Is there any secondary that doesn't cause redraw of the bow?

Also possible with a Corruptor if you're willing to play a villain. After Going Rogue comes out, of course, you could play a corruptor as a hero.

Which will eliminate the need to roll a defender.

>.>

No, I believe the problem was that it didn't work with Shield or something like that. So he had to abandon the idea.

Unfortunately, the problem is not that the Secondary causes redraw, it's that any power causes redraw. The same happens if you use a power from the Power Pool. It's an irritation, but there's really nothing that can be done about it unless you have the SAME weapon in the Secondary. And even then you can't say, "Do this when I have the weapon out, and this when I don't." You have to have the weapon out, even if you don't use it. That's why Weapon Set Taunts make you draw the weapon.

I've suggested a "Weapon" Manipulation Set for Blasters, where if you have a weapon you pull it out and use it to pummel your foes. The other powers can be made to work with the weapon out as well. The problem is that you HAVE to have a weapon, so if you choose a Primary that doesn't have a weapon, you'd have to be given one. Maybe it could give you a choice of different types of weapons, like a sword or a club.

The problem is, I don't believe it would be possible to make the "generic weapon" from the Secondary match up with a "specific weapon" from the Primary. If it was, it would be cool, you could like use the butt of the Assault Rifle, the "blade" of the Archery Bow, or (with GR) the hilt of the Dual Pistols. The problem is that 1) that's three different animations, and you can't have different animations depending on which weapon is out. And 2) most likely you can't have the same power draw either of three different weapons anyway.

I've also thought of using a Martial Arts style animation, which would eliminate 1), since you could kick with a weapon in your hand using the exact same animation. But it gets back to 2) If the engine doesn't support that, you'd have to have three different Power Sets, one that draws the Assault Rifle when you kick, one that draws the Bow, and one that draws the Dual Pistols. Plus a fourth for Martial Artists that don't want to have to draw some weapon.

I'm afraid there's no way around it outside of just creating a Bow Manipulation set. Devices is obviously the counterpart to Assault Rifle, but even with that there is forced redraw. That's so Devices can be used with the other Primaries. The same goes with Assault Rifle and Traps. So really, Archery is unique in that it CAN be set up to avoid the redraw, for Defenders and Corruptors. (Controllers can't use a bow for their Primary, either, although at least Masterminds can)

From what I understand to do this they would have to use the same system that Brawl uses. Basically they brute-force it and it selects a different animation to play based on your stance. The problem is this is still a generic animation that accounts for the fact that you have a weapon but not necessarily which one (the initial version of Ninja Run with an Assault rifle is a good example of the problems that this can run into).

Well, with powerset customization the devs MIGHT be able to make it a set of alternate animations for the powers although the interface would probably be clunky. The main issue is that it would require a lot of animations. Even if we assume that the unarmed uses the regular MA animations and that the Bow and Assault Rifle animations are the same animation just with different sequencing (basically need to select a hand position where neither the bow or AR will clip and use that) it still means 6 new animations per power (not to mention all the sequencing and power customization effort) so I unfortunately doubt we'll see it. Besides, if they did it for one set we'd demand it for all sets .

I think the question is, is the rifle, the bow, and the dual pistols different stances, or is it a "weapon" stance, and the weapon itself is what is different? If that's the case then in theory I think it could work. It is not that you have a specific weapon, but that you HAVE a weapon. In theory, you could eliminate redraw beween Assault Rifle and Trick Arrow IF you could choose the same model for both. (A machinegun/bow hybrid?)

OTOH, there does appear to be subtle difference between the gait and movements of a character with the different weapons. I would guess that single handed weapon and dual weilded weapons are two different stances, just to start. There is enough variation in the idle and run animations for that. And some of the bugs with Ninja Run did seem to suggest that Claws, Assault Rifle, and other weapons were being held in individual stances while that power was active, or at least they NEEDED to be held somewhat differently, even if they weren't. Not knowing how that was resolved, I honestly can't say.

