[QUOTE=Ryeata;2447575]
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His point is, Tanks don't get SS as a primary, only as a secondary. You're using Brute nomenclature listing the attack set as the first (primary) set.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
If I saw an SS/DA tank I would "o.O" mainly because that's an impossible combination (it would actually be DA/SS).
nothing is ever an impossible combo  just hard one's lol. Point in fact: my buddy has an Arch/ Fire blaster that at first i was like o.0 uh. . . why then he got her to 50 and slotted her out i was like o.0 ok wtf how'd you do that |
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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my mistake, DA/SS tank. yes.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
If I saw an SS/DA tank I would "o.O" mainly because that's an impossible combination (it would actually be DA/SS).
I've actually got a DA/EM stunlock Tanker and, honestly, it's not that great. He works incredibly well when fighting hoards of enemies but, when trying to tank a single target, he falls kind of flat. Of course, he isn't IO'd at all, and I predict he would turn into a living engine of destruction if I ever chose to do so. |
His point is, Tanks don't get SS as a primary, only as a secondary. You're using Brute nomenclature listing the attack set as the first (primary) set.[/QUOTE]
Details Details :P!!!!!
Oi stupid Quote thing buggin out on me >_<
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I really have no issue using the PvP IO in "test the limit" builds.|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
30 melee, 45 range, 40 aoe
Something like this maybe? I know, I know... using that PvP IO |
As for that build, I like it but the idea was doing it in a build with Hasten.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
wierd...
did I post a different build?
Hasten should be there on a 25 seconds down time though.
Can't open it up at the moment but I might have posted a different build if you don't see it there. And I think I paired it with BS, but that shouldn't matter.
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Yep, Broad Sword/Dark Armor with Hasten. It'll be a little more than 25 seconds down time since some of the recharge is with Hasten itself off. I could calculate it if I weren't to lazy to bring up a spreadsheet and plug in two numbers. (Edit: Looks like a little over 31 seconds down time. Not that I'm complaining, since I don't have Hasten at all.)
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
wierd...
did I post a different build? Hasten should be there on a 25 seconds down time though. Can't open it up at the moment but I might have posted a different build if you don't see it there. And I think I paired it with BS, but that shouldn't matter. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
ok so it is the right build
Ohhh yes, I always forget about that hasten turned on and off thing.
Question though... That extra 6 seconds on DR really makes that much of a difference? I could see having hasten on a BS, but on a katana... I don't think its worthed.
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Recharge on Dark Regeneration is huge, at least for on-paper survivability (edit: more specifically, in my spreadsheet). In practice, I would guess that Dark Regeneration already recharges so quickly that your main vulnerability is random damage spikes, not lack of healing. So in practice, I don't think the extra recharge from Hasten would make nearly as much difference as it does on paper. That's how I'm betting my own influence, anyway. Doesn't mean I'm right.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
ok so it is the right build
Ohhh yes, I always forget about that hasten turned on and off thing. Question though... That extra 6 seconds on DR really makes that much of a difference? I could see having hasten on a BS, but on a katana... I don't think its worthed. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I just finished (this morning!) a softcapped Katana/Dark build for my scrapper, Maya the Eternal. I ended up at 52% Melee (w/ two Divine stacked), 45% Ranged, and 44% AoE.
I sacrificed all my global +Rech to get there, so there were definitely some tradeoffs. My build was based on ClawsandEffect's BS/DA one found here ( http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=189427 ).
The build is very strong vs. some foes, but also pretty weak vs. others. For example, Rikti are really easy, but high difficulty Arachnos chew me up pretty good. In general, I'd avoid opponents with high Defense, Defense Debuffs, and -Recharge. I have no problems with some AV's (teamed, not solo), but Scirocco and Lord Recluse stomped me pretty badly during an STF.
