Most ST Buffs (FF, Cold, Kin, etc.) to become AoE
By
ArcticFahx,
Posted on: 2009-08-25 09:12 in Suggestions and Ideas
No. Hugely overpowered compared to what we have now. If 18 seconds of re-buffing every 4 minutes (360 seconds) is a "pain in the butt", play something else. I don't want my bubbles to require me to gather the team, and spend 45 end on each.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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"Sorry Joe, can't afford to buff you right now, otherwise I won't have enough endurance to maintain my toggles! Sucks to die, huh?"
Is what I see happening.
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Honestly, I do play something else. I've really only played "active debuff" AT's, so I don't have to refresh shields and such. I have played a kin/ defender, but SB isn't like FF in that people don't die when SB wears off. I'm just tired of the buffing AT's "forgetting" or just being too lazy to keep the shields up. Also, it gets difficult to rebuff during longer AV fights or raids where the team can get spread out.|
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
No. Hugely overpowered compared to what we have now. If 18 seconds of re-buffing every 4 minutes (360 seconds) is a "pain in the butt", play something else. I don't want my bubbles to require me to gather the team, and spend 45 end on each.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
"Sorry Joe, can't afford to buff you right now, otherwise I won't have enough endurance to maintain my toggles! Sucks to die, huh?"
Is what I see happening. |
This does become a problem when people die, because they will need to be rebuffed after rezzed. Masterminds already deal with this, because if one pet dies you have to resummon and then re-equip/upgrade one pet at the cost of 6. It sucks, but we still do it, and I feel it is a worthwhile tradeoff.
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I believe one of the devs commented on this a couple of years ago and said that changes of this sort in buff powers wouldn't be free. Like an AoE or 5 minute long Speed Boost would end up with either a weaker buff, dramatically increased End, or both. At which point everyone in the thread said "never mind!" 
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Which, to my mind, is a VERY reasonable response (both on the part of the devs and on the part of the players).
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Originally Posted by Sardan
I believe one of the devs commented on this a couple of years ago and said that changes of this sort in buff powers wouldn't be free. Like an AoE or 5 minute long Speed Boost would end up with either a weaker buff, dramatically increased End, or both. At which point everyone in the thread said "never mind!"
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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My point is, this is exactly what they did to MM's. They made the buffs cost more endurance, and I honestly feel it was a QoL improvement that maintained balance.
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Originally Posted by Sardan
I believe one of the devs commented on this a couple of years ago and said that changes of this sort in buff powers wouldn't be free. Like an AoE or 5 minute long Speed Boost would end up with either a weaker buff, dramatically increased End, or both. At which point everyone in the thread said "never mind!"
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Except that the buffs were already permanent and were already being applied to pretty much every pet out anyway (and the application of those was actually factored in to the internal balance of the AT). It didn't change any real effect because the buffs were never intended to be activated after the initial cast.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My point is, this is exactly what they did to MM's. They made the buffs cost more endurance, and I honestly feel it was a QoL improvement that maintained balance.
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The big issue with making them permanent is that you're eliminating the primary balance factors for the powers: animation time and attention. The buffs require that you actually stop doing other stuff (re: killing) and spend 30 seconds buffing your teammates every 4 minutes or so (in the case of FF, Thermal, Cold, and Sonic).
As to making them AoE but with restrictions, you remove a lot of the utility as well as making them a lot more powerful. When it only takes 2 seconds every 4 minutes to reapply buffs, you're paying a lot less animation time for the exact same bonus, moreso if you factor in affecting pets that normally get ignored because it's hard to find/target them normally. If you restricted the buffs to only your own pets and teammates, you're removing a lot of the other utility that many shield players have come to appreciate. I know that, whenever AoEs are flying around like crazy and pets aren't surviving, I'll oftentimes spend a few extra seconds to buff the little buggers so that the Controllers can keep them up. For RWZ raids, I often spend all or most of the time on my FF fender keeping my shields up on everyone rather than blasting because I realize that keeping everyone alive is making everything move faster than my blasting a bit, especially where other Controllers and Defenders are concerned.