I have considered this possibility. Basically, it would take changing the game engine (or at least adding way more sequences) to have an animation for every single potential stance. Thus you can throw a grenade with your free hand if you're wielding a weapon, juggle one of your two weapons if you're dual weilding, or whatever is needed to make the animation believable. As you said, do for every other power what is done for Brawl. Then redraw becomes simple, it happens ONLY when you go from the idle stance to the stance you take when you draw your weapon. And switching stances would happen a lot less often, too.

I'm trying to get away from that, though. My suggestions are meant to try and fit the "workarounds" for redraw into the existing system. Stay within the idea of "one power, one stance". Perhaps the "weapon" could be invisible, though, so if you don't have one in your Primary, it doesn't seem to effect you, except for the pauses to "redraw". Or, maybe the weapon could be generic, like a staff that you just hold, almost as a costume piece.

Well, in reference to redraw I hope that's not true. I mean, they didn't have to make it so Archery and Trick Arrow used the "same weapon". They could have made it so you redrew every time you switched from an Archery Power to a Trick Arrow power, whether you had the bow out at all. That would be "fair" to the other sets, which do force a redraw when you switch. Particularly when you are switching from, say the assault rifle to the bow.

I think we all recognize on some level that that is inconsistent, yet I haven't heard many protest about it. I think we all prefer not having the redraw when the weapon is the same, rather than trying to eliminate redraw for all the weapons.

You probably mean that if you had multiple animations depending on your stance we'd demand it for all sets, but again, we've already gone through that with Shield. So it is possible. The question is, how long are we willing to wait for it, how many other things are we willing to put on the back burner while the animation guys work on reanimating every single Power in the game, multiple times, and where do we start, do we take it in stages or try and do it all at once. Do we wait the time needed to do it all at once? Can we be that patient, or is it even worth it to wait that long on something that we're dealing with fine right now?

You are correct, I was remembering a post by BABs where he discussed stances and I thought they were the same stance, but now that I re-read the post I realize they aren't. Archery is actually Lefthanded stance which is a subset of the Dual Wield stance so it's closest to Katanas in terms of animation reuse.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...0&postcount=26

The problem with that is that it's non-obvious and hurts non-weapon sets. For people who don't have a weapon the set will animate slower and unless they are the sort of people who spend time discussing this on the forum they won't know why which will make them think that a particular set is clunky and/or buggy.

The difference is that for both Trick Arrow and Shields the situation is an inherent requirement for the powerset. In their case the stance is a requirement for the set and is designed to work as smoothly as possible with other sets that use the same or different stances. Conversely adding a manipulation set that is specifically designed to work smoothly with Archery but doesn't really feature a bow raises the question of why that set and not the others.

Now there are a handful of cases where I think this sort of change would make sense thematically and I have no problems with it there*. But if the devs make a manipulation set that works smoothly with Archery I'd expect to see some logical reason for it other than "we want a set that works well with Archery". Sorry if this sounds a bit odd, I'm having a hard time explaining my feelings on this.

*The example I like to use here is an option for Web Grenade and Smoke Grenade for Devices and Traps to be able to be fired from an Assault Rifle. In this case it makes sense thematically: we can fire Explosive Grenades and Sleep Grenades from our Assault Rifles but for some reasons we have to throw Web and Smoke Grenades by hand? I doubt we'll ever see it but that is the sort of change I'd like to see, it makes sense thematically and only applies to those powers in the set where that is the case.

But it doesn't solve the redraw issue unless they make three new sets of animations for all of the attacks.

The other issue is how to do it? The most popular suggestions seem to be either an Energy Manipulation clone or Devices with kicking instead of explosives but personally I don't care for either.

Honestly, animations and powers are two of my least knowledgeable areas.

But my thought was that whatever was done to get MA working with Shields might be sufficient to get it working with the 3 blaster weapons (that's counting the DP set that's on its way).

As for adapting the powers, I think most if not all of the MA set could be used as is. There's an immob power, a stun, a build up, a kb, a pbaoe ... I'm not sure what else players would want.

I'll admit I'm not as knowledgeable as some others regarding animations but I don't think that would work. For shields they basically put in another "stance" which was compatible with existing stances. So they'd have to do the same thing here and unless they put in a toggle you'd actually drop out of the stance after using one of the pwoers meaning it would cause more redraw problems than not doing it.

It's not a case of what players want, it's a case of what the devs want. The purpose of manipulation sets is poorly defined by them (probably deliberately) but they are not the same as melee sets. Besides the changes to the powers themselves (primarily higher damage and longer recharge) the structure of the sets is very different. Even the most melee heavy set (Energy Manipulation) only has 5 melee attacks of which two are basically pure controls with minimal damage. Manipulation sets are filled out with other powers. Primarily control powers, self buffs and the occasional damage aura. Electricity Manipulation has the most damaging melee attacks but even it only has 4 of them.

Yeah, that's the problem. While thematically and conceptually it works, technically it's not possible. You MUST have a single stance for a power, you can't have "do this if you have a weapon, do this if you don't." Either you have a weapon, which requires you draw it if you don't have it out when you activate the power, or you don't. As long as that limitation exists in the game engine, any resolution to the problem is merely a kludge.

Actually, in this case they did solve the problem. If I'm understanding correctly, they did add a whole new animation set for two difference stances. One with the shield out, one without. The problem is not that this isn't possible, it's the amount of time it would take to do it. If if they implemented a new set that used two different animations, one in the weapon stance and one not, then the players would ask, "Well, why can't I do that with Devices? Why can't I do that with Fire?"

The amount of time it would take to revamp every single Blaster Secondary would make adding the feature not worth it, no matter how useful it would be in one set.

Which is why I actually suggested adding a weapon that would have to be redrawn if the Primary DIDN'T have a weapon. Although it would be irritating to constantly redraw the Secondary weapon, the players wouldn't have a precedent to say, "remove the redraw from my favorite Set". Besides, Trick Arrow/Energy for Defenders, or Fire/Trick Arrow for Controllers forces a redraw when you use the Trick Arrows, and there is very little complaint about that. Because using the bow as a launching platform for the debuffs makes conceptual sense.

I'm not sure you were here for the original Beta, but originally the Blaster Secondary was Melee. The only difference between Blaster Melee and Tanker and Scrapper Melee was that the first power was replaced with the first power we have now, a ranged Immobilize power. Otherwise, the Set had all of the applicable melee attacks, including the powerful ones like Total Focus, Greater Fire Sword, and so on.

Energy Melee is still the most like this, probably because the stun associated with the attacks was a useful form of mitigation. With the other Secondaries, however, it was quickly determined that Ranged/Melee was unworkable. With no defense and no control powers for mitigation, moving into melee was suicide. So no one ever took the Blaster Secondary Powers. The devs finally changed the Secondary from "Melee" to "Support", and added the control powers and damage auras that the Sets have now, taking them from Control and Defense sets.

Devices was the last to arrive, and it replaced an earlier set that was based on Medieval Weapons, an early concept that combined all the Weapon types into one. You would draw a sword, mace, axe or whatever with each individual Power and swing it. The redraw, as you might guess, was horrendous. My memory fails me at this point, but I believe in early testing they had replaced Medieval Weapons with Broadsword, and the Blaster version used a Crossbow for the first Power, then the sword for all the rest as with Scrappers.

At any rate, that was thrown out entirely, and Devices was its replacement. Which is why it is so different from the other Manipulation Sets. They designed it from the ground up around what they felt the "new" Blaster needed; some control powers, some stealth, maybe a little defense, and a couple of really powerful explosive (pun intended) melee range powers. Whether the "mine" concept was considered inherent to that, or just they thought it fit a Devices idea more than a PBAoE I don't know, but to my mind the mines have always been the Devices' version of the melee attacks. That's how I use them anyway, to protect myself in case something gets too close.

That's really why the Manipulation Sets are so different, because the devs really didn't have a unified concept when they came up with them. They still need work, and the devs have said as much. It hasn't ever come to anything, but there you go. I think the Dominator Assault sets have been more unified, they are obviously Ranged/Melee while the Primary is Control. That means by inference that Blasters should probably be Ranged with Melee/Control as Secondary. It's just not nearly as uniform in implementation.

