So... basically the recipes we have now, but that turn into a "token" that can be traded so someone else can turn it in and use it?
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Sort of... Let's take an honest look... Let's think of WoW's crafting system, if we may? A little compare/contrast:|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So... basically the recipes we have now, but that turn into a "token" that can be traded so someone else can turn it in and use it?
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Compare: You need to search for recipes or buy them from vendors/Consignment House
Contrast: While WoW has weapons/armor/gadgets that affect your character, costume pieces are purely aesthetic.
Compare: Despite your race/class/origin/archetype you can select any crafting system.
Contrast: Many items in WoW are 'Soulbound', meaning that you cannot trade them. While any crafted costume bit would be consumed on use, they would all be trade-able.
Compare: This crafting system limits crafting skill level to the character level to prevent people from learning everything by level 1.
Contrast: There will be no 'crafting skill level' that would reach 450+, but rather just the level range of 1-10, 11-20 as previously mentioned. You won't need to grind recipes to learn new costume bits.
Compare: Crafting would offer costume pieces piece-by-piece... Arms, legs, chest, etc.
Contrast: This system wouldn't suck (he said with his nose in the air)
That's the basic idea, but you're entitled to hate if it you'd like to. I know the community has been a bit harsh on the idea of much of anything being unlocked, rather than just given away, but I'd actually like a bit of challenge.
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I don't hate it. The only costume-specific things I tend to be absolutely against are "origin-locked" ones (IE, if you're a magic origin you can have X cape, say, but not if you're tech.) |
Originally Posted by Sigium
That's the basic idea, but you're entitled to hate if it you'd like to. I know the community has been a bit harsh on the idea of much of anything being unlocked, rather than just given away, but I'd actually like a bit of challenge.
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| This crafting system limits crafting skill level to the character level to prevent people from learning everything by level 1 |
Also, how are we *getting* these - recipe drop, learned somewhere, ?
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Nope, nothing would be -locked- to anything, aside from the recipes that a person could learn... For instance? You could be a Magic-Origin--Tech-Crafter. You would be able to share Magic-Oriented costume bits with your Tech buddies, and vice verse.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I don't hate it. The only costume-specific things I tend to be absolutely against are "origin-locked" ones (IE, if you're a magic origin you can have X cape, say, but not if you're tech.)
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The only bit I'm iffy about is - if I'm understanding this correctly - having what you can craft in ranges. Typically with our crafting (not going into WoW - which I'm not all that familiar with - or Aion crafting, since we don't level our "tailoring" or whatever else it would be separately) the lower levels are limited not by skill but by INF.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Also, how are we *getting* these - recipe drop, learned somewhere, ?
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Understood that from your first post |
Originally Posted by Sigium
Nope, nothing would be -locked- to anything, aside from the recipes that a person could learn... For instance? You could be a Magic-Origin--Tech-Crafter. You would be able to share Magic-Oriented costume bits with your Tech buddies, and vice verse.
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I was just making a general statement about me, costume suggestions, and such in response to the "hate it if you want" bit. Quote:
| Inf would be an issue, yes, but I continue to want to keep the level ranges up. I think we've got too many characters that are currently OVER-stimulated with content in some level ranges, and opening this up to all levels would not only add to that, but it could possibly give someone the feeling of "Glad that's done, now to move onto the real content." |
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| There would be vendors for the default costume recipes in the SO Enhancement stores, but otherwise, I'm open to it... A new drop pool? Adding them right into the mix? Perhaps some would also come from quest rewards, I'm not entirely sure, honestly. I apologize for being so sketchy on that particular detail. |
I don't oppose crafting stuff, just to be clear. (It's a way to pass time in Aion, even if it absolutely burns through kinah there, and I tend to stock up lower level common IOs for lowbies in my other SGs - so I craft a good bit.) But I can see the objection - that and perhaps wanting some sort of 'advancement' - much like you mentioned, via WoW (and, yes, Aion, which will give some degree of XP.) But I think that goes a tad farther than you were thinking of for this.
Over the course of the last year, I took a long hiatus from City and primarily played WoW during that time. And I do think the WoW does some things well. But one of the things I never liked about WoW was that the game became less and less about what the character IS and more and more about what the character WEARS.
Now you may argue that this is a purely aesthetic disagreement and the point would have some validity. But unless you are playing a tech-based Iron Man type character or a character who depends on some sort of external source for his power, the idea of 'clothes being power' works much less in this milieu than in a fantasy environment, where it is a commonly accepted trope that the characters are on an endless quest to acquire more and more and more magical items to advance their personal power.
The superhero (or supervillain as the case may be) is far more a product of what the character IS rather than what they WEAR.
Now this is not to say that things cannot be added to this game that will allow the player to fritter away time. This game actually suffers in comparison to WoW in that there are very few time killing devices. In WoW, if your guild doesn't happen to be around or there's nothing planned, you can literally kill a couple of hours herbing or whatever and still get some enjoyment from the activity.
In this game, in my experience, you are either actively in a mission or you are actively rping or you are standing there, in which case you aren't playing for very long that day.
So up with time killers, but down with time killers that make us rely on our clothes to define our level of advancement in the game.
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I don't believe that's what he's saying (and that's one of the other things I'll generally argue against, since that irks me as well. Aion, I had an interesting looking bow - but got to a point where I needed more damage, so needed a new bow, which looks plainer.) |
Originally Posted by Sister_Twelve
So up with time killers, but down with time killers that make us rely on our clothes to define our level of advancement in the game. |
This wouldn't affect the character's skills at all - or damage bonuses, etc. It wouldn't even have a crafting "skill" to advance (barring the badges just for crafting "stuff.") Just levels where you can make different costume bits that would be purely costume bits - just like wings, rocket boots, etc. are now.
At least as I understand it.
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That's it, entirely.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I don't believe that's what he's saying (and that's one of the other things I'll generally argue against, since that irks me as well. Aion, I had an interesting looking bow - but got to a point where I needed more damage, so needed a new bow, which looks plainer.)
This wouldn't affect the character's skills at all - or damage bonuses, etc. It wouldn't even have a crafting "skill" to advance (barring the badges just for crafting "stuff.") Just levels where you can make different costume bits that would be purely costume bits - just like wings, rocket boots, etc. are now. At least as I understand it. |
Maybe I AM a goon for wanting to limit it by every 10 levels, but with enough effort put in by our glorious overlord (JLove) it could still be filled with glorious, glorious content.
There is NOTHING power-related to these new craft-able costumes. You don't gain a superboost from wearing your Level 50 Ancient Tech Bracers of Uber-minus-the-umlaut. They're just. There. For. Looks.
I CAN imagine people not liking this idea for one reason or another. I firmly apologize if this just isn't your cup of tea; if you don't like the idea of crafting aesthetic items.
But Sister... How did you manage to equate this to being related to powers? I couldn't have made it more clear that it doesn't affect performance if I titled this thread 'Costume Parts that do Nothing!"
Forcing player interaction (whether by direct trading or an auction house) by locking down options has always rubbed me the wrong way.
Anything that acts as an impassable obstacle to earning any costume piece is a detriment to the game, IMO.
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But we get so much in this game for free already. In fact, there's so little that we actually have to put in work for that the embodiment of your quote pretty much sums up my feelings of the attitudes of far too many players.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Forcing player interaction (whether by direct trading or an auction house) by locking down options has always rubbed me the wrong way.
Anything that acts as an impassable obstacle to earning any costume piece is a detriment to the game, IMO. |
1. You're not being 'forced' to do anything. Costume pieces are purely aesthetic.
2. Forcing player interaction? I draw a line at some point while playing an MMO: Don't force me on 17 'Collect 50 Artifacts of Useless' missions, don't force me to play in a certain zone, and don't force me to have to upgrade my entire character every level... Forcing player interaction? I'm sorry, but I have to think that you're nutters. In an MMORPG, player interaction is a prerequisite; it's one of the foundations of the game... Of the genre! If you have such a problem with 'forced player interaction', then do you not like support sets because it puts you in a role of teaming with someone? Or a taskforce because it requires teaming? Or Arch-villains, because they require (in many cases) a team?
3. An 'impassable obstacle'? This idea isn't asking for a kidney, it's asking you to choose a single crafting specialization, and make some awesome costume bits. If you find you want some costumes from one and some from another, you're going to have to bite the bullet and interact with fellow human beings.
All in all, your entire argument comes off more pretentious than it does helpful. Had this been a reply for a console game that would involve achievements to unlock costume pieces or something, I'd have some sympathy, but this is a(n) MMO.
I don't like it. I like the idea of origin-themed costume bits (like the super boosters) and I like the idea of origin-themed costume recipes. What I don't like is the whole specialization thing.
I don't want crafting to get more complex. It's simple and direct right now and I like it that way. This is my favorite crafting in any MMO. Anyone can do it, it's optional, and it's extremely simple. It's the perfect blend. Lets not screw it up.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Kinda like what I'm suggesting?|
Originally Posted by Smurch
Anyone can do it, it's optional, and it's extremely simple.
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Actually... With all due respect, crafting origin-related costume pieces would be MORE optional than Enhancement-crafting. The only different is that there are a grand total of 25 different crafting points: 1 per each origin (5), and then 5 level ranges per each origin (5x5).
I'm against this idea quite strongly for two reasons:
One reason is that I'm against craftable (and in general unlockable) costume pieces entirely and absolutely, unless you allow me to unlock these costume pieces for my entire account to be accessible at creation, which would defeat the purpose of the idea.
The other reason is that I CANNOT and WILL NOT stand for the notion of needing something but being unable to acquire it myself, therefore having to track down someone who can do it for me. Never, ever, EVER will I agree with this or accept the notion that it is a good thing. I am not going to change my mind.
City of Heroes is really good about this - no matter what you want, you can always get it by yourself. It may be harder, it may take longer, it may cost more, and on very rare occasions you might actually need a team to fight for it. But I never have to have someone craft things for me, and that's the way I like it. I team with people because I want to be with people. The day I have to team with people for a mechanical benefit is the day I leave this game and never look back. I'm completely serious.
I don't like the very spirit of this idea, and I don't believe it's something the game needs. I'm sorry, but I just don't.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What percentage of the costume parts now available at character creation would you propose to move to the crafting system, and which ones will be left unlocked for all? If everyone had to start their new characters with Noob Pants of Spandex plus Noob Shirt of Spandex, I think you're going to have a hard time selling this to many people.|
Originally Posted by Sigium
There would be vendors for the default costume recipes in the SO Enhancement stores, but otherwise, I'm open to it...
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Originally Posted by Sigium
Contrast: There will be no 'crafting skill level' that would reach 450+, but rather just the level range of 1-10, 11-20 as previously mentioned. You won't need to grind recipes to learn new costume bits.
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I feel exactly the same way, actually. But costume pieces are a very special exception in my book.|
Originally Posted by Sigium
But we get so much in this game for free already. In fact, there's so little that we actually have to put in work for that the embodiment of your quote pretty much sums up my feelings of the attitudes of far too many players.
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| 1. You're not being 'forced' to do anything. Costume pieces are purely aesthetic. |
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| 2. Forcing player interaction? I draw a line at some point while playing an MMO: Don't force me on 17 'Collect 50 Artifacts of Useless' missions, don't force me to play in a certain zone, and don't force me to have to upgrade my entire character every level... Forcing player interaction? I'm sorry, but I have to think that you're nutters. In an MMORPG, player interaction is a prerequisite; it's one of the foundations of the game... Of the genre! If you have such a problem with 'forced player interaction', then do you not like support sets because it puts you in a role of teaming with someone? Or a taskforce because it requires teaming? Or Arch-villains, because they require (in many cases) a team? |
Consider the process required for me to get my hands on a certain piece:
1) Someone has to like to craft.
2) Someone has to want to craft costume parts, and not just IOs.
3) Someone has to have one specific specialization out of five.
4) Someone has to craft those particular parts, probably extra ones, out of the kindness of their hearts or out of pure profit and then sell/trade them.
This is the equivalent of making an exclusive costume recipe on each side of the game, that is only usable on the opposite side, and requiring people to switch over in order to do anything with it. You're adding hoops to jump through for the sake of needless depth, which unfortunately shows that what your idea amounts to is "add more craftable costume parts, but make them more annoying".
Thanks for the ad hominem, though.
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3. An 'impassable obstacle'? This idea isn't asking for a kidney, it's asking you to choose a single crafting specialization, and make some awesome costume bits. If you find you want some costumes from one and some from another, you're going to have to bite the bullet and interact with fellow human beings. All in all, your entire argument comes off more pretentious than it does helpful. Had this been a reply for a console game that would involve achievements to unlock costume pieces or something, I'd have some sympathy, but this is a(n) MMO. |
What I'm rather struck by is how similar this is to another idea I read about recently.
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Actually, just to nitpick - I could easily do this without interacting with anyone else, since I'm so alt-heavy. I could quite likely find someone of each origin in each level range on one of my accounts. |
Originally Posted by Sigium
2. Forcing player interaction? I draw a line at some point while playing an MMO: Don't force me on 17 'Collect 50 Artifacts of Useless' missions, don't force me to play in a certain zone, and don't force me to have to upgrade my entire character every level... Forcing player interaction? I'm sorry, but I have to think that you're nutters. In an MMORPG, player interaction is a prerequisite; it's one of the foundations of the game... Of the genre! If you have such a problem with 'forced player interaction', then do you not like support sets because it puts you in a role of teaming with someone? Or a taskforce because it requires teaming? Or Arch-villains, because they require (in many cases) a team?
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(And no, player interaction is not a prerequisite - I can, if I so choose, go without teaming or dealing with anyone else for most of the game, the exception being the occasional simul-click mission. I'm not required to do group content at all. A system that can run the game and an internet connection are the only prerequisites.)
Crafting is a tightrope of an idea... When people bring it up, the populace tends to gravitate towards 'Blacksmithing, Herbalism, Alchemy, Leatherworking, and Fishmining', a la WoW.
Then the other MMO came in and changed the game a bit, giving the user the choice to choose between 'Arms, Science, Mysticism' to select their specialty from those fields. Still, it felt so very incomplete.
I'd like to suggest the alternative to crafting... Costume Pieces.
Why costume pieces? Because everyone can craft any enhancement, and it would be nice to occasionally rely on others to make some other things.
There are five costume-crafting specialties: Natural, Technology, Science, Mutation, and Magic... How'd ya' guess?
YOU DO NOT NEED TO MATCH YOUR ORIGIN WITH THE CRAFT YOU CHOOSE, I'd like to point out.
For instance, technology will have different costume-crafting recipes than mutation, and will require different pieces of different types of salvage.
After you craft the costume, it becomes a piece of salvage, which you bring to the tailor to unlock the costume pieces themselves. As you go from 1 - 50, you'll be getting different recipes for different costume pieces which will, as necessary, be level-restricted to 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, etc. Costume drops, however, will remain as recipes.
So, what do people think? Origin-related shinies that don't really depend on your origin of choice? Crafting that won't actually affect the gameplay, but would be nice to have?
You may kindly pick this idea apart now.