I've got a whole bunch of 50's, and despite this being my most expensive level 50 melee build, I wouldn't say it's my strongest. It's partially due to a need for adjustments in my playstyle. I'm playing her a bit like a high defense toon currently, but it's really much more like a normal Dark Armor toon with a very nice extra layer of survivability. Unfortunately, I can't play it like I did pre-defcap as my overall accuracy and recharge are so far down from previous levels.
I'll have to come to a new comfortable technique at some point, but initial impression are that my Claws/SR scrapper, DM/SD scrapper, Night Widow, and SS/SR brute all deal more damage and have better and more consistent overall survivability vs. foes like Romans, Arachnos, and Nemesis, but the Katana/DA is more survivable vs. Rikti (in particular), Carnies, Malta, Crey. The damage is coming across a little lackluster compared to my other toons, though.
Well i wanted to do a katana/da at one time now I decided I rather go katana/elec just so i do not have to rely -kb's and I can stick a cool IO in grounded default slot and open opem slot's else where in a build. But that is me
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Yeah, mine kinda gets stomped by Arachnos. Is the 25% defense debuff from the Tarantula Mistresses auto hit? It sure feels that way. I go from epic to kitty cat in one hit, and I can't be burning purples at that kind of rate through a whole mission.|
Originally Posted by Bobitron
I just finished (this morning!) a softcapped Katana/Dark build for my scrapper, Maya the Eternal. I ended up at 52% Melee (w/ two Divine stacked), 45% Ranged, and 44% AoE.
I sacrificed all my global +Rech to get there, so there were definitely some tradeoffs. My build was based on ClawsandEffect's BS/DA one found here ( http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=189427 ). The build is very strong vs. some foes, but also pretty weak vs. others. For example, Rikti are really easy, but high difficulty Arachnos chew me up pretty good. In general, I'd avoid opponents with high Defense, Defense Debuffs, and -Recharge. I have no problems with some AV's (teamed, not solo), but Scirocco and Lord Recluse stomped me pretty badly during an STF. I've got a whole bunch of 50's, and despite this being my most expensive level 50 melee build, I wouldn't say it's my strongest. It's partially due to a need for adjustments in my playstyle. I'm playing her a bit like a high defense toon currently, but it's really much more like a normal Dark Armor toon with a very nice extra layer of survivability. Unfortunately, I can't play it like I did pre-defcap as my overall accuracy and recharge are so far down from previous levels. I'll have to come to a new comfortable technique at some point, but initial impression are that my Claws/SR scrapper, DM/SD scrapper, Night Widow, and SS/SR brute all deal more damage and have better and more consistent overall survivability vs. foes like Romans, Arachnos, and Nemesis, but the Katana/DA is more survivable vs. Rikti (in particular), Carnies, Malta, Crey. The damage is coming across a little lackluster compared to my other toons, though. |
I don't have the problem with accuracy on mine. I fit Tactics into the build, and between it and the Kismet, I'm normally 95% against +4s, and the defense debuff from the swords takes care of anything worse fairly quickly. I also didn't sacrifice all global recharge, but at 40%, it's pretty low. I haven't really had a problem with -recharge, probably because of that and because it's hard for them to hit me with recharge debuffs.
I do think he's very strong, but definitely has a serious weakness to defense debuffs, which makes him not the toon of choice for many enemy groups. Sergei (Dark Melee/Super Reflexes) feels weaker on +4x8 groups without defense debuffs, but his performance doesn't drop in the toilet against debuffers, so he feels more solid in general, more of a jump into any group any time any where sort of toon.
But I know I need practice, which might make a lot of difference. I need to get better at timing Dark Regeneration. I need to better map out what I can and can't do, and how best to do what I can do. Heck, I need to fight Cimerorans AT ALL. Don't think I've even been there with Alexei yet. And I haven't started in on AVs.