And at this point I've gone way off topic.

This isn't true. The one stance per power is used to reduce the required animations and sequencing rather than a limit of the system. Brawl is the best example of this. It plays a different animation depending on what stance you are in. The best example of this is to get a character with a stance that uses both hands (Archery, Dual Blades, Claws or Shield and a Weapon). If you have his weapons out then brawl will be a kick animation but if you clear the stance so he puts away his weapons and then initiate combat with brawl he will punch instead.

This is pretty much what I was suggesting a few posts ago. I don't mind if a manipulation set has a weapon that makes sense for the set and I don't mind if that weapon happens to use a stance that eliminates redraw for a blaster primary. But, I don't really want a set that uses a stance (with or without a weapon) purely so that it doesn't cause redraw. It's also important to note that the three Blaster Weapon sets (Dual Pistols, Assault Rifle and Archery) all have a different stance so making a set that is redraw-less with all three is impossible.

Yes, but Brawl has to be specifically coded, that way, and the devs have stated that Brawl breaks all the rules, to the point where it is the most complex attack in the game.

Obviously it is POSSIBLE, because as I said, Shield is able to do it. Whether or not that is due to a kludge, though, because Sheild is able to take advantage of the ability to use a limited number of stances, or what, I do not know. But from what I understand this is a limitation of the ENGINE. The devs can code around it, but they can't get rid of the restriction.

I suppose BaBs could clarify if I am wrong. It would be a lot simpler to just recode Devices so it can be used in multiple stances, instead of them all. But as you say, if that requires four animations per power, one for each of four different stances, instead of just two, well, that's a lot more work, and impossible if the maximum number of stances for one power is only two or three. (And remember that flying uses up a stance as well)

Yep. What I would be interested to know is how this interacts with power customization. We know that it is possible for the devs to make alternate animations that you can choose to use for given powers. The question is, can the devs make these alternate animations use different stances? Obviously this doesn't solve the problem of needing multiple animations but it would solve the one stance per power issue in specific cases where that was warranted without affecting balance for those who don't.

Well, I meant MA seems to have a lot of what everyone would want. I'm sure you guys know the sets better than I do, but it seems like a great fit to me. I'll spell it out.

Martial Arts provides a fair bit of the mitigation a manipulation set has.

Ice, Fire, Mental, Device, and Elec manipulation sets all start off with an immob that does decent damage. MA has a power that does that: Crippling Axe Kick.

Energy Manipulation starts off with a power that does kb for mitigation. Mental has TK Thrust. MA has Crane Kick, which does kb.

Energy Manipulation has a Stun power, while MA has Cobra Strike.

All of the manipulation sets have a build up power. MA has Focus Chi.

Each of the sets has a PBAoE attack. MA has Dragon's Tail, which also does kb as mitigation.

Each manipulation set (not counting Devices) has one or two basic, no frills attacks. MA has Storm Kick and Thunder Kick.

Eagle's Claw could be kept as the nuke, resembling the use of the single target tier 9 in Energy.

The only MA power we have left over is Warrior's Challenge.

Warrior's Challenge could be replaced with something else. Thematically, I could suggest Physical Perfection, from the scrapper Body Mastery epic. It would compare to the various +end or +rec powers in the manipulation sets in terms of its effects on the player, with a small heal component in place of an attack. (Physical Perfection is also an auto power, so if a click power is preferred, you could make it like the scrapper power Energize.)

Alternatively, you could pick something more controller-ish from the Ninjitsu set, such as Caltrops, Smoke Flash, or Blinding Powder. I'd think Caltrops would be the best choice from this list (though the power is overused). Smoke Flash or Blinding Powder would be more interesting, provided they have long enough recharge times to stay out of the regular attack chain.

Smoke Flash or Blinding Powder could even be used as the tier 9, bumping Eagle's Claw down to tier 8.

Naturally, the damage, recharge, endurance, and so on would have to be adjusted to bring the powers in line with other blaster secondaries, but it seems like an exceptionally good fit to me.