Change Axe's knockBack to knockDown


Ad Astra

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Seems like it happens a lot at random, and some foes which are knocked up at even con get knocked back when they're one or two levels below you. I just tried out my axe Tank and dinged while street sweeping, and suddenly the Lost I was fighting started getting randomly knocked back.
Working as intended. When fighting foes beneath your level, your powers are stronger. This includes the magnitude of knockback effects. As such, that 0.67 KB can go above 0.75 KB Mag, which I believe is the threshold for becoming KB versus KD.


Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I agree with you on the no lowering knockback issue and I tend to agree with the speed slider as well, but why are you opposed to the ability to block/remove buffs? There are people who for whatever reason can't handle particular buffs (particularly the Thermal shields and Speed Boost) normally because their computer is older. Now these people will normally ask not to be buffed when playing on a team with someone who has those powers but people are forgetful and when they get into a routine may well end up buffing them accidentally. In that situation why shouldn't they have the ability to opt out of the buff?

Additionally there are people who enjoy griefing events (particularly costume contests) but casting costume obscuring buffs on participants.

We already have an option to prompt before being teleported and both resurrection and Mystic Fortune have an automatic prompt. Why not add a "prompt for all ally buffs" option (exclude abilities that are purely healing). Yes it would be frustrating for a player to have to click on every single buff screen that gets cast but for players where certain buffs make their game unplayable I think it would be a godsend.
My answer makes me sound like a jerk - which I am to a certain extent - but I try not to be sometimes

The biggest issue I have with /remove or /no buffs is what happens if someone removes Fortitude or Adrenaline boost? Those are long charging buffs and I wouldn't get the power back if I cast it (Just like the rez doesn't recharge instantly if someone doesn't take it). For instant cast powers, I can live with it but Id want to know who is /removing or blocking buffs before I team with them. (Here comes the part where I look like a jerk)

I play a lot of buffing characters, I buff first, then I will attack when I can. I try to be always up-to-date on my buff orders to make sure the team operates at peak efficiency. If someone has a power blocked, lets say SB. I would cast it, not see the animation, cast it again because I might have mis targetted, not see the animation, Then I have to type to see if they have power blocked. My whole flow is ruined. (Again, remember, big jerk here). So I would rather not team with people who would use such a feature.


I would totally support a "No-non-team-buffs-in-areas-where-raids-aren't-held" meaning that if I were in AP or Peregrine Island and I didn't want to receive non-team buffs (Drive by SBs/sheild/etc) or I was in a costume contest and I didn't want to be griefed, I could turn that flag on. But when you're on a team, I feel you need to take the bad, with the good, and personal preferences tags shouldn't interfere with the rest of the team.


 

Posted

Well, there are two obvious solutions to your concerns. The first is to have the animation play regardless of whether the person is blocking/prompting buffs or not. The second is to not have a means of blocking/prompting buffs but instead allow a simple means of canceling a buff after it's been cast (for example in WoW you can end any buff early by right clicking on it).

I see where you're coming from with not wanting to waste long recharge buffs on people who are going to block/cancel them but in my experience those aren't the ones that cause problems, no one in their right mind would deliberately refuse fortitude or AB. However, for some buffs (particularly speed boost and the thermal shields) the dislike of the buffs by some people is not a personal opinion but a matter of practicalities. I've been on a plenty of teams where people would ask not to be speed boosted since it actively hindered their ability to play, generally because their computer was older and couldn't handle the extra speed very well. In most of those cases the buffer in question simply didn't SB them and all was well but in some cases he did buff them which invariably led to arguments. In most cases it pretty much came down to "sorry, I was trying to re-SB the 6 other people and mis-clicked" although in a few cases the kin would take an attitude of "you'll take your SB and you'll like it" which if I was the team leader would be grounds for a kick since as far as I'm concerned that amounts to griefing.

Now in both these situations having the ability to block/prompt buffs would solve the problem entirely. The buffee does not get the negative performance associated with problematic buffs and the buffer can just go ahead and buff the entire team without needing to remember which teammates do not what buffs.

EDIT: Just thinking about how I'd do it, rather than have a prompt (which I already find annoying for rezzes and mystic fortune) what I'd like is to be able to cancel an ongoing buff in two different ways. First have the ability to right click on the icon with "cancel buff" as a new option on the context menu and secondly add a cancel buff slash command. The former means that people have a way to cancel unexpected buffs during non-combat situations (i.e. costume contests) while people who want to avoid specific buffs all the time for performance reasons can setup a bind/macro to allow them to cancel them all with a single click during combat.