I feel like I'm part of a tiny little club of soft-capped Sword/Darks, and that we're starting to map out what is good and bad about them. That's fun for me, even if we end up concluding that something else is better.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Sorry the initial attempt to import didn't actually take, leaving the current Kat/Dark build I was working on without Hasten.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
wierd...
did I post a different build? Hasten should be there on a 25 seconds down time though. Can't open it up at the moment but I might have posted a different build if you don't see it there. And I think I paired it with BS, but that shouldn't matter. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
I'm terrified to do an ITF with her. It'll be a bloodbath with all those Defense debuffs. I ran the Rikti scrapper challenge thingy within the range of a pylon vs 54's without breaking a sweat. Then I got squashed on a radio mission vs +1/x4 Arachnos.
I suspect Alexei's build is much higher end than mine. My build is about as cheap as it can get for a Def capped DA, particularly if someone with more patience did the shopping.
Definitely fun to try something so different, isn't it? I'm still waiting for a moment other than those Rikti 54's that really impresses me, but I'm sure when it happens I'll be pretty darn happy.
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Romans probably won't be an issue since a Kat/Dark with 30 melee can double stack DA to compensate. It's the ranged Def debuffs that are the problem.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, mine kinda gets stomped by Arachnos. Is the 25% defense debuff from the Tarantula Mistresses auto hit? It sure feels that way. I go from epic to kitty cat in one hit, and I can't be burning purples at that kind of rate through a whole mission.
I don't have the problem with accuracy on mine. I fit Tactics into the build, and between it and the Kismet, I'm normally 95% against +4s, and the defense debuff from the swords takes care of anything worse fairly quickly. I also didn't sacrifice all global recharge, but at 40%, it's pretty low. I haven't really had a problem with -recharge, probably because of that and because it's hard for them to hit me with recharge debuffs. I do think he's very strong, but definitely has a serious weakness to defense debuffs, which makes him not the toon of choice for many enemy groups. Sergei (Dark Melee/Super Reflexes) feels weaker on +4x8 groups without defense debuffs, but his performance doesn't drop in the toilet against debuffers, so he feels more solid in general, more of a jump into any group any time any where sort of toon. But I know I need practice, which might make a lot of difference. I need to get better at timing Dark Regeneration. I need to better map out what I can and can't do, and how best to do what I can do. Heck, I need to fight Cimerorans AT ALL. Don't think I've even been there with Alexei yet. And I haven't started in on AVs. I feel like I'm part of a tiny little club of soft-capped Sword/Darks, and that we're starting to map out what is good and bad about them. That's fun for me, even if we end up concluding that something else is better. |
Arrrgghh. Nuons. They just suck.
One big issue with /Dark is that is has no Health boost. The /Dark resists tend to be no more effective than Dull Pain but take up more power slots and IO slots.
My initial design wasn't about totally capping Defense. It was about a high enough defense so that Cloak of Fear slotted out for ToHit Debuff met in the middle. I got away from that because it doesn't work on ranged and AVs tend to resist the ToHit Debuff. Even so, it might be worth going back to if dropping that last bit of defense nets the character lots of +Recharge and maybe decent +Health or Resist.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I had the same impressions, so looked at it closely. It does a normal tohit check, but it has something around a 20s recharge, and there's often more than one tarentula mistress. Seeing how crippling it is to lose 25% defense at once, it's no wonder it feels like this debuff hits way too often. | Yeah, mine kinda gets stomped by Arachnos. Is the 25% defense debuff from the Tarantula Mistresses auto hit? It sure feels that way. I go from epic to kitty cat in one hit, and I can't be burning purples at that kind of rate through a whole mission. |
It might check only for psi defense, though... My own experience was on a DB/ELA while leveling, popping purple insps which is +def to all, so I didn't pay attention to that.
Edit : nevermind, I checked the power's name on CoH wiki and typed it in brackets in game to see the stats, and it does a normal check against ranged and psi defense. Accuracy is normal too.
It sure feels like it hits more consistently! I was in the middle of a group with three of them this morning and it was hard to keep my defense above 10%, never mind 45%. Thanks, Nih.
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Only if double stacking DA was that easy. Don't forget those Romans get stupid crazy defense when bunched up. My Katana/WP got plastered a couple of times at the wall with cap melee on 1 DA and 190%+ accuracy on it. But I got to say though, they were +3 and +4 to me as I was 47 ... |
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Romans probably won't be an issue since a Kat/Dark with 30 melee can double stack DA to compensate. It's the ranged Def debuffs that are the problem.
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Just hit 50 on him and he is waiting for a new suit. +1 / +2 Romans shouldn't be that big of a problem.
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Love ya, Des! 
It's hardly a comprehensive test, but I ran a single mission against Cimerorans last night at +2x4 (reminder for people skimming: on a soft-capped Katana/Dark). I was careful to attack Surgeons first and get my defense up with Divine Avalanche ASAP, and spammed it if my defense started dropping. I was also doing my normal inspiration use, which is to say keeping a few slots free and using what dropped as it dropped, and only dipping briefly into the rest where required before replenishing it. I was not otherwise careful, and gleefully chased runners into the next group.
I had only one case of cascading defense failure. It was the only spawn in which I had to use Dark Regeneration. By the time they had me back down after that, everything was dead or running, so they weren't able to capitalize on my -50% defense for long. I can see how their own defense might be a problem if I crank up the level, and how cranking up the numbers will make cascading defense failure much more common. That's something I plan to try today to see how bad it can get.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
It doesn't help that when it hits, the Tarantula Mistress debuff doesn't just screw your defense. It mangles your toHit something fierce, which means not only do you start dying faster, you take a serious hit on outbound DPS. You also of course start having a way harder time hitting with Parry/DA, which is a secondary hit on defense. And on the mitigation side, you're also going to miss more with Dark Regen.
It's a pretty ugly power.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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TL;DR - HOLY **** IT'S SPARTA! GET IN THE CAR!|
Originally Posted by Werner
I can see how their own defense might be a problem if I crank up the level, and how cranking up the numbers will make cascading defense failure much more common. That's something I plan to try today to see how bad it can get.
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OK, I figured why not dive right in, so I cranked it up to +4x8 with bosses and took a timed mission.
Went to a contact to buy a bunch of purples and yellows. Not all purples and yellows, but maybe half of my inspirations, which is more purples and yellows than I normally carry. Took a medium purple and spawn dove the first group. Got the Surgeon and several others before cascading defense failure, then ran ran ran. I managed to get away. Went back, got a couple more, cascading defense failure, ran. Went back and managed to take out the rest of the group. Tried pulling on the second group, but pulled the entire group. Again, hit and run between cascading defense failures, and managed to take out the group. Went back to spawn diving, and hit and ran the third group into submission. But after three groups, I was pretty much out of purples and yellows. Spawn dove my fourth group raw, and strangely managed to last for a bit before cascading defense failure. I think I took out a couple. Ran.
Oh, and when cascading defense failure happens here, it happens FAST. You're at full health and over 45% defense, then you see the red negative base defense of that first debuff, and then another hits, and in a second or two you register that it's starting to go south, by then, you're at half health and all of your positional defenses are red, and you're running like mad. You're still taking damage, though. Burn a precious green or chance it? You're almost to that corner. Decide quickly!
