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The two sets have some similarities, but have significant differences. A lot depends on how you want to play the character. Both sets go well with Radiation. |
Originally Posted by Invincible_Ninja
I want to know which one has the stronger holds. My secondary is going to be rad regardless of which primary i pick. If you guys could give me advice on which one has the stronger holds and/or mixes best with rad.
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My Earth/Rad guide (see the link in my sig) will tell you almost all you might want to know about the Earth/Rad combo . . . I still need to go back and add some IO information into the guide, but it has tons of information that I compiled from the great folks on these boards. Earth/Rad is an awesome ranged AoE controller with tons of Defense Debuff to make it easy to hit the foes. The Rad secondary gives it plenty of flexibility to provide great team support. For the most part, however, you want to stay out of melee, and don't expect to do much damage leveling up. Eventually, once you get Rocky and some APP attacks, you can solo, but not quickly. Rocky had some changes made and is now one of the best pets in the game. The main complaint about Earth Control (some people just didn't like the graphics) has been somewhat resolved with power customization. The Crystal and Lava options are pretty good.
Ice/Rad has less "hard" control than Earth/Rad. If you want more "holds," then Earth/Rad is the choice. Ice/Rad can be made either as a ranged or melee controller, and its main focus is Slows with -Recharge. I would suggest going Melee since the melee controls make it uniquely different than Earth. Other than Fire/Rad, Ice/Rad is the build that can make best use of Rad's Choking Cloud. Ice/Rad can combine Arctic Air and Choking Cloud for a double-toggle PB AoE control aura, where you will want to follow the melee teammates and reduce the damage they take to almost nothing. It will mature late -- you will need both Arctic Air and Choking Cloud fully slotted for EndRdx for both, and Confuse for AA and Hold for CC. But once you are fully slotted and enhanced, you will be able to walk in and in a few seconds, most foes in the area will be held, confused or slowly running. This will also be a low damage build, but you can beef up the damage with a lot of procs and other tricks. You will also want to team for the most part.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Well, i want a hold based controller and i don't solo if i have a choice between it and teaming. So with that would you suggest Earth/Rad?
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Yes. Take a look at my guide for strategies and build suggestions. You get two of the best hold powers in the game (Volcanic Gasses and EM Pulse), plus a psuedo-hold in Stalagmites+Stone Cages (stun+Immob=Hold). Also, you get a knockdown area (Earthquake) and a Targetted AoE Slow with a huge Defense Debuff that has a lot of strategic uses. (Very few people recognize the value of Quicksand.) As an Earth/Rad, you will be an AoE Blaster's best friend.|
Originally Posted by Invincible_Ninja
Well, i want a hold based controller and i don't solo if i have a choice between it and teaming. So with that would you suggest Earth/Rad?
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However, if you like to play more up front and like to run in front with the melee guys, then Ice/Rad might fit your playstyle more.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Well i like the holds and i would prefer to stay back so Earth/rad it is.
One last question: an in-game friend of mine made a Ice/Rad and IOed him at lvl 50 for approximately 150 mil which is fairly cheap. He is able to do everything you mentioned a Ice/Rad is capable of doing above. Is it possible to perfect an Earth/Rad at aorund the same price?
I would go with Earth. The pet likes to use seismic smash which also adds to the hold stacking - his attacks taunt as well for pesudo tanking, hes a heck of a lot tougher than jack frost.
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Depending on your definition of "perfect", yes it should be rather easy.
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Originally Posted by Invincible_Ninja
. Is it possible to perfect an Earth/Rad at aorund the same price?
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Alright, thank you.
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Yes.| Ice Control or Earth Control? |
They're both great sets, I suggest you play them both as some point.
@Mazzo Grave
Webmaster Grave, Virtueverse!
Energy/Energy Blaster Guide
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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Frankly, you can do everything I mentioned using SOs. You can spend as much or as little as you want. Ice/Rad is very heavy on Endurance, and optimal slotting for Arctic Air and Choking Cloud could be somewhat expensive. But Earth/Rad doesn't have a problem with endurance most of the time. Accelerate Metabolism gives you a part-time Recovery boost -- with a lot of Recharge, you can get "perma-AM" but it certainly is not needed.|
Originally Posted by Invincible_Ninja
One last question: an in-game friend of mine made a Ice/Rad and IOed him at lvl 50 for approximately 150 mil which is fairly cheap. He is able to do everything you mentioned a Ice/Rad is capable of doing above. Is it possible to perfect an Earth/Rad at aorund the same price?
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If you want, you can load up and Earth/Rad with damage procs, but it certainly isn't necessary unless you want to solo a bunch. You can load up with Recharge, which is nice but not needed. You have three ranged AoE controls (Stalagmites+Stone Cages, Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses), plus a great PB AoE Hold (EM Pulse) as back-up -- so you should have one available pretty much all the time. The one bonus that would help the most is Ranged Defense, since Earth/Rad's AoE controls sometimes draw some aggro. However, I haven't built mine that way . . . I have the Stone APP, and the Defense shield seems to be enough when combined with my heal power.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Either Ice or Earth works well. With Earth you'll find a fairly standard Controller with perhaps some slight extra emphasis on close action (because of the stacking between Choking Cloud and Volcanic Gasses.)
Ice/Rad is something else altogether. To me, it's the most extreme version of a melee-based Controller. I know someone said you can play this combo at range, but before you decide to do that, consider that Ice/Rad brings four player-based AoE powers to play with it:
- Arctic Air (pulsing slow/fear/confuse)
- Glacier (instant hold, 2 minute-ish recharge fully slotted)
- Choking Cloud (pulsing hold)
- EM Pulse (instant hold, 2 minute-ish recharge fully slotted)
In other words, an Ice/Rad loaded down with all 4 of these powers is a walking cloud of mezzes. It can heal itself, boost its Recharge rate, and lockdown just about anything. It's main weakness is getting mezzed, so the Mind APP's anti-mezz power is highly tempting.
In the end, I'd say Earth/Rad plays like a traditional Controller and Ice/Rad plays like something very weird. Ice's damage is pretty poor, and the pet dies a lot, but anything that gets near you is instantly out of the fight.
Special Note: I want to add that some people interpret "melee based" Control to mean literally standing so close to enemies that they can hit you with melee powers. This is generally not a good idea. Ice/Rad's Arctic Air power has a reach of 25 ft (the exact same radius as your heal), so its perfect for standing just behind melee folks and catching the things they are fighting at the edges.
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If you want maximum holds I'd suggest Earth/Trick Arrow. You get 2 AoE holds and 2 single target holds. Plus you get quite a lot of defense and resistance debuffing.
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Originally Posted by Invincible_Ninja
Well, i want a hold based controller and i don't solo if i have a choice between it and teaming. So with that would you suggest Earth/Rad?
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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If you're talking about other sets, I find my Earth/Storm a lot of fun. You are able to lock down two or three separate spawns very easily with the wide variety of AoE effects, plus you get decent damage from Lightning Storm.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
If you want maximum holds I'd suggest Earth/Trick Arrow. You get 2 AoE holds and 2 single target holds. Plus you get quite a lot of defense and resistance debuffing.
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The one HUGE advantage /Rad has is Lingering Radiation. The -regen debuff on that power is great for taking down GMs and AVs. Neither /Storm nor /Trick Arrow have anything that compares.
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Personally, I'm not a big fan of using Choking Cloud on an Earth/Rad. There is no other reason an Earth/Rad needs to get that close, since the three AoE controls are all ranged. The endurance costs and slotting demands for Choking Cloud is too high for the limited benefit of stacking with Volcanic Gasses. Choking Cloud really needs to be continually combined with another control (like Hot Feet or Arctic Air) to be effective. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Either Ice or Earth works well. With Earth you'll find a fairly standard Controller with perhaps some slight extra emphasis on close action (because of the stacking between Choking Cloud and Volcanic Gasses.)
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And, in my opnion, Earth/Rad really doesn't need Choking Cloud to be fully effective. Maybe that's because I prefer to play my Earth/Rad from range, and you may prefer to be more in melee.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Well, Ice's pet also uses a hold a lot, so I'd consider that a wash; but Earth's pet is probably physically tougher.|
Originally Posted by Star_Seer
I would go with Earth. The pet likes to use seismic smash which also adds to the hold stacking - his attacks taunt as well for pesudo tanking, hes a heck of a lot tougher than jack frost.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Personally, I'm not a big fan of using Choking Cloud on an Earth/Rad. There is no other reason an Earth/Rad needs to get that close, since the three AoE controls are all ranged. The endurance costs and slotting demands for Choking Cloud is too high for the limited benefit of stacking with Volcanic Gasses. Choking Cloud really needs to be continually combined with another control (like Hot Feet or Arctic Air) to be effective.
And, in my opnion, Earth/Rad really doesn't need Choking Cloud to be fully effective. Maybe that's because I prefer to play my Earth/Rad from range, and you may prefer to be more in melee. |
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
If you want maximum holds I'd suggest Earth/Trick Arrow. You get 2 AoE holds and 2 single target holds. Plus you get quite a lot of defense and resistance debuffing.
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Earth/TA is the ultimate control king, with more ranged AoE control powers than any other combo. But Earth/Rad has almost as many controls, and has a lot more flexibility for team support and handling a range of situations.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
IMHO I would play to the extremes: either make an Ice/Rad with Choking Cloud and Arctic Air and wade in, or an Earth/Rad and skip choking cloud entirely. Or make both
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LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I'm nitpicking but I'd argue Mind/TA is a competitor with Earth/TA for the most number of holds, depending on how you classify Confusion abilities. I tend to classify them as "reasons the mob is not shooting at me," and this elevates Mind Control in this category. Earth/TA is much better at locking enemies down in a specific location, and Mind/TA is much better at opening a fight on your own terms. I also think that the single target Confusion available to Mind (and Illusion) blows any other Controller sets' single target mezz abilities out of the water, in terms of both duration and net effect.
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There is also EM Pulse, which is PBAoE. An Earth/Rad standing inside Volcanic Gasses with Choking Cloud up and an EM Pulse for backup is a fierce thing.
| Personally, I'm not a big fan of using Choking Cloud on an Earth/Rad. There is no other reason an Earth/Rad needs to get that close, since the three AoE controls are all ranged. |
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I have played Mind (mine's a Mind/FF) up enough to have a decent idea of its AoE control. While I acknowledge Mind has great AoE control, I don't think it is as good as Earth. Both sets have AoE sleeps, but Earth controllers usually skip theirs because it isn't needed (and it is PB AoE, and draws aggro). No question that Volcanic Gasses is much better than Total Dom. So the question is whether the options of Total Dom, Terrify and Mass Confusion are better than Stalagmites+Stone Cages, Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses, plus Rocky and his ability to pull aggro. Factor in Earth's Defense Debuff to make it more reliable to hit those large groups, and I think Earth is superior as an AoE controller. Of course, Mind far outshines Earth for Single target control and damage.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm nitpicking but I'd argue Mind/TA is a competitor with Earth/TA for the most number of holds, depending on how you classify Confusion abilities. I tend to classify them as "reasons the mob is not shooting at me," and this elevates Mind Control in this category. Earth/TA is much better at locking enemies down in a specific location, and Mind/TA is much better at opening a fight on your own terms. I also think that the single target Confusion available to Mind (and Illusion) blows any other Controller sets' single target mezz abilities out of the water, in terms of both duration and net effect.
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| There is also EM Pulse, which is PBAoE. An Earth/Rad standing inside Volcanic Gasses with Choking Cloud up and an EM Pulse for backup is a fierce thing. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
And don't forget EMPulse has a radius so large you can still use it from range and be effective so even though its a pbaoe, you don't have to be in melee to use it.
And regarding confusion as a hold, I'd say only halfway there. They don't attack you which is great for mitigation purposes, but they can still move which hurts your "set up a clump for your friends to aoe all over". That is where IMHO that plant trumps mind because you can seed then aoe immob for that "hold" effect.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Various replies.
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Sure, but that's why I said Earth/Rad might have a little extra emphasis on being near melee, and not a total focus on it. It's not a disadvantage to stack Volcanic Gasses with Choking Cloud. Since this is a discussion about which AT is the best at holds (not staying at range) it seems relevant.| Maybe, but I can accomplish the same thing with Volcanic Gasses, Stone Cages and RI, all from range, and use less endurance. I keep EM Pulse as a "panic button" power, and sometimes pull it out against large groups of Robots but otherwise use it rarely. My other AoE controls work almost all the time. |
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| And don't forget EMPulse has a radius so large you can still use it from range and be effective so even though its a pbaoe, you don't have to be in melee to use it. |
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| And regarding confusion as a hold, I'd say only halfway there. They don't attack you which is great for mitigation purposes, but they can still move which hurts your "set up a clump for your friends to aoe all over". That is where IMHO that plant trumps mind because you can seed then aoe immob for that "hold" effect. |
Yeah I was only talking about why I wouldn't call Mass Confuse a "hold", not trying to compare Mind v. Plant.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Gotcha. And agree, mostly.
| Yeah I was only talking about why I wouldn't call Mass Confuse a "hold", not trying to compare Mind v. Plant. |
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I don't know that I agree completely with that especially against melee favoring mobs like warriors, BP, Red caps, Romans etc. Proper use of an AoE confuse against these mob types makes the spawn self herding and can actually clump them together.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
And don't forget EMPulse has a radius so large you can still use it from range and be effective so even though its a pbaoe, you don't have to be in melee to use it.
And regarding confusion as a hold, I'd say only halfway there. They don't attack you which is great for mitigation purposes, but they can still move which hurts your "set up a clump for your friends to aoe all over". That is where IMHO that plant trumps mind because you can seed then aoe immob for that "hold" effect. |
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| Plant is also great. However, I think people give way too much credit to Plant over Mind on the basis of Seeds of Confusion vs Mass Confusion. Both are great powers, but in the context of the sets end up about equal. Seeds is great but Plant lacks a follow up single target Confuse to catch anything you might have missed. Mass Confuse is great but on a longer timer. Where Plant does pull ahead is on reliable Containment, but then Mind can smack it back with stealth mezzes and the ability to open fights on its own terms. In the end, a toss up, but I can see how you could call Plant better at "holds" if not necessarily "control." |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
And an aoe immob keeps them clumped.......that's all I'm saying.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I want to know which one has the stronger holds. My secondary is going to be rad regardless of which primary i pick. If you guys could give me advice on which one has the stronger holds and/or mixes best with rad.