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Originally Posted by Sailboat
In this post Windenergy21says that Tornado is not autohit, but has a high accuracy.
I don't mean to imply he/she/you (if you're reading) doesn't know the power, but is that true? I'm unable to interpret City of Data's page on Tornado; there are several different aspects, each described cryptically as "auto" and "accuracy 1" or "accuracy 1.3." I would be stunned if 'Nado has a 1.3 accuracy, as it's consistently hit MOG'd Paragon protectors, AVs, COT Ghosts with their debuffs stacked up, and everything else I can recall. 1.3 acc won't do that. Does anyone know for sure? I don't want to spread misinformation. |
If it says 'Auto' it is auto-hit, regardless of the started accuracy.
That is to say, yes Tornado is autohit.
Any power that is listed as:
'Entities autohit: Foe'
Will be autohit against enemies.
4th attribute up from the bottom on the CoD power listings.
And to avoid any confusion, 'Type: Auto' means the power is an auto power for the entity using it, along the lines of Resist Physical Damage or Fast Healing.
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Isn't this the best use for Mr. Twisty? I love how he juggles and bounces those especially chewy targets.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
In this post Windenergy21says that Tornado is not autohit, but has a high accuracy.
I don't mean to imply he/she/you (if you're reading) doesn't know the power, but is that true? I'm unable to interpret City of Data's page on Tornado; there are several different aspects, each described cryptically as "auto" and "accuracy 1" or "accuracy 1.3." I would be stunned if 'Nado has a 1.3 accuracy, as it's consistently hit MOG'd Paragon protectors, AVs, COT Ghosts with their debuffs stacked up, and everything else I can recall. 1.3 acc won't do that. Does anyone know for sure? I don't want to spread misinformation. |
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Really, cause unless they changed it recently, I have DEFINITELY had it repeatedly change versus lets say a high level AV or MOG'd PP from what we all know of the multiple hits of those damages, to where i'd sparsely see it damage at all. This second mention phenomena was of course while NOBODY else was attacking the target (ie spam flood making the damage numbers disperse sporadically)|
Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode
If it says 'Auto' it is auto-hit, regardless of the started accuracy.
That is to say, yes Tornado is autohit. |
Red tomax also has it listed HERE as an accuracy of 1.3
The KNOCKBACK may be autohit, the defense debuff may or may not be, but the damage however IIRC, and experienced, is not.
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Don't forget sailboat, whether the defense debuff is autohit or not, it only takes one tic of the hit of the debuff to get through to not only have the tornado's 1.3 base accuracy, but also its defense debuff to apply as well.| I would be stunned if 'Nado has a 1.3 accuracy, as it's consistently hit MOG'd Paragon protectors, AVs, COT Ghosts with their debuffs stacked up, and everything else I can recall. 1.3 acc won't do that |
Also generally for something that tough most people are using freezing rain on top of it as well.
Regardless its enough base accuracy and debuff to definitely see damage numbers, but i assure you, fight something tough enough and you'll definitely notice that those flows of damage numbers will dwindle down in frequency.
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MoG (at least the old player version which I believe the PPs use) gives about 70% defense to all. Even with a 15% debuff, that's still 55%, enough to floor anyone without tohit buffs. Yet, I've personally *used* tornado on PPs, and seen it hit them just fine. If tornado wasn't auto-hit, it would be floored at somewhere below a 10% chance to hit, even with the 1.3 acc. So, either it's autohit, or else it has at least a 50%ish tohit buff - either way, functionally autohit.
Another possible test would be to use the combat chat logs. I don't know if tornado's rolls (or lack thereof) show up in your chat window, but it would certainly be possible to use tornado on an enemy player and see if it shows up as autohit. Since those aspects of powers don't change between PvP and PvE, that would be conclusive.
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Windenergy, in this case I'm not sure what is being reported as 1.3, it may very well be the accuracy of the aoe, which may not be autohit, I'm not sure. However, the main target of the tornado most certainly IS autohit, and has been at least since anyone bothered taking tornado (I'm not sure if in the early days before tornado had a leash if it was autohit, since anyone would be crazy to take it and use it).|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Really, cause unless they changed it recently, I have DEFINITELY had it repeatedly change versus lets say a high level AV or MOG'd PP from what we all know of the multiple hits of those damages, to where i'd sparsely see it damage at all. This second mention phenomena was of course while NOBODY else was attacking the target (ie spam flood making the damage numbers disperse sporadically)
Red tomax also has it listed HERE as an accuracy of 1.3 The KNOCKBACK may be autohit, the defense debuff may or may not be, but the damage however IIRC, and experienced, is not. |
I suspect what you are seeing when you notice a reduction in the damage ticks is that tornado causes terror and therefore many high level enemies will run from it. Thus you notice a reduction in the damage being dealt because the tornado keeps having to play catch up with the enemy. As long as tornado is able to stay on an enemy though it will keep ticking out damage every half a second.