For example if you find that the fire shields and speed boost impact yuor performance you could do:
/bind f "cancelbuff Speed Boost$$cancelbuff Fire Shield$$cancelbuff Plasma Shield"

That way if they get cast on you you're a single button press away from no longer having them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Why not add a "prompt for all ally buffs" option (exclude abilities that are purely healing). Yes it would be frustrating for a player to have to click on every single buff screen that gets cast but for players where certain buffs make their game unplayable I think it would be a godsend.
See the answer to this issue would be the speed / jump slider or a option to block jump and or speed buffs and a option to hide buff animations. The only reason some people don't want ice shields as an example, is because it makes them lag. Especially those with extremely out of date 10 year old computers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx View Post
NO!!!

That is a horrible idea that has been rehashed eighteen million times, and only 3 people are ever in favor of it.
Yeah.... Its a horrible idea if you like to join and grief teams with bonfire and powers that scatter foes everywhere. Knockback honestly doesn't bother me until it gets to that point.

Why should I have to tell someone "You can't use that power because it knocks everything back"? You think I'm not going to use my energy torrent, or Explosive blast because it does extreme knockback? Or do you think I'm not going to use solar flare on my human pb because the team doesn't like it? Hell no, I'm going to quit the team because those are some of the more powerful AOEs for those particular power sets.

I was on a team playing as my merc/paindom mastermind and 6 people actually quit the team because the occasional knockback from my mercs grenade launcher. I couldn't believe it... I mean seriously, I'm a mastermind and I use pets, what do you want me to do about my pets?

This idea is win win for everyone. You don't get kicked, you get to use the powers you enjoy, and everyone else is happy. Just make enemies stay knocked down as long as they would be from knockback and the survivability from knockback remains the unchanged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg View Post
One (Swoop) has knockUP. None have knockBACK unless slotted for it or fighting vulnerable foes
I've seen more than a few battle axe tankers fling enemies around like rag dolls and they were not vulnerable to knockback nor did the tank have knockback ios or knockback boosting powers and the enemies were not green, blue or grey so it had nothing to do with low level enemies. It DOES happen.


Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post
I've seen more than a few battle axe tankers fling enemies around like rag dolls and they were not vulnerable to knockback nor did the tank have knockback ios or knockback boosting powers and the enemies were not green, blue or grey so it had nothing to do with low level enemies. It DOES happen.
You saw their slotting screens ?

Gjallerhorn my own shield/ax tank hasn't caused knockback except against vulnerable foes, or in rare cases when a foe gets hit by 2 knockdown powers (nearly) simultaneously.

Ax has no inherent knockback powers.



@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

 

Posted

Catwhoorg is right -- axe has no inherent knockback powers. Carefully-monitored Axe dos not actually fling around anything at all except lower-level foes and most clockworks. I've just leveled up an Axer and been whaling away with the axe on all kinds of stuff and I can tell you he's right.

It's also right that the OP was poorly thought-out and researched.

Almost every time I see a knockback complaint that I know to be wrong ("Remove the knockback from fire/ice/whatever!" "Why does Ice Slick suddenly do knockback?" "Why did they nerf Freezing Rain?") it turns out to be a clockwork-based issue. Even when the poster is cagey about remembering (or admitting) what he was fighting, (although to be fair that was not the case in this thread) it ultimately seems to have been a Clockwork issue more often than not.

I think Clockwork should have some kind of a damned warning -- not dialogue, not a label, but maybe a complete cut-scene movie that stops play and explains that the darned things take extra knockback and PLEASE DON'T RUN TO THE FORUMS AND START A THREAD ABOUT IT. We face this complaint regularly, and usually the person who reflexively posts without researching the issue winds up angry and insults someone, which only makes the whole affair even more frustrating. Over and over we have this thread or its analogs...almost on a regular schedule...like, well, clockwork.


If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post

Yeah.... Its a horrible idea if you like to join and grief teams with bonfire and powers that scatter foes everywhere. Knockback honestly doesn't bother me until it gets to that point.
Wow - you seriously see that as "griefing"? using your powers in spite of them doing KB on a team? Seriously?

Quote:
Why should I have to tell someone "You can't use that power because it knocks everything back"? You think I'm not going to use my energy torrent, or Explosive blast because it does extreme knockback? Or do you think I'm not going to use solar flare on my human pb because the team doesn't like it? Hell no, I'm going to quit the team because those are some of the more powerful AOEs for those particular power sets.
As you probably should if the team is that bothered by them. If they don't understand that your damage comes with a side of KB, and really want you to quit it, then you need to quit them.