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Alright, you bring up a lot of good points. I especially wasn't thinking about how the animation times and attention requirements were factored into the balance of the powers. I rescind my request to have this suggestion considered.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Except that the buffs were already permanent and were already being applied to pretty much every pet out anyway (and the application of those was actually factored in to the internal balance of the AT). It didn't change any real effect because the buffs were never intended to be activated after the initial cast.
The big issue with making them permanent is that you're eliminating the primary balance factors for the powers: animation time and attention. The buffs require that you actually stop doing other stuff (re: killing) and spend 30 seconds buffing your teammates every 4 minutes or so (in the case of FF, Thermal, Cold, and Sonic). As to making them AoE but with restrictions, you remove a lot of the utility as well as making them a lot more powerful. When it only takes 2 seconds every 4 minutes to reapply buffs, you're paying a lot less animation time for the exact same bonus, moreso if you factor in affecting pets that normally get ignored because it's hard to find/target them normally. If you restricted the buffs to only your own pets and teammates, you're removing a lot of the other utility that many shield players have come to appreciate. I know that, whenever AoEs are flying around like crazy and pets aren't surviving, I'll oftentimes spend a few extra seconds to buff the little buggers so that the Controllers can keep them up. For RWZ raids, I often spend all or most of the time on my FF fender keeping my shields up on everyone rather than blasting because I realize that keeping everyone alive is making everything move faster than my blasting a bit, especially where other Controllers and Defenders are concerned. |
I'll just remain very appreciative of the good/attentive buffers.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Unenhance Speed boost cost 7.8 endurance, 1.0 seconds to activate, and 2.0 seconds to recharage, so there is a 3.0 second delay between each endurance cost. Making Speed Boost cost 2.6 endurance per second. A players recovery speed is 1.67end/sec.
In the time it takes to speed boost 8 players 62.4 end was spent and 36.74 end was recovered, costing the player 25.66 end in 22 seconds or -1.1663...end/sec depleting all off the players endurance in 85.73655 seconds. Plenty of time to recharge the players endurance with Transference.
But than there's the duration of the power 2.00 minutes. Given 1 minute and 38 seconds until the next round of SBs is needed to be applied spread the cost throughout a 2 minute span, costing 0.52end/sec for 8 players or 0.065end/sec/person + time saved, AoE, and toggle fees, what ever that is.
If it ain't broke set it on fire, then say it was a fault in the design.
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well, as an alternate solution...
they could make them timed-power-granting-toggles
this is how it would work:
- Buffer toggles on the power and pays a very small amount of end to keep it up.
- The toggle counts as external and can therefore be detoggled.
- The toggle grants any "ally" the buff it would normally give and just like the repel toggles, costs the user extra end.
- This toggle would be like Grant Cover in that it does not include the caster.
- The granted buff would also run on a timer, probably identical to the current times.
- When the buff wears off, the ally must return to the toggle aura to have the buff granted again.
However...this brings up a nice gameplay approach...
- Player A toggles on the buff aura. He is lazy and just wants to turn it on and forget it...for this, he must pay more end.
- Player B toggles on the buff aura. He is more active and only toggles on his power for a second in order to buff all of his allies...for this, he expends less endurance, but needs to toggle/detoggle his power every few minutes to keep his team buffed.
I will admit, I actually like that solution a lot. On the other hand, I also still don't think it's necessary.
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I would like to see most single target buffs converted to a targeted AoE buff that lasts until you zone. Much like the MM henchmen upgrades, rather than a single target refreshing buff, make it a one time cast AoE that costs more endurance. I believe the effects would be mere QoL improvements, and would not create a significant shift of balance to the powers. This suggestion is for buffs that are on a long timer already, such as shields and speed boost, but not the short duration increase density or the long recharge buffs like frostwork and forge.
Example scenario: Start of mission, FF defender uses his two shield powers, then can focus on using his attacks (to include primary powers) for the rest of the mission. The group splits up for a second because two people don't want speed boost, and the /kin controller buffs the group that wants it. Now the granite tank doesn't have to spam SB PLZ.
Potential abuse: Rikti raid. Everyone gets every buff forever. Raid is now unstoppable. Low level character gets buffs from high level friend in passing, and now is free to street sweep with near impunity.
Possible solution: Convert these buffs so that they can only be cast on teammates, just like Recall Friend.
Additional possible solution: Make the buff wear off if you leave the team. This, however, would be a pain for the devs to code.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.