Your conviction had me concerned they might actually have changed tornado, so I just went and tested in AE by creating a +4 SR enemy and waiting until they eluded and then summoned torando and used electric fence for knockback suppression and over numerous trials the tornado continued to tick consistently every .5 seconds just like it always has without a single lapse or miss.
So...in conclusion TORNADO IS AUTO-HIT and always has been.
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Additional testing suggests that the AoE damage componenet is autohit as well.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39757765@N05/4094614518/
Although it looks as if as a pseudopet you can't get tornado's detailed information to display if the chat window.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Really, cause unless they changed it recently, I have DEFINITELY had it repeatedly change versus lets say a high level AV or MOG'd PP from what we all know of the multiple hits of those damages, to where i'd sparsely see it damage at all. This second mention phenomena was of course while NOBODY else was attacking the target (ie spam flood making the damage numbers disperse sporadically)
Red tomax also has it listed HERE as an accuracy of 1.3 The KNOCKBACK may be autohit, the defense debuff may or may not be, but the damage however IIRC, and experienced, is not. |
If you would care to read the link you have provided, you will note that Tornado's 'Tornado' power deals damage, knockback, -def, and stun all in the same power.
That power is defined as Entities Autohit: Foe. Meaning, all those effects are autohit.
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This probably has more do to with problems with the floating combat text, then anything else. I'm not certain how the float text handles damage that is less than .5. it may be that it simply rounds down to zero and won't display it. However, if you look in you combat channels I guarantee you will see all the ticks accounted for.
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Don't forget sailboat, whether the defense debuff is autohit or not, it only takes one tic of the hit of the debuff to get through to not only have the tornado's 1.3 base accuracy, but also its defense debuff to apply as well.
Also generally for something that tough most people are using freezing rain on top of it as well. Regardless its enough base accuracy and debuff to definitely see damage numbers, but i assure you, fight something tough enough and you'll definitely notice that those flows of damage numbers will dwindle down in frequency. |
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No i always kb supress when using tornado. The most likely scenario is what weartherby said by having values so low that they hold them until they average over .5 damage to display the "1" tick when say facing MOG having the resistance to lower its damage low enough to do so.
| I suspect what you are seeing when you notice a reduction in the damage ticks is that tornado causes terror and therefore many high level enemies will run from it. Thus you notice a reduction in the damage being dealt because the tornado keeps having to play catch up with the enemy. As long as tornado is able to stay on an enemy though it will keep ticking out damage every half a second. |
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Well, technically this isn't a KB suppression but an immobolize issue. With a power like electric fence you will have sufficient KB suppression to ward off tornado with a single application, but you may not have sufficient magnitude to immobolize the enemy causing the run problem that I was mentioning.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
No i always kb supress when using tornado. The most likely scenario is what weartherby said by having values so low that they hold them until they average over .5 damage to display the "1" tick when say facing MOG having the resistance to lower its damage low enough to do so.
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That said, it may very well be the damage reporting problem Weatherby suggested since I do not know how the game handles those situations. I tried playing around with it a little last night but I couldn't get tornado's damage low enough without unslotting it, so I will need to experiment on test later to see.
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To the best of my knowledge, damage ticks are unconditionally rounded up, meaning even damage of 0.01 will appear as "1" in the floating text. This is easy to see with powers like Freezing Rain, which already does less than 0.5 damage per tick.
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Moving was never the issue in what i mentioned, tank taking aggro having the enemy just stand there attacking him.
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Originally Posted by Draggynn
Well, technically this isn't a KB suppression but an immobolize issue. With a power like electric fence you will have sufficient KB suppression to ward off tornado with a single application, but you may not have sufficient magnitude to immobolize the enemy causing the run problem that I was mentioning.
That said, it may very well be the damage reporting problem Weatherby suggested since I do not know how the game handles those situations. I tried playing around with it a little last night but I couldn't get tornado's damage low enough without unslotting it, so I will need to experiment on test later to see. |
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Well, terror caused by tornado, LS, and the need to get out of Freezing Rain can often be enough to trump the tank's aggroing depending on the situation. Not necessarily chasing enemies all across the map, but the minor movement that occur in the pull between terror and aggro or the tanks momentary loss of aggro. If testing proves Uberguy correct and that the damage reported is always rounded up then this would continue to seem like a reasonable explanation to me.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Moving was never the issue in what i mentioned, tank taking aggro having the enemy just stand there attacking him.
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Even if this was not the cause for your noticing reduced ticks in tornado, someone else might find this explanation useful in explaining what they are seeing.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
In this post Windenergy21says that Tornado is not autohit, but has a high accuracy.
I don't mean to imply he/she/you (if you're reading) doesn't know the power, but is that true?
I'm unable to interpret City of Data's page on Tornado; there are several different aspects, each described cryptically as "auto" and "accuracy 1" or "accuracy 1.3."
I would be stunned if 'Nado has a 1.3 accuracy, as it's consistently hit MOG'd Paragon protectors, AVs, COT Ghosts with their debuffs stacked up, and everything else I can recall. 1.3 acc won't do that.
Does anyone know for sure? I don't want to spread misinformation.
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