Quote:
I was on a team playing as my merc/paindom mastermind and 6 people actually quit the team because the occasional knockback from my mercs grenade launcher. I couldn't believe it... I mean seriously, I'm a mastermind and I use pets, what do you want me to do about my pets?
I truly don't doubt your experience, but has this happened more than the one time?

Quote:
This idea is win win for everyone. You don't get kicked, you get to use the powers you enjoy, and everyone else is happy. Just make enemies stay knocked down as long as they would be from knockback and the survivability from knockback remains the unchanged.
It is not "win for everyone". You have now changed how *MY* powers work and I have to relearn them on the fly. I use KB for positioning, not just to stop the baddies from hitting me. Your idea erases that use. So I "lose".


Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Astra View Post
Wow - you seriously see that as "griefing"? using your powers in spite of them doing KB on a team? Seriously?



As you probably should if the team is that bothered by them. If they don't understand that your damage comes with a side of KB, and really want you to quit it, then you need to quit them.



I truly don't doubt your experience, but has this happened more than the one time?



It is not "win for everyone". You have now changed how *MY* powers work and I have to relearn them on the fly. I use KB for positioning, not just to stop the baddies from hitting me. Your idea erases that use. So I "lose".
1 If you're dropping bonfire in the middle of a bunch of melee people usually scrappers or tankers just to scatter stuff everywhere. Yes thats griefing and if they ask you to stop and you continue to do so yes thats griefing.

2 Yes this has happened more than once.

3 What's to learn? If stuff is knocked down and you're using it for positioning backpeddle. And this is again optional via the options menu or the team leaders choice. Its no different then quitting a team or being kicked from it that didn't want you to use knockback before. Now you can use as many of your knockback powers without pissing anyone off.


Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post
Yeah.... Its a horrible idea if you like to join and grief teams with bonfire and powers that scatter foes everywhere. Knockback honestly doesn't bother me until it gets to that point.
It's also a horrible idea to turn off my KB when I'm trying to use Wormhole to position a new mob into the currently thinning one because it's up and it'll speed the team up. Or when I'm using Force Bolt/Force Bubble to knock foes back into my teammate's Freezing Rain or Tar Patch, or even just into a tanker's taunt aura.

Quote:
Why should I have to tell someone "You can't use that power because it knocks everything back"? You think I'm not going to use my energy torrent, or Explosive blast because it does extreme knockback? Or do you think I'm not going to use solar flare on my human pb because the team doesn't like it? Hell no, I'm going to quit the team because those are some of the more powerful AOEs for those particular power sets.
And I'll quit any team that turns that slider on, because I am not relearning my powersets just because some people can't handle KB.

Quote:
I was on a team playing as my merc/paindom mastermind and 6 people actually quit the team because the occasional knockback from my mercs grenade launcher. I couldn't believe it... I mean seriously, I'm a mastermind and I use pets, what do you want me to do about my pets?
Congratulations, you found out that people are flipping morons.

Quote:
This idea is win win for everyone. You don't get kicked, you get to use the powers you enjoy, and everyone else is happy. Just make enemies stay knocked down as long as they would be from knockback and the survivability from knockback remains the unchanged.
No it's not. It's lose for anyone that has a modicum of ability to use KB.



Quote:
I've seen more than a few battle axe tankers fling enemies around like rag dolls and they were not vulnerable to knockback nor did the tank have knockback ios or knockback boosting powers and the enemies were not green, blue or grey so it had nothing to do with low level enemies. It DOES happen.
Yes, if they slot for KB.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx View Post
It's also a horrible idea to turn off my KB when I'm trying to use Wormhole to position a new mob into the currently thinning one because it's up and it'll speed the team up. Or when I'm using Force Bolt/Force Bubble to knock foes back into my teammate's Freezing Rain or Tar Patch, or even just into a tanker's taunt aura.

And I'll quit any team that turns that slider on, because I am not relearning my powersets just because some people can't handle KB.

Congratulations, you found out that people are flipping morons.

No it's not. It's lose for anyone that has a modicum of ability to use KB.





Yes, if they slot for KB.
Force bubble is repel with a chance to do knockback. You're not going to be running in melee range to use this power anyway. Its to protect you and ranged people.

Wormhole is a foe AOE teleport power which drops them from the sky with a chance for knockback. Not sure why you brought that power into a knockback discussion because you really don't need the knockback in it. Because when it hits stuff and drops them its already done its job.

