PGA in trick arrow - why is the damage debuff so low?

I have been playing with an Archery/TA corruptor on test who just got to 16 and took poison gas arrow in hopes I could use it to cut down on incoming damage from ranged attackers. While I realize that currently the damage debuff on the power is set to the mastermind value instead of the controller value what I can't figure out is why the controller value is so low. Controllers to a -20% damage debuff with PGA where defenders do a -31.25% debuff. Thats a 36% reduction - no other debuff numbers are reduced this far when going from defender to controller/corruptor values. Darkest night's damage debuff goes from 37.5% to 30% (a 20% reduction), enervating field's damage debuff goes from 25% to 20% (a 25% reduction) as does siphon power.

I just find it odd that a set that is fairly light in defensive debuffs has one of it's primary defensive debuffs hit this hard, since all it has otherwise is the to hit debuff in flash arrow and a little bit of recharge debuff in glue arrow, entangling arrow and ice arrow (not much though - 40% total if you can stack them all - one web grenade will beat that).

I didn't pay close attention when the TA set first came out to discussions on it - perhaps someone who did back then knows why the controller version of PGA was reduced so much (and by extension the corruptor/mastermind versions).

I think he means defensive debuffs as in debuffs that help the team survive longer, including -tohit and -def. Trick arrow is indeed light on that department seeing as it mostly does -res and -def with some control.

The Defender version uses a base value of 2.5, while the other three ATs with Trick Arrows use a base value of 2.0

Defender's 2.5 * -0.125 (Melee Debuff_Dam modifier) = -0.3125 or 31.25%

Controller's 2.0 * -0.100 (Melee Debuff_Dam modifier) = -0.2 or 20%

Mastermind's 2.0 * -0.075 (Ranged Debuff_Dam modifier) = -0.15 or 15%

Corruptor's 2.0 * -0.075 (Melee Debuff_Dam modifier) = -0.15 or 15%

Now, there are some... issues with the powers' modifier. Corruptor's version is a copy of the Controller version, but that's kind of what's making it a little bugged. Had the Devs copied the MM version, it would actually be working correctly.

History lesson!

Back in the day of Trick Arrows Alpha testing, Poison Gas Arrow's debuff was created by a pseudopet. Because a pet was using the debuff, it used the pet's Melee Debuff_Dam modifier.

It may or may not have worked similar to the way it does now, but we don't know. What we do know is that the Devs didn't like something about it working this way, and so it was changed so that the debuff actually came from the caster (though the pet is still summoned, but it doesn't actually do anything except keep the gas cloud on the ground visible for twenty-some seconds).

When they did this, they never changed the modifier the power used from the Melee Debuff_Dam one to the Ranged Debuff_Dam one, BUT at that time there were only Defenders and Controllers, and for both of these ATs, their respective Debuff_Dam modifiers were the same whether using the Melee tables or the Ranged tables.

What I mean by that is:

Defender's Melee_Debuff_Dam modifier is -0.125
Defender's Ranged_Debuff_Dam modifier is -0.125

Controller's Melee_Debuff_Dam modifier is -0.100
Controller's Ranged_Debuff_Dam modifier is -0.100

So, for them, it didn't really matter which modifier it used. The problem comes up when given to the villain ATs.

Mastermind's Melee_Debuff_Dam modifier is -0.100
Mastermind's Ranged_Debuff_Dam modifier is -0.075

Corruptor's Melee_Debuff_Dam modifier is -0.075
Corruptor's Ranged_Debuff_Dam modifier is -0.100

Why the difference between Ranged and Melee for these two, I don't really know, but let's move on.

So when Masterminds got Trick Arrows, someone probably noticed "Hey, PGA is higher than it's supposed to be, it must be using the wrong modifier" and so was swapped to the correct Ranged modifier, bringing it down from -20% to -15%.

But now Corruptors have it, and since there version was copied from the Controller version, their PGA still uses the Melee Debuff_Dam modifier, which like I said, doesn't affect Controllers, but on a Corruptor, it makes their debuff value -15% instead of -20%.

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

Thanks for the info trickshooter - I was hoping you or Luminara would remember what happened back when TA was first introduced.

I still think they made the controller version (and subsequently the corruptor version) to weak compared to the defender but if they can fix the corruptor version to do the proper 20% debuff it will at least be worth trying.

Having played around with both A/TA and A/Devices on test I definitely think the A/TA has a better feel - smoother attack sequence and the character feels more mobile and active where the traps version has to spend to much time setting up a 'base' and pulling mobs to it to get maximum benefit out of acid mortar. I would prefer to play a /TA corruptor but since I mostly solo damage mitigation is an issue. My A/TA corruptor does an excellent job of keeping enemies at bow range but I have been avoiding enemies with heavy ranged damage (council for instance) as I expect they will shred my character until I can either kill them a lot faster or have some better damage mitigation.

I'm excited myself to see what changes will be made to TA. Working on a Build for Assault rifle and TA, and I have to say...I'm giggling maniacally at the thought of TA's debuffs and powers like Ignite, flamethrower, and full auto...Muha ha ha.

I may have redraw issues, but I'll be laughing while I burn those mobs to a crisp

I am fairly sure that TA will be very nice for corruptors in a group, however I am finding it difficult to solo. With primarily melee enemies I do fairly well, glue arrow + entangling arrow does an excellent job of keeping things at range. However with enemies that do a lot of ranged damage (or resist slows and immobilizes) the set is seriously short on mitigation.

My current A/TA corruptor on test is level 20 and after repeated attempts to do a simple council paper mission I finally gave up on him. Every single group of 3 white minions shredded him, forcing me to suck down inspirations to stay alive and even then I had to rest a lot. I tried with 2 different builds - in the first build I opened with PGA and glue arrow, hoping to reduce the damage but the sleep was to short to make a difference when it did hit and the 15% damage debuff didn't seem to make much of a difference, plus acid arrow tends to blow the sleep which makes that part of PGA pretty much useless. Also, with the current end costs it doing this for every spawn was nasty on my blue bar. In my alternate build I swapped out PGA for ice arrow and while that softened up the initial alpha it didn't last long enough to prevent a lot of damage. This is what actually prompted this thread - when I noticed that not only did PGA have the MM values but the controller values where a lot lower than I would have expected.

Getting to L22 and slotting my attacks up to SO level might let me kill fast enough to survive but I don't know if I have the patience to continue on for a character I am going to abandon anyway - getting to L20 was enough of a grind with this character.

I would certainly recommend archery as a primary though - early on getting all 3 single target attacks is very nice and the AE isn't bad in the pre-SO levels. Having played a couple of archery blasters up to RoA I know it will be nice for a corruptor but I expect I am going to end up going with an archery/traps corruptor after i16 goes live - traps at least gets FFG for some def and status protection.

I had an A/Traps in Test, and it seemed pretty good, although I didn't solo very much. I planned on going A/Kin corr when i16 went live. So we'll see how that works out, I think it will be pretty NICE.

I sent Castle a PM this past Sunday about the endurance costs and PGA's low value, and Monday he replied that he was forwarding it to Synapse and that he'd take care of it. Too late for launch, but at least they know about it for sure now.

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

SO. . .has this been fixed yet?

Trick Arrows endurance costs and PGA's debuff value are both fixed on Test with today's patch.

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside