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was wondering if anyone was gonna catch that |
Originally Posted by Zanthar
Had to cap that because it was kinda ironic.
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Originally Posted by Zanthar
Anyway had to say that most if not all brute second set of skills seemed some what balanced to me though some are better than others. EA is my least favorite of the sets but thats personal prefrence more than anything eles. As odd as it may seem surviving 5 even conned minions seems more than doable in all sets, even freaks. Should be fairly easy to boost how good your effectivness is with IO's and set bonuses. Also taking Pools is a must for any build, i mean after all unless you spend your entire life in AE your going to want a travel power and the extra defence/resists that some of the pool powers give are just too good to pass up (save on /WP which really dosent need them)
I hate to say it but Pling a character dosent give you any idea on how a skill set works (or really any in depth way on how it works) some players can figure it out some cant. You miss that leaning curve at low levels which basicly teaches you about what the set can and cant do. Best advice is slot up any holes you see and patch em up with Power pool picks if you think its required. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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actually i think what you said was:|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
I haven't suggested anything of the like, now you are just reaching.
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| all sets other than Stone are broken by your standard. . |
So... all sets don't provide similar potential... and that's... Ok somehow?
The argument can be made that if baseline survival is low, and fully enhanced survival is high, then things might be ok. SD is a bit like that.
That's not how the devs balance things, but... at least I can well understand the argument.
And no, all other sets are NOT broken by my standard. In fact the only sets I'd take some issue with are Ele (soon to be modified) /EA, slightly too weak.
SR gets essentially broken Defence resistance. That's worth a lot. Fire gets its extra damage, invul gets reasonably well balanced performance now, with less general survival than WP, but with superior general debuff protection. etc. etc.
I think we'll just have to agree to dissagree. I'm not sure what After playing a couple of EAs to 50, and a couple of EMs to 50, I do know that IO'd EM/EA can be plenty strong, but it's not one of the greats, or really one of the goods without investment. Certainly my WPs DAs Invuls and Fires have more going for them pre-IO. If this isn't your experience having played these sets to 50... well then so be it.
Id also happily conceed that so long as Grav exists in it's current state, EA shouldn't be anyone's greatest balance concern, As it now stands it works. Thing is, as it now stands, it's still below the curve in my book, offering too little in an unenhanced condition, the state where balance matters most.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Keep in mind that the devs have previously taken action when an AT demonstrably required pools to do it's job.| taking Pools is a must for any build,. |
(tanker taunt)
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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To the best of my knowledge, there is no confirmation that /EA is getting energize. |
Originally Posted by Sitriel
Nobody is mentioning that, because it is not true. Due to Positron talking about this change in an interview and a minor mishap at the beginning of the closed beta that allowed people a little peekaboo at the power list it is quite well known that CP will be replaced with Energize, a short duration half-CP with a regeneration boost and a nice heal all rolled into one neat package.
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If it is, then EA will become one of the more powerful sets available, particularly when IO'd... but only in the late game.
It's not what I would call the right choice for EA... it'll still be too soft for the early game, then it'll be arguably too strong in the late game, but at least it'll reward somewhat weak early play with powerful late game play. It's not Ideal, but it would make it impossible to claim that EA, on the whole, was weak.
If it happens.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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I think your first statement is correct and so is the OP to an extent. Other than for /stone, /willpower and /inv (and I guess SD as well), the other sets are hardmode and need to be combined with a specific primary to even survive, not necessarily to do exceedingly well. The ezmode secondaries have several things in common:|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Then all the sets are broken except /stone, and maybe /inv.
To make them sturdy, it takes little to no effort. Every other set requires some extra effort on the players part to get to the same performance. I'm sorry, but I just can't take any argument seriously anymore on this issue. I just took a level 27 /DA stalker, and running papers set on relentless, took on 4 mobs at a time. Not even conned mobs, +2 and +3 mobs, red con lt's and purple conned bosses. Freakshow no less, where DA is gonna get hammered due to no energy resistance and a whopping 5% total defense. And no, I don't even have murky cloud on that toon yet, so there is no energy resistance at all. The bosses, when I was stupid enough to just stand in front of them, could 2 and 3 shot me easy. If this guy is having this much of a problem, it is his build, period. |
- A reasonable mix of +DEF, +Res and +Res to DEF Debuff
- HP Increase/Heal and/or Regen
- Easy End management in terms of # of toggles, toggle costs and self-heal costs.
Dark's just got too many toggles that don't do enough and stupidly expensive/unreliable self-heals in addition to having all the shortcomings of the other craptastic sets.
Elec gets debuffed into negative DEF and can barely trigger Aid Self.
Eng doesn't scale enough with enemy numbers.
Fire at least has a dirt cheap heal that puts it in the middle of the performance pack between the suckage sets and the ezmoders.