You didn't read my post. Or you would see that I mentioned that he wasn't slotted for knockback and didn't have any abilities that increase knockback mag or sets and the enemies were not clockwork or other enemies vulnerable to low knockback mag. Thus is does happen thanks.


Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post
Wormhole is a foe AOE teleport power which drops them from the sky with a chance for knockback. Not sure why you brought that power into a knockback discussion because you really don't need the knockback in it. Because when it hits stuff and drops them its already done its job.
Wrong, it's 100% KB. And if you've spent over 2 years playing that character knowing how to place them so the KB puts them where you want them, it's a hard habit to break when your team leader suddenly turns off KB on you.

Quote:
You didn't read my post. Or you would see that I mentioned that he wasn't slotted for knockback and didn't have any abilities that increase knockback mag or sets and the enemies were not clockwork or other enemies vulnerable to low knockback mag. Thus is does happen thanks.
I did, and you're wrong. Here's the list of effects on every Battle Axe power. (Remember, KB < 1 is KD. Might be .75 for the threshold, but even then, at Mag 1 they'll move a foot at most.)

Beheader - 40% chance of Mag 0.67 KB
Chop - 50% chance of Mag 0.67 KB
Gash - 50% chance of Mag 0.67 KB
Swoop - 70% chance of Mag 7.789 Knockup (which sometimes lands them a bit further away than you like, but that's because of ragdoll, more knockup makes them land more erratically).
Whirling Axe - 50% chance of Mag 0.67 KB[/url]
Cleave - 80% chance of Mag 0.67 KB
Pendulum - 50% chance of Mag 0.67 KB

So, which one has Knockback > mag 1 again?



Also, no response to the fact that the "turn all KB into KD" option makes Force Bolt (and Power Push) utterly worthless?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Astra View Post
Wow - you seriously see that as "griefing"? using your powers in spite of them doing KB on a team? Seriously?



As you probably should if the team is that bothered by them. If they don't understand that your damage comes with a side of KB, and really want you to quit it, then you need to quit them.



I truly don't doubt your experience, but has this happened more than the one time?



It is not "win for everyone". You have now changed how *MY* powers work and I have to relearn them on the fly. I use KB for positioning, not just to stop the baddies from hitting me. Your idea erases that use. So I "lose".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post
1 If you're dropping bonfire in the middle of a bunch of melee people usually scrappers or tankers just to scatter stuff everywhere. Yes thats griefing and if they ask you to stop and you continue to do so yes thats griefing.

2 Yes this has happened more than once.

3 What's to learn? If stuff is knocked down and you're using it for positioning backpeddle. And this is again optional via the options menu or the team leaders choice. Its no different then quitting a team or being kicked from it that didn't want you to use knockback before. Now you can use as many of your knockback powers without pissing anyone off.
1. OK - in your example of "griefing". One time is NOT griefing unless the player in question says something in chat like "Nyah! Nyah! How didja like that, meleers?"

A second time *might* be griefing if the player was asked to avoid doing that, but it could also be a player who needs more than one spawn to adapt a play style.

The only griefing I will agree with in your example is if there is a pattern (consisting of multiple examples, not just one or two) of doing it. In which case, the leader should rightly kick that offending player.

2. I have to say that in five years of playing an Energy/Electric Blaster, I have never been kicked from a team, nor do I know of anyone who quit a team because of KB. I guess we have just had radically different teaming experiences, so I really don't know what else to say except that you have been on crappy teams.

3. You seem really bothered by Bonfire - you continually use it as your exemple of a KB power. That particular power appears in only 1 powerset - Fire Control, shared by Controllers & Dominators.

What about all the other powersets - most of Energy Blast (Blasters, Defenders, Corruptors), Energy Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation (often overlooked in these discussions), Gravity Control, Kinetics? Some of those sets have at least one power that is *completely* KB, as Fahx mentioned.

Your answer to our questions is we don't really have to learn anything new, "just backpeddle". I rarely "backpeddle", perhaps because I have pushed the foe away and down on his back.

Your other response is that we can always "quit team". How have you added anything to the discussion? If the team leader has a problem with KB now, he/she can boot the offender. If I get too many complaints about KB from the rest of the team, I can "quit team". The only one you have made "happy" with your "solution" is the team leader who has been given control over how I play my character, against my wishes, even if only for a few moments it takes me to "quit team".

You also haven't answered my only slightly sarcastic wish to have a leash on the Scrapper who splits off from the team and brings "friends" back when he returns to us or the Emp who for some reason applies his/her buffs in a manner I do not agree with, or any number of other players whose playstyle does not agree with mine - I mean it would be only fair, right?


Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."