Working on a new spines scrapper (for perma-duo)
By
BlazingBlue,
Posted on: 2009-09-28 14:56 in Scrappers
I'd recommend /Inv ; Invincibility is an awesome taunt aura that increases your defense and tohit for every foe in range. Having a primary that focuses on AoE, the two will mesh well.
I sent and took a look at invuln as suggested. It actually made me realize something. This might be me not seeing a bigger picture but...I'm not sure any of them is worth taking over /WP.
Regen offers, well, a lot of regen, you can get that in WP just fine.
SR offers high defense and a recharge boost. Well, a few IO's and hasten and you have that in WP also...
Invuln offers resists and a heal. Well, the resists aren't that different (only 10%) from WP for the most part, and the heal is largely un-needed compared to all the regen from WP, and it's first power grants 20% more hp (half of dull-pain and already perma). Not to mention the defens bonus for invincibility is also negated by soft-capping through IO's
Somebody please tell me I'm missing something. WP seems to get great defense, good resist, great regen, and no drawbacks?
Please note this is not a troll or nerf post. I would love to play something other than WP for my spines toon (WP is the only defensive set I tend to play, period, outside of shields if I want a large damage boost) but what do those sets bring that can't be made up for with WP? Once you factor IO's into the situation it seems like WP beats everything other than shields, depending if you want pure damage or pure survivability.
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I might be dead wrong, and since I have not had my first cup of coffee I probably am but the sets were created as if everyone was slotting SOs (Shakes fist at Shields) ,|
Originally Posted by Phoebe_Ponderas
Somebody please tell me I'm missing something. WP seems to get great defense, good resist, great regen, and no drawbacks? Please note this is not a troll or nerf post. I would love to play something other than WP for my spines toon (WP is the only defensive set I tend to play, period, outside of shields if I want a large damage boost) but what do those sets bring that can't be made up for with WP? Once you factor IO's into the situation it seems like WP beats everything other than shields, depending if you want pure damage or pure survivability. |
Willpower is good at all, master at none....with SOs.
So, if you were playing with just SOs....you will see the sets as they were intended. With IOs it is a new ballgame.
But, I am tired and groggy...what do I know...
Lisa-about to ask her own question, then brew coffee.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
"X has more Y but it doesn't matter because I can get Y on Z with IOs, and Z has other things, therefore Z is better."
I see this argument a lot and always disagree with it. You'll make sacrifices to get Y on Z to the point where it is on X, meanwhile X could get more of something else with IOs. Every IO set bonus you get is also another IO set bonus you don't get.
Quote:
That might be true, but...|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
"X has more Y but it doesn't matter because I can get Y on Z with IOs, and Z has other things, therefore Z is better."
I see this argument a lot and always disagree with it. You'll make sacrifices to get Y on Z to the point where it is on X, meanwhile X could get more of something else with IOs. Every IO set bonus you get is also another IO set bonus you don't get. |
A 10% difference in Resistance doesn't make a large difference at all, so you don't really need to slot to improve it on Willpower over Invul (and IO slotting for resist increases is fairly futile as a general rule compared to defense anyway).
Unless you have Instant Healing on, Regen gets a base regeneration of 325% and Willpower has a base of 300%. However, a 25% difference in regeneration amounts to a whole 4 HP/second. Instant Healing is not always up, but RTtC is always up and with only two mobs around you equals Regens regeneration, and with more exceeds it.
The 40% Heal and HP Boost in invuln is nice, but is also not always there. High Pain Tolerance provides a permanent passive 20% increase to health. It may not have the heal of Dull Pain but the regen will heal more over time than Dull Pain did immediately.
SR offers easily capped positional defenses. Positional defenses are easier to soft-cap than typed, and SR gets higher numbers to work with. However, this is where you toss in the mentioned IO's. Soft-capping SR is nice but a couple hits and you drop like a rock. Getting all typed defenses to 35-40% is not hard on a WP scrapper, and once you do that, you still get hit rarely enough that your regen can overcome the damage without difficulty, especially once your sitting at 750% with only one mob around you, let alone if you have more.
Regen provides a stamina recovery power, well...so does Willpower.
The only set that seems to provide anything that WP does not get, and cannot easily replace, is SR with it's recharge buff. Hasten can replace that, but perma-hasten is insanely expensive and not really worth it unless your build is setup around it.
So prove me wrong. Seriously, do it. I want a reason to play something other than Willpower, I really do, but I can't justify playing a weaker set just for the sake of doing something different. If I didn't really enjoy WP it would be a whole different story, but I tend to find the lack of graphics in WP, combined with it's (to me at least) insane power to make it the best defensive set to play next to Shields.
Effective hitpoints. This is how long you're going to live before you actually keel over before healing.
LPH = 1 / (1 - Res)
HPs * LPH = EH
You figure your average scrapper has around 1600 and around 2000 at the upper end for WP.
1 / (1 - 0.2) (we'll assume it's someone with moderately low resistance) = 1.25
1600 * 1.25 = 2000
Now let's give him 10% more resistance.
1 / (1 - 0.3) = 1.42
1600 * 1.42 = 2272
272 HP gain from 10% resistance. 13% gain in longevity. Let's check that for the upper end WP scrapper with 2k HPs.
2000 * 1.25 = 2500
2000 * 1.42 = 2840
Another 13% gain. Now lets take that S/L resistance clear up to 51%ish where it's going to be.
2000 * 2.04 = 4080
Obviously with the spread of different damage types you can't pigeon hole your effective health this easily, but the point remains that a "little" gain in resistance is also going to result in a equal or greater gain in your longevity through effective health.
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I could poke holes in your theorycraft (your numbers are off) or point out I've had actual experience in high performance scenarios with both powersets (and the "proof" is out there in screenshots and videos), but frankly this kind of question comes up every few weeks if not days from different posters and I'm past the point where I care to post a detailed reply about it anymore.| So prove me wrong. Seriously, do it. |
Plus, it's cool to let people believe Invul sucks, it feels more special to play one.
Quote:
I just wanted to point out I did not say Invul sucks, just that it's main advantages can be given to WP in the form of IO's with the exception of the 10ish% resistances.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I could poke holes in your theorycraft (your numbers are off) or point out I've had actual experience in high performance scenarios with both powersets (and the "proof" is out there in screenshots and videos), but frankly this kind of question comes up every few weeks if not days from different posters and I'm past the point where I care to post a detailed reply about it anymore.
Plus, it's cool to let people believe Invul sucks, it feels more special to play one. |
My apologies, I didn't mean to imply you said that. It's just a sentiment I've seen quite a few times in other discussions or ingame.
My only distaste with invuln is the whole typed defense thing. I despise stacking Kinetic Combat sets to get the worthwhile boost in S/L because aside from the S/L defense, the rest of the bonuses are lacking, accuracy especially.
Anyway, I threw this together in a few minutes. Nothing special, but the numbers are far from bad.
My only gripe was hitting only 20% S/L defense, but I couldn't find an easy place to stack anymore of it on. Everything else though I'm fairly happy with. 44% E/N defense,
36% F/C defense, 737% regen with 1 enemy nearby, 2.59/s recovery with Focused Accuracy turned on and just hit 2000 hp. This is without any acolades.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Ruby: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Spines
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lunge -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(5)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), Numna-Heal(36), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(36), Numna-Heal/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Spine Burst -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(7), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(9), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Erad-%Dam(11)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(7), Mrcl-Rcvry+(17), RgnTis-Regen+(23), Mrcl-Heal(34), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(34)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Impale -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(13), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- GftotA-Def(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(43)
Level 12: Mind Over Body -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam(50)
Level 14: Health -- Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(A), Mrcl-Heal(37), Numna-Heal(37), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(43)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Numna-Heal(A), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(36), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(42), Numna-Heal/Rchg(42), DarkWD-ToHitDeb(43)
Level 18: Quills -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(19), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(19), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Erad-%Dam(23)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(39), P'Shift-EndMod(39), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(39)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), Efficacy-EndMod(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(40)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(25), Zephyr-ResKB(25), LkGmblr-Def(42), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 26: Ripper -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(27), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(27), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Erad-%Dam(31)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-Def(48), LkGmblr-Rchg+(48)
Level 30: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(31), Zephyr-ResKB(31)
Level 32: Throw Spines -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(33), Det'tn-Dmg/Rng(33), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(34)
Level 35: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Tough -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Weave -- GftotA-Def(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(50), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
Level 44: Focused Accuracy -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(45), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(46), GSFC-Build%(46)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(48)
Level 49: Strength of Will -- ResDam-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
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Set Bonus Totals:
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 8% Defense(Smashing)
- 8% Defense(Lethal)
- 13% Defense(Fire)
- 13% Defense(Cold)
- 20.5% Defense(Energy)
- 20.5% Defense(Negative)
- 3% Defense(Psionic)
- 7.38% Defense(Melee)
- 20.2% Defense(Ranged)
- 23% Defense(AoE)
- 5.4% Max End
- 15% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 19% FlySpeed
- 271.1 HP (20.2%) HitPoints
- 19% JumpHeight
- 19% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -8)
- Knockup (Mag -8)
- MezResist(Immobilize) 2.75%
- MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%
- 22% (0.37 End/sec) Recovery
- 58% (3.24 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 1.88% Resistance(Energy)
- 19% RunSpeed
- 7% XPDebtProtection
Umm yeah... No. Please don't spark a " /set is the best /set and no point to ever pick up anything but /set" topic. The truth is when you learn and play all of the sets, IOed or SOed, there will be a time you will be in a situation that will have you thinking you wish you had your */other set. You might want to look back a few months. The /wp debate has been talked into the ground. All the advantages and dissadvantages of it vs other sets have already been covered. Every set has a worst nightmare.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
The key point to invulnerabilty, which I don't see mentioned (maybe I missed it) is the large defense bonus invincibility gives you. That is absolutely key in considering it in comparison, having several enemies around you (taunt aura, quills) gives a ton of survivabilty, because that overlaps the selfheal/resists.
Generally speaking (as in discluding psychic enemies) invuln will be more survivable, and is easier to soft cap (consider "I need x amount of enemies to hit soft cap + Bonuses") and also think about what true soft cap to melee is, as the surrounding enemies take a tohit loss.
However, spines is end hungry due to quills (if you intend to run it all day) If you choose WP, Choose it for that reason.
Willpower and spines can also mesh well since quills lowers recharge time of your enemies, thus allowing you more time regenerate.
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Bottom line, Invuln can handle an alpha better, Willpower can handle a longer sustained fight.
Both are survivable and mesh well with spines, neither is strictly superior
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
Quote:
Sorry to nitpick you when you're being helpful, but you said in another thread that Invuln debuffs, and here you say "the surrounding enemies take a tohit loss." I think you might be confusing it with WP. Willpower's RTTC debuffs enemy to-hit a little bit, taunts, and raises the player's regen rate a lot per foe.. Invuln's Invincibility boosts the player's defense and to-hit per foe, and taunts, but does not debuff foes.|
Originally Posted by Katten
Generally speaking (as in discluding psychic enemies) invuln will be more survivable, and is easier to soft cap (consider "I need x amount of enemies to hit soft cap + Bonuses") and also think about what true soft cap to melee is, as the surrounding enemies take a tohit loss.
|
Otherwise I agree with your assessment.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Yea, I'm back again, still exploring the many options that are scrappers now that I'm finally give them a good play around. Don't really have a planned build this time though, I just know I want to try spines and have no idea what works well with it. I do know I want it to be a low-graphics set for concept though. I figure that leaves SR, WP, Inv, and Regen. Buuuuuut which to use, which to use...
Did a quick search of the forum and there's lots of ideas that use any of those. So figured I would take the easy way out and make a post since reading them didn't really help me make up my mind.