Back to the fourth spawn, no purples or yellows. I managed to take out a minion, and then a wandering group plowed into me, and I ran immediately rather than wait to see what happens when you have a double spawn of +4x8 Cimerorans. Even running immediately, I think I was below half health before I got away. I really wanted to finish that spawn, because they were standing on top of a glowie. Snuck past the wanderers (thank you Cloak of Darkness, and though probably not needed, Celerity +stealth). There were no minions left, so I targeted a lieutenant, figuring I'd just try to take him out and run. Almost immediate cascading defense failure, but I got a case of scrapperlock "I'm taking you with me!" and didn't run. I... uh... didn't take him with me. So that was my first death. Ran back from the hospital, snuck past the wanderers, targeted the same lieutenant (now almost dead) and charged in. Managed to take out the remaining lieutenants and was making good progress on a boss when the wanderers showed up again to spoil the party. I ran before they saw me, but they certainly saw me as I ran by, Death Shroud blazing. They gave chase. I lost them, snuck past them yet again, and found that they'd left their Surgeon busily healing the boss I'd almost taken out, who was now almost healed. Went back in, took out the Surgeon and then the two bosses. Clear! Clicked on the glowie. One down, three to go. Ugh.
Well, there wasn't enough time left to do it the hard way, so I went ninja and slealthed the remaining glowies, none of the rest of which were solidly in the middle of a group. One was no problem. The other two got javelins flying my way while I waited for the timer, but in each case, my soft-capped ranged defense let me get the glowie, and then I just ran.
Mission complete. But now that the time pressure was off, I wanted to see if I could clear it. Uh, that would be NO. In the very next group I got cascading defense failure, had trouble disengaging due to the tight quarters, and died while I was running. Since the mission was complete, no going back in to finish the job.
CONCLUSION: PAINFUL BUT POSSIBLE. Buy a lot of purples and yellows and a handful of greens. The greens are only to keep you alive when you run. While I didn't try it, Dark Regeneration will probably get you killed. If you're taking enough damage for it to be worthwhile, you're going to be dead in a few seconds anyway unless you run NOW. Stealth the mission objectives, probably leaving a last safe glowie for when the timer runs out, allowing you to return to the mission from the hospital, or from an inspiration run.
Me, I've seen enough. Alexei won't be running Cimeroran missions on +4x8.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I assume you didn't bother with Cloak of Fear or Obsidian Gloom?|
Originally Posted by Werner
Me, I've seen enough. Alexei won't be running Cimeroran missions on +4x8.
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If you have a free respec and can copy to test, I'd be interested to see if Obsidian Gloom slotted with lots of Acc basically solves the problem. (For some reason I think they are resistant to fear but I can't remember why I think that. I think I tried them on my Dark when I hit 40...)
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I could have told you that from the very beginning. Considering those enemies would have, at the very minimum, a 9% chance to hit you, each point of -defense functionally counts as 1.4 points of -defense thanks to acc mods, and every defense debuff is going to be hitting you 44% harder, it's rather obvious you're going to cascade both fast and hard. 5% -def from a +4 Cimeroran minion is going to be the equivalent of getting hit by 10.08% -def from an even level Cimeroran minion. Without DDR, you're pretty much paste, especially since one out of every 11 is going to hit you even when you're softcapped, and, since the alpha strike of a +4/x8 spawn with bosses is going to be comprised of roughly 14 attacks. The chance of a horrible defense debuff cascade not happening on the alpha strike is less than 33%, which doesn't bode well for the rest of the fight.
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Originally Posted by Werner
TL;DR - HOLY **** IT'S SPARTA! GET IN THE CAR!
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I left my Cloak of Fear on. I have it calculated at +4 enemies being feared 70% of the time. But that's without all the defense buffs they have, and assuming I stand there long enough for it to fire. It probably did almost nothing.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I assume you didn't bother with Cloak of Fear or Obsidian Gloom?
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Even if they aren't resistant to fear, I suspect Oppressive Gloom would be slightly better. It ticks every two seconds instead of every five, so there's a better chance of it preventing some of the alpha debuffs, and of course it's more likely to stay up, other than when they wander out of range. But I hate the wandering, partially because if I target a minion in a big crowd, they can easily wander out of range, leaving me stranded looking for another target while my nice Divine Avalanche stack drops.
So yeah, I don't think either would be very effective.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
I could have told you that from the very beginning.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Something like this maybe?
I know, I know... using that PvP IO