Just pick up an extra attack or 2 and tele and all /Stone's issues are covered. /Inv needs even less. /WP doesn't suffer the fury decay of the weaker sets of waiting for endurance or health before the next set of mobs. /Dark in particular is horrible for this because of the number of toggles, the huge endurance costs of the heals and the craptastic defensive values compounded by the slowness of fury gain due to CoF or OG running (and I say that as someone who thinks /Dark is absolutely awesome for my Scrapper).
After giving up on Brutes after leveling a Dark/Dark and a Elec/Elec, I recently came back and started a Fire/Stone and it feels like a night and day difference from the other sets I've played and I no longer feel like a /Traps Corruptor would be a better addition to the group than the Brute. That is, I think, the biggest issue with playing one of the non-ezmode brute secondaries; the feeling that some other AT can do the Brute's job you're doing better.
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I wouldn't say requires a specific primary to survive, but rather specific primaries will not complement certain armor sets. And that's just how the game will have to be. Unless you want every set to be exact duplicates of eachother, one set will be complemented better by x, g, m and r set while not meshing well with q, y and k set. As long as the devs introduce new sets with varying capabilities and effects, that is just how things will be.| Other than for /stone, /willpower and /inv (and I guess SD as well), the other sets are hardmode and need to be combined with a specific primary to even survive, not necessarily to do exceedingly well. |
And because of this, player expectations will change as well. Because Willpower + Psi Melee can do such and such so every other set must do such and such or be compensated for it or Shields + Radiation Melee can solo this and that but you can't with Energy Aura or Elec Armor so those sets are broken....
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| That is, I think, the biggest issue with playing one of the non-ezmode brute secondaries; the feeling that some other AT can do the Brute's job you're doing better. |
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I don't think anyone is looking for identical powersets, identical strengths| because of this, player expectations will change as well. Because Willpower + Psi Melee can do such and such so every other set must do such and such or be compensated for it or Shields + Radiation Melee can solo this and that but you can't with Energy Aura or Elec Armor so those sets are broken. |
I would ask that if a set is weaker overall than a second set about half the time, then the second set should be weaker the other half the time... or perhaps WAY stronger a quarter of the time...
Or very approximately so. Noone is going to ask for a stopwatch here, but if one secondary is meaningfully eclipsed by others, without adequate compensation elsewhere? That's a problem.
EDIT: Again, if EA gets energize, this is all out the window.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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It's not the lack of complement. It's that matching primaries and secondaries are actually detrimental for the non-ezmode sets - i.e. Elec/Elec or Fire/Fire, whereas other matches such as SS/Inv and Stone/Stone work great. Ok I take that back, anything pretty much works great with /Inv and /Stone which is the point I was making. Those ezmode secondaries don't need specific primaries to stand on their own. That doesn't have to be how the game will be because enough complaints can get things monitored and then changed.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I wouldn't say requires a specific primary to survive, but rather specific primaries will not complement certain armor sets. And that's just how the game will have to be.
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| Unless you want every set to be exact duplicates of eachother, one set will be complemented better by x, g, m and r set while not meshing well with q, y and k set. As long as the devs introduce new sets with varying capabilities and effects, that is just how things will be. |
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| And because of this, player expectations will change as well. Because Willpower + Psi Melee can do such and such so every other set must do such and such or be compensated for it or Shields + Radiation Melee can solo this and that but you can't with Energy Aura or Elec Armor so those sets are broken.... |
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| I think you're over analyzing your team contributions and over emphasizing your role in a team as a melee AT. Just because you're a Brute doesn't mean it's all about you. Either you combine what you can do with your pri/sec sets with that of the team or just worry about your own bum. You're not a defender and you're not a tanker. |
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Your expectations are not my expectations. /stone is the WORST mitigation set in the game for me. Why? Because the mitigation it offers is less than pathetic for 37 levels. It's mez protection kills your movement. Lack of movement kills fury.| There are team expectations of a Brute. If other ATs can bring the SMASH and survive better than the non-ezmode sets, what's the point in having the hardmode sets? The only use I see for them are aesthetics and e-peen brags. If that's the case, we need a new AT for them so we can avoid them. |
Even after 38, it's locked into teleport or it gets destroyed by curbs.
I had a much harsher reply to your post than this, but I find that it's not worth it to me anymore.
Believe whatever you like. The devs aren't listening to arguments like yours anyway.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Actually, from what I recall of the calculations, non-granite stone is fairly close to fire in mitigation... although obviously lacking in mobility which is a monstrous problem for a brute without a friendly kin or a LOT of IO mobility... neither of which should be taken for granted. You don't get fire's extra damage either... but just mitigation? not so bad really.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Your expectations are not my expectations. /stone is the WORST mitigation set in the game for me. Why? Because the mitigation it offers is less than pