How about this Idea? Tier One Blasts...


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Hello Defenders,

**Disclaimer**
Yes, its another "Change my Defender thread", but be gentle, this is just something to discuss peacefully
** **

Many of us feel that something should be done to help defenders out a bit.
More damage would be nice to help take down Bosses faster (I can read a paper in the time it takes),
and some kind of help pre-stamina/pre SO for the endurance crunch we feel.
And my personal desire to add some melee feel to the AT.

So here are a couple ideas I had;

What if we boosted the Tier One blast damage to be about 30% more damage.
This would help tremendously pre-stamina and pre-SO levels, but would not add to AoE strength of the AT, and would not push overall DPS too much and be in danger of upsetting Blasters/Corruptors. As it stands now, this blast is;
1) Required, so you cannot avoid it, even if you wanted to
2) Very low damage, to the point that I wonder if it would make more sense to just leave it out of an attack chain and add more recharge into the Tier 2 blast.

My second Idea is one that could be implemented by itself or even combined with the first;

What if our Tier One blast had a kind of dual effect. If your target was at range ( farther than 8 feet away) it would act as it does now and animate/damage as a blast. Then, if your target was in melee Range, it would animate as a melee version of the attack and do essentially double damage. (For reference Power Bolt --> Energy Punch for Energy Blast set). These numbers could be tweaked, but this addition of a melee option would be really helpful to defenders, since melee range is unavoidable and it would open up some interesting attack options. For unusual sets like Archery and Assault rifle, they would not get a melee animation necessarily, but they could get extra damage at melee range to be fair.

Ok, flame-retardant is on. Anyone think these could help out Defenders solo and pre-stamina ? Too much extra damage ?


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

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Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
Too much extra damage?
What on earth do you mean? Nothing wrong with extra damage!


 

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Problems with it.

- It means adding in animations and I'm not sure BaB would be found of it.

- Damage scaling happens 1-20 and helps defenders, so pre-Stamina damage isn't an issue.

- If Defenders have a damage issue, it's after 20.

- Getting to 20 is easy enough to where any under performance is quickly bypassed.


 

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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Problems with it.

- It means adding in animations and I'm not sure BaB would be found of it.

- Damage scaling happens 1-20 and helps defenders, so pre-Stamina damage isn't an issue.

- If Defenders have a damage issue, it's after 20.

- Getting to 20 is easy enough to where any under performance is quickly bypassed.

Hello Amy,

Yeah the second idea is more of a "wishful thinking".
I would love some more melee options that arent found in pools.

As far as damage, I was thinking of how this could help after level 20 as well, which is why I thought the teir one blast and more ST damage could help in later levels (especially on Bosses).

Pre-stamina though, I do feel there is a major endurance issue, which a little more damage could smooth over until then. I realize all ATs suffer from the endurance pinch at these levels, but having played all the ATs to this point, I think Defenders are the worst off.
Tankers and Trollers are next, but they both have the option of "letting their natural recovery catch up" in a battle (most times, not always). Scraps, Blasters and Defenders (in general) have to go "full-bore" on attacks until the fight is over.

I just want the pre-20s to not "suck so bad".


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

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I look at the melee "hole" as being an inherent part of the balance of the AT. (And Corruptors as well) Defenders have blasts and can to some extent defend themselves, but they don't have melee attacks.

And really, Defenders do less damage in melee (0.55 base mod instead of 0.65) so technically if your blast doubled as a melee attack it would have to do it on the 0.55 scale. So instead of doing double damage you would only do about 1.7x damage.

Additionally, Blasters do more damage with their melee attacks, but they have greater recharge and End cost them as well. You could make the Defender attack cost greater End for the double damage, but there really wouldn't be any way to make it recharge slower.

No, I'd leave the Power Pool for those Defenders that want a melee attack. I like your first idea, though. Although maybe they should Scourge, like Corruptors do.


 

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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
I look at the melee "hole" as being an inherent part of the balance of the AT. (And Corruptors as well) Defenders have blasts and can to some extent defend themselves, but they don't have melee attacks.

And really, Defenders do less damage in melee (0.55 base mod instead of 0.65) so technically if your blast doubled as a melee attack it would have to do it on the 0.55 scale. So instead of doing double damage you would only do about 1.7x damage.

Additionally, Blasters do more damage with their melee attacks, but they have greater recharge and End cost them as well. You could make the Defender attack cost greater End for the double damage, but there really wouldn't be any way to make it recharge slower.

No, I'd leave the Power Pool for those Defenders that want a melee attack. I like your first idea, though. Although maybe they should Scourge, like Corruptors do.
Hello Jade,

Yeah the first idea is certainly an easier fix. Bump the required attack up a little to make it more respectable. Everyone has to take it anyway, and with more damage it helps our endurance use at low level and helps take down hard targets better at higher level.

I also dont really see blasters getting upset if our tier one attack did 80% (or so) of their equivalent, since all our other attacks and AoE would still be lower damage.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

[the tier 1 blast is...]

Quote:
1) Required, so you cannot avoid it, even if you wanted to
2) Very low damage, to the point that I wonder if it would make more sense to just leave it out of an attack chain and add more recharge into the Tier 2 blast.
Same DPS as the Tier 2 blast, for most sets. Damage Scale 1.0 in 1 second instead of 1.6 in 1.67 seconds.


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
Same DPS as the Tier 2 blast, for most sets. Damage Scale 1.0 in 1 second instead of 1.6 in 1.67 seconds.
Well, there are several sets that use different numbers while maintaining the relationship. Also, for those curious there are three sets where the T2 has better DPA than the T1: Archery, Dark Blast and Psychic Blast.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Well, there are several sets that use different numbers while maintaining the relationship. Also, for those curious there are three sets where the T2 has better DPA than the T1: Archery, Dark Blast and Psychic Blast.
Yeah the whole idea is a bit tricky, I would like to see a single target attack chain worked up for each defender blast set (something like Bill_Z_Bubba's scrapper chains) so that this change could be shown numerically. I know what my "gut" tells me would happen, but the numbers could be completely out of whack (doubtful).

To Fulmens, I was not sure what you are hinting at ? I would be interested in hearing more on your DPS comment.

One of my first thoughts was to bump the Tier one 20-30% and the Tier 2 10-15%, but I personally dont see a problem with the DPA on the Tier 2 attacks, they feel fine. The teir 1 blasts, I would skip completely (if I could).


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Changing between melee and ranged blasts is too gimmicky.

I'd like to see the blasts get an END discount first to see how much it helps the Defender.


"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
To Fulmens, I was not sure what you are hinting at ? I would be interested in hearing more on your DPS comment.
I believe the point he's trying to make is that if you assume a situation with a perfect attack chain (i.e. no breaks between powers) then DPS is based on damage/activation rather than damage/recharge and from that point of view the T1 and T2 powers are equally effective in 6 out of 9 sets.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
Pre-stamina though, I do feel there is a major endurance issue, which a little more damage could smooth over until then. I realize all ATs suffer from the endurance pinch at these levels, but having played all the ATs to this point, I think Defenders are the worst off.
Tankers and Trollers are next, but they both have the option of "letting their natural recovery catch up" in a battle (most times, not always). Scraps, Blasters and Defenders (in general) have to go "full-bore" on attacks until the fight is over.

I just want the pre-20s to not "suck so bad".
End issues are partly based on what sets the ATs are playing. Take for instance a Kin/rad versus a Fire/kin. IMO, defenders are rather end friendly even on the solo side of things because they get a virtual free pass on teams. I vastly slot for end redux in my attacks and various powers early, so I really don't feel much of a end crunch unless I am using a well known end heavy set. I generally don't take any of the toggle powers before Stamina unless it's Sonic, or FF and only Sonic is really end heavy.


 

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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
End issues are partly based on what sets the ATs are playing. Take for instance a Kin/rad versus a Fire/kin. IMO, defenders are rather end friendly even on the solo side of things because they get a virtual free pass on teams. I vastly slot for end redux in my attacks and various powers early, so I really don't feel much of a end crunch unless I am using a well known end heavy set. I generally don't take any of the toggle powers before Stamina unless it's Sonic, or FF and only Sonic is really end heavy.
I agree, there are vast differences. Perhaps just my typical choices have been poor performers pre-stamina.

Funny you should mention Kinetics, I have made 3 alts in the last month with Kinetics (2 defenders and 1 brand new controller). After Transference, their End issues goes away, but even pre-stamina Siphon Power contributes a great deal to reducing the endurance needs of leveling. This could even be why the idea occured to me to boost the tier 1 attack.

With toggles, I 100% agree with waiting on them. I usually take only 1 prior to stamina and only 2 IF its something like CJ or Hover. After level 21 is when I start looking at stacking more toggles on a character.

So what do you typically slot in your blasts while leveling Amy ?
My plan is 2 TO ACC until after 10, then between 12 and 20 I usually have 1 DO ACC and 3 DO DMG. Between level 23-34 I fill in any remaining slots 4-6 total and start getting IO sets into them.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

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The only time I've dispensed with my Tier 1 attack at higher levels was with my Emp/Energy duo - once they were perma-AB'd they were using Blast-Torrent-Burst-Explosive as an attack chain.
Every other Energy Blast Defender ended up with Bolt-Blast-Bolt-Burst with AoEs thrown in when they're up.

So I'd dispute that your first solution only helps low level Defenders. Luckily, I think its not just low level Defenders that need help.

I think it introduces too many extra issues though. How do Archery and Rad Blast work, with their faster smaller Tier 1's? If you up Neutrino Bolt's damage, you shift the procs vs Damage slotting balance that many builds are based on.
Does it unbalance Psychic Blast, which has four single target attacks?

In the end it would be a lot easier and lower risk to reduce all Defender (and Tanker) attacks to 80% of their current endurance cost - still leaving them with lower DPE than Blasters and Scrappers but better than what they have now.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMike2000 View Post
The only time I've dispensed with my Tier 1 attack at higher levels was with my Emp/Energy duo - once they were perma-AB'd they were using Blast-Torrent-Burst-Explosive as an attack chain.
Every other Energy Blast Defender ended up with Bolt-Blast-Bolt-Burst with AoEs thrown in when they're up.

So I'd dispute that your first solution only helps low level Defenders. Luckily, I think its not just low level Defenders that need help.

I think it introduces too many extra issues though. How do Archery and Rad Blast work, with their faster smaller Tier 1's? If you up Neutrino Bolt's damage, you shift the procs vs Damage slotting balance that many builds are based on.
Does it unbalance Psychic Blast, which has four single target attacks?

In the end it would be a lot easier and lower risk to reduce all Defender (and Tanker) attacks to 80% of their current endurance cost - still leaving them with lower DPE than Blasters and Scrappers but better than what they have now.
Hello Dr.Mike,

I would be very happy if they addressed the endurance problem directly and lowered endurance costs by 20%. As you may know, I have suggested things like this in the past.

This particular idea is more a What IF ...to save endurance we upped the single target DPS chain noticeably ( DPA and DPE slightly). It seemed to be an elegant way to help defenders at low level, fighting bosses or hard targets at higher level and would not boost AoE damage or step on Blaster/Corruptor toes.

That being said, when its all said and done, I can deal with the amount of time it takes to bring down a hard target (I am reasonably patient). I just find the road to 22 unfairly difficult for defenders when compared to other ATs. More endurance efficiency would fix it IMHO.

P.S. You mentioned some sets that might become a bit askew with something like this. Another thought I had was that you could swap the Tier 1 and Tier 2 attacks and let the defender have the option of taking the lower DPA attack or being able to skip it (iirc Broadsword has something like this in its arrangement. The reason I did not suggest it, was that, for the most part Defenders would STILL have to take this smaller blast to build a reasonable attack chain, so without some kind of improvement, we would have gained no benefit for alot of coding.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

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Quote:
I just find the road to 22 unfairly difficult for defenders when compared to other ATs.
EVERYONE complains about end usage in the teens, with the exception of Regen scrappers and Willpower tanks. (Go ahead, find eryq2's Dark Armor thread. I dare ya.) Based on my Scrappers, Tanks, Defenders and Blasters I don't see Defenders being particularly singled out.


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
So what do you typically slot in your blasts while leveling Amy ?
My plan is 2 TO ACC until after 10, then between 12 and 20 I usually have 1 DO ACC and 3 DO DMG. Between level 23-34 I fill in any remaining slots 4-6 total and start getting IO sets into them.
I don't do TOs. I level too fast and they just don't seem worth it really. 2 acc and 2 end for attacks with DOs. The amount of acc and end redux can be played around with, ie /rad can abuse 1 acc due to the -def it gets. I could see doing 1 end reduc and 1 damage, or maybe even 1 recharge, but I always slot for end. The only time I don't is on a Kin with Stamina post SOs.

I can see Siphon Power getting an end reduc in it early due to it's slightly high end cost, but I have never done it personally.

"Hey, I have end issues before getting Stamina."

"Do you slot for end reductions during that time?"

"Well, no."

End usage is the highest in attacks. Blasters and brutes are infamous for their end usage due to their aggressive nature.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
I don't do TOs. I level too fast and they just don't seem worth it really. 2 acc and 2 end for attacks with DOs. The amount of acc and end redux can be played around with, ie /rad can abuse 1 acc due to the -def it gets. I could see doing 1 end reduc and 1 damage, or maybe even 1 recharge, but I always slot for end. The only time I don't is on a Kin with Stamina post SOs.

I can see Siphon Power getting an end reduc in it early due to it's slightly high end cost, but I have never done it personally.

"Hey, I have end issues before getting Stamina."

"Do you slot for end reductions during that time?"

"Well, no."

End usage is the highest in attacks. Blasters and brutes are infamous for their end usage due to their aggressive nature.
Hehe, Thanks for the reply Amy

Something that I will definitely have to expirement with.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF