Dark Armor Angst


Anti_Llama

 

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Love the thread title.


 

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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect View Post
For the uninitiated, that's not how I roll. I refuse to throw money at holes in a build by purchasing IOs to compensate for something that's not there. Then again, I'm the one enjoying a petless Mastermind in the 30's, so there's probably something else going on up there.
So you dont use IO's at all? What a shame, they increase performance alot.


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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf View Post
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
Yeah, I like Blasters too.

 

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Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS View Post
So you dont use IO's at all? What a shame, they increase performance alot.
This would have been a great post if it was in any way in response to something that I said and not just putting words in my mouth.


 

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This would have been a great pic if you weren't actually the one who started trolling by answering rudely to his comment, as he only tried to help.

Technically, he's completely right in his follow up too. If you don't buy IOs to compensate for something that's not there, then surely you don't buy any sets as the bonuses aren't in the set, and even common IOs should be out of the question as the enhancements bonuses aren't in the base build either.

You're someone special alright, playing petless masterminds to brag about it on the forums and type snarky answers at people because they dare assume you, GuyPerfect, would be a mere commoner who follows the normal trends. These fools !


 

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Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
If you don't buy IOs to compensate for something that's not there, then surely you don't buy any sets as the bonuses aren't in the set, and even common IOs should be out of the question as the enhancements bonuses aren't in the base build either.
This is faulty reasoning. One needs not avoid IOs altogether just to avoid using IOs to compensate for holes in a build. In regards to Dark Armor's lack of knockback protection, I stated I will not purchase -KB IOs to make up for it. The response, which you claim is "completely right," suggested how unfortunate it is that I always avoid using any IOs at all ever in any way all the time whatsoever.

There's a difference between taking Acrobatics over -KB IOs and avoiding using any IOs at all. At least I think there is. After all, I am a rude, snarky, special troll, so what do I know? I could be wrong.


 

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Just to say it, this is why I've always insisted on not taking Aid Other on a Buff/Debuff set that doesn't have a heal power, and why the devs decided to make Tanker Taunt an AoE, since they didn't feel it was right to make them go to the Pool for Provoke.

Not to say that it doesn't take two to argue, because it does. But some people don't mind the fact that Dark Armor doesn't have any knockback protection, and feel it's part of the unique challenge of the set. The same with those who like the look of Cloak of Darkness granting them total transparency. Some like it, some don't.

Which is why I think customization is a great solution in this case since it is optional.


 

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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
The only advantage CoD really has during combat is that it decreases the radius at which foes you have no aggroed can spot you. In other words, it cuts down on adds. In some cases you want adds, though, so you would likely turn it off.

The Defense is better than CJ, it is about twice, and doesn't suppress. And it does give you a +Perception. Still, it's circumstancial enough that you can turn it off and on, IMHO.

I built a softcapped DA scrapper, and CoD is a BIG part of getting there. I have it 6 slotted with Red Fortune. The defense it gives is equal to Weave and doesn't suppress like other stealth powers.

Not seeing my costume is a small price to pay for 40% resistances and 45+% defense to all 3 positions, plus the best heal in the game.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect View Post
For the uninitiated, that's not how I roll. I refuse to throw money at holes in a build by purchasing IOs to compensate for something that's not there. Then again, I'm the one enjoying a petless Mastermind in the 30's, so there's probably something else going on up there.
Get over yourself.

I have no idea who you are and what you do, nor do I care to find out.
You make it seem like I should know "how you roll".

Your far from perfect Guy.

I see why you have your reputation disabled.


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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf View Post
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
Yeah, I like Blasters too.

 

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I was worried there for a moment. Almost thought I'd posted that picture preemptively.

Though I don't suppose you'd believe me if I told you that three quarters of all the rep I've received was positive? I knew I shouldn't have replied to that PK thread...


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect View Post
For the uninitiated, that's not how I roll. I refuse to throw money at holes in a build by purchasing IOs to compensate for something that's not there. Then again, I'm the one enjoying a petless Mastermind in the 30's, so there's probably something else going on up there.
I'm just going to say that every powerset was designed to have holes and weaknesses. IO's are what allow us to compensate for those weaknesses.

Would you refuse to "throw money" at a granite tank so it could handle psionic damage? Regen can't take an alpha without moment of glory, so would you "throw money" at it to add enough defense and/or resistance to compensate? Or do you write off those sets as unplayable because of designed holes?

I don't know many teams that would let a petless MM tag along, but even so, if you've gotten to the 30's with it, you must be using IO's to compensate for the "holes" you've given yourself.

EDIT TO ADD: I'm not making the same assumption that JamMaster has about you not using IO's at all. Your statement does implicate that you won't use IO's to compensate for an innate weakness. How can you play anything when everything is designed to have a hole somewhere?


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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
I'm just going to say that every powerset was designed to have holes and weaknesses. IO's are what allow us to compensate for those weaknesses.

Would you refuse to "throw money" at a granite tank so it could handle psionic damage? Regen can't take an alpha without moment of glory, so would you "throw money" at it to add enough defense and/or resistance to compensate? Or do you write off those sets as unplayable because of designed holes?

I don't know many teams that would let a petless MM tag along, but even so, if you've gotten to the 30's with it, you must be using IO's to compensate for the "holes" you've given yourself.

EDIT TO ADD: I'm not making the same assumption that JamMaster has about you not using IO's at all. Your statement does implicate that you won't use IO's to compensate for an innate weakness. How can you play anything when everything is designed to have a hole somewhere?
Except that not everything HAS a weakness, for example willpower really has no single weakness (yes, folks like to say it is weak to a 'beta' strike but all that really means is if you shove more damage at it than it's regen can overcome you will eventually wear it out - pretty much every defensive set but soft-capped def sets have this weakness). Some scrapper/brute/tank defensive sets do have holes in them. Those holes are NOT there because they can be filled in by an IO as the dev's have stated many times that they don't balance around IO's. The holes generally exist because the dev's think something else in the set balances them. Fiery aura has a KB weakness (and to a limited extend an immobilize weakness) because the dev's felt that this balances the sets extra damage powers. Stone armor has a psionic hole I suppose because it is so strong everywhere else. Regen is weak to burst damage but incredibly strong to sustained damage - etc.

Even many of the classic weak points have been recognized by the dev's to be a mistake and filled in with updates. MoG was changed to be an excellent alpha absorber, electric armor is getting a regen/heal power in i16, and so on.

So refusing to use IO's to fill in a specific hole is NOT unreasonable. It may not be the best way to optimize character performance, but plenty of the holes have non-IO solutions (such as acrobatics).

Based on Guy's comments it sounds like instead of filling in a sets holes with IO's he either slogs on with the hole, living with the limitations of it or fills it in with pool powers such as acrobatics. Which may make him something of a masochist but is it really worth a lot of derision?

Ultimately, this entire argument came about because Guy made an offhand comment about not relying on IO's to fill holes in sets and another poster jumped to the assumption that he meant that he NEVER uses IO's. Ignoring the fact that this is still a perfectly acceptable way to play the game (not using IO's) I have to agree with Guy that it is silly to jump from "I don't rely on IO's to fill in holes" to "I never use IO's". Is it really that important to 'zing' someone that you have to attack a poster for an offhand comment that really isn't even about the thread topic?

I also think that if many people feel a set is unplayable without IO's they should be pushing the dev's to improve the set. Deriding someone for not being willing to add unique, expensive IO's to dark armor either means you are being an a** or you don't think the set is playable with SO's - in which case you need to take that to the dev's.


Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Would you refuse to "throw money" at a granite tank so it could handle psionic damage? Regen can't take an alpha without moment of glory, so would you "throw money" at it to add enough defense and/or resistance to compensate? Or do you write off those sets as unplayable because of designed holes?
I indeed refuse to use IOs to plug the types of holes you mentioned. On the other hand, I don't write those sets off as unplayable due to those holes. If Granite Armor won't protect against Psionic, don't go fighting Kalinda with it. If Regeneration can't take alpha, don't jump in the middle of a big group.

Were there no Acrobatics for use with Dark Armor, I'd be avoiding enemies with knockback just like the above. I'd rather go without knockback protection than invest in the IOs to overcome it. That kind of mentality is what results in 1% tax increases every year.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
I don't know many teams that would let a petless MM tag along, but even so, if you've gotten to the 30's with it, you must be using IO's to compensate for the "holes" you've given yourself.
Only in the forums has anyone suggested that teams will discriminate against a Mastermind with no Henchmen. In practice, through the many times I've played the character, never once have I encountered a team that said "Eew, no. Go away." What I've found is that it's still a viable solo character as well as effective team support. It doesn't have the micro-managed aggro control that normally comes with Masterminds, but it still does reasonable ranged damage and the debuffs are quite potent.

Neurotoxic Breath, in addition to the other powers in Poison, can and have convinced teams that they want to keep me around because of what I have to offer for them. A few times, people have even expressed joy that I didn't bring yet more pets onto the map.

The character is currently slotted with SOs and does not have Weave, Fitness or Leadership.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
How can you play anything when everything is designed to have a hole somewhere?
I keep track of my strengths and weaknesses and pick my fights accordingly.


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Originally Posted by EricHough View Post
Is it really that important to 'zing' someone that you have to attack a poster for an offhand comment that really isn't even about the thread topic?
To be fair, there are times when I intentionally and indiscriminately post things that I know people will take offense to just to see how it goes. It's not that I enjoy causing damage (because I don't), but it very quickly serves to differentiate between those with pompous self-righteousness and those with level-headed thinking. It helps to find useful posts by culling out the ones that only exist to flame.


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
I built a softcapped DA scrapper, and CoD is a BIG part of getting there. I have it 6 slotted with Red Fortune. The defense it gives is equal to Weave and doesn't suppress like other stealth powers.

Not seeing my costume is a small price to pay for 40% resistances and 45+% defense to all 3 positions, plus the best heal in the game.
Well, technically speaking what you are paying for is NOT having ONLY 40% resistances and 39+% defense. Granted that 5.6% defense is quite useful on top of 39% defense, but it would be useless without the foundation it's adding to.

Also, AFAIK it is not necessary to have CoD on to recieve its Set IO bonuses.

It really does only matter whether you don't mind not being able to see your costume, or don't mind just seeing it occasionally, and turning on CoD when you want or need its full benefit.


 

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My main is a Broadsword/Dark Armor scrapper, and I don't really mind not being able to see his costume in-combat, but I can see why others would. This would be a good thing to apply customization options to, like others have said, and to be honest, if they did so, I'd probably make my costume more visible too, but it's not something I lose sleep over.

With me no longer needing a prerequisite for a travel power, I chose Cloak of Darkness over Combat Jumping for the things it provides that CJ doesn't (stealth and perception, namely). I found Combat Jumping to be redundant to my build, but before I got the vet reward to forgo a travel prerequisite, I chose it as the lesser of two evils, since Jump Kick was even more redundant, and needed a greater investment of slots to reach its maximum effectiveness. I chose to go with a Karma IO in Parry for my knockback protection, which I find works well enough in all but the most extreme cases of knockback.

I also heavily use set bonuses to offset weaknesses in my Scrapper's build, but this is because my BS/DA scrapper is my main. I typically save the decisions on which set bonuses to go for until late in a character's development, when I have a better idea of what its weaknesses are.

And as for Granite Armor having a Psionic hole, I planned on dealing with that on my Dark/Stone Brute after getting Granite the same way I dealt with it before getting Granite. That would be Minerals, synergizing with the stacking ToHit debuffs from my primary. I find that, pre-Granite, Stone Armor is, like Willpower, a "jack-of-all-trades" mitigation set. It skews mostly toward Defense (Rock Armor, Crystal Armor, Minerals) which synergizes well with the Dark Melee primary, but also offers Resistance (Stone Skin, Brimstone Armor), and Healing/Regeneration (Earth's Embrace, Rooted). I planned on saving Granite for a panic button when soloing, and keeping it on constantly to serve as main tank on teams, relying on my teammates to deal with psionic foes.


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Arc ID# 70466: From the Abyss.
Arc ID# 403174: The Serpent's Revenge.
Arc ID# 534236: The Clockwork Angel.

 

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Were there no Acrobatics for use with Dark Armor, I'd be avoiding enemies with knockback just like the above. I'd rather go without knockback protection than invest in the IOs to overcome it.
So if a Karma or Steadfast KB Protection IO dropped from an enemy in a mission (thereby not costing you any money) you would refuse to use it? Or is it just that you don't want to pay for it?

I have no choice but to use them if I want my BS/DA to be at all effective, simply because so many enemy types in the late game have knockback powers. His build is set up to be softcapped and I can't afford either the power pick or the endurance to run Acrobatics. Fortunately when he was in the 20's he had one of each KB Protection IO drop off enemies, so I didn't have to pay for them.

If I didn't have them I would spend more time on my back than fighting in some missions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.