's activation sequence calls the same weapon definition, there's no reason why there should be a problem of animation, and as such no reason there should be a problem with custom alternate animations for weapon sets. The real problem is that there isn't much there to put, not a lot of time and opportunity to make brand new animations and the fact that a lot of other sets are much farther ahead on the need for customization, such as pools and Epics, at the very least.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I don't believe that's what BaBs is saying. I don't believe he said, "Well, we could have made the Spines customizable, or we could have made the Toxins customizable. We also could have done both, but I was too lazy. So I just stopped at the Spines and that's good enough, 'cause it's good enough for the weapons."

I believe what he said was, "Well, we could have made the Spines customizable, or we could have made the Toxins customizable, or we could have made Spines and Toxins share the same color. Since it's the Spines that the players usually feel makes them unique, we decided to let you customize that, while the Toxins, which are independent of what kind or appearance of spines you have, we left alone rather than making them match the spines."

He never explicitly said the Spines and Toxins couldn't be each set to a different color, but I believe that's strongly implied. Even the original post didn't talk about making them a different color, actually, he was talking about making them the same. But BaBs' stated his reason for making them different, which means he was limited to making the Toxins remain the same.

That's true, the weapon is shared across all Powers that use the weapon, and so that's why there needs to be one selection and color choice instead of one for each Power. Otherwise you could have the sword change color and shape every time you swung it. And just drawing it is not associated with any Power, and so there needs to be some way to define the selection and color independent of Power.

On the other hand, you assume that the mechanism used to assign selection and color to Powers isn't used to assign selection and color of Weapons. Unless you have inner knowledge of the code you aren't telling me about, you don't know that. You are merely assuming that, because there is only one interface to set the selections, and not one for each Power. Yet, it could easily be a single selection which is then copied to all powers.

Again, I don't think BaBs said anything about redraw, he was talking about his decision to allow the Spines to be customized, but not the Toxin effects. Again, if he could have made the Spines set on the Costume screen, and the Toxins set on the Power Customization screen, then that would solve the problem. But he didn't say that that was an option, merely that they could "do both". If that truly meant he could set them separately, I would think he would have said that that could be a possibility later.

Yeah, but Spines don't use weapon customization last I checked. They use power customization, and each power slot can only take two colours, which is why he said what he said. Spines are a very different beast from practically all other weapons, which is why applying the mechanics behind Spines to, say, Broadsword, is not a safe bet. And, as a matter of fact, there's nothing stopping the toxins from being tintable if only there were enough colours to tint them, but those were used for the Spines, themselves, with the toxins left green because it's thematic and pragmatic at the same time.

That's one thing. For everything else, he did say he was "lazy," which is to say he physically did not have enough time to do everything and had to choose between giving customization to sets that had none or doubling up customization on sets that already had a fair deal. As such, his decision to not mess with weapons is a pretty prudent one.

No, you could very much not have your sword change colour between attacks, because weapon customization is not controlled through power customization. Your sword depends on your powers no more than your cape or your hair does. It's a pre-defined model called through an external effects script. All a power does it call it, it does not define it in any way, shape or form.

Spines are different, because the weapon customization portion of Spines has to match up to the power customization portion of them. In fact, I'm not sure the new Spines are a costume detail like Weapon Customization at all, and rather feel that they actually use the old weapons system where weapon powers did not work in tandem with an invisible costume piece, but rather summoned their own graphics as part of their effects. I don't know how they're set up precisely, but it would explain why you can alter their colours from power to power like you alter the colours of your fire or ice, which isn't possible with weapons.

Either way, I can boil down to a simple notion: "Spines are not weapons." It's not entirely accurate and probably not entirely factologically true, but it's a very good rule of thumb when looking to figure out what weapons can and cannot do. Spines are not a precedent for weapons, they are an exception to the rule.

I am very much not assuming. This was discussed at length both before and after power customization came out. Every time he has discussed this, he has been very explicit that weapons and effects are two entirely different things. Weapons are a costume piece, controlled and defined by the costume system. Effects are completely different, and they are controlled and defined by the powers system. Not only are the two not interchangeable, they are actually only tangentially connected at all. The powers system can make certain requests of the costume system, of which appearing and disappearing of the weapon are two that have been confirmed, but to this day I've seen no confirmation that it can alter costume definitions. Inversely, the costume system can only offer costume pieces to be used for powers, but cannot affect anything that is not a costume piece and that isn't spawned on your character.

I won't hold it against you if you choose to dismiss this, but it has been discussed at length.

No, actually, he could very well not put the spines on the costume screen and the toxins on the powers screen for a simple reason - the spines that stick out of your body are (or at least cold be) a costume piece, but the spines you throw through the air and the spines that stick into your enemies are not a costume piece and as such cannot be controlled by the costume system. At best, you could have metallic spines, but still throw bananas and still have bananas stick into your enemies. That's why Spines have not been customizable until now. In essence, what you see on the power customization screen is all effect, including the spines on the body, I would wager. As such, you can only alter the whole thing and assign two colours to it. Where these colours go is controlled by effects definitions, and he simply chose to put both colours on the spines and neither on the toxins.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Yes, that's right. I think BaB meant that you couldn't color the toxins and the spines. Either the system didn't support it (there isn't 2 sections for choosing colors afterall) or it's a limitation that only had those work-arounds (either color the spines, or color the toxins, or have them share the same color).

However, you're confusing the issue here. While Spines *does* act like a weapon, it is different from the *real* weapon sets. The reason why Spines has 'color customization' for its powers is because the weapon has particle effects that would be associated to the color of the weapon. When you throw the spines, you *have* to have those projectiles be the same color as the spines attached to the body (well, I think BaB said you could have colored the spines and leave the particles alone but he wasn't going to do that).

The difference here is, for real weapon sets, the particles *do not* have to be the same color as the weapon. Since we're not throwing axes and maces at the enemy, those sets only have *1* particle to color (the red pillar aura, sparks and flashes) unlike spines which has 2 (the spines and the toxic splash).

*Smacks Google* Why do you always fail when I actually need you? Piece of junk...


Needless to say, the above is not true. You CAN use a shield with a two handed sword without it looking stupid, and anyone that says otherwise tends to suddenly find themselves looking at over 6 foot of steel up close and personal.

I'd love to see alternate animations. Some of them, in my opinion, do look very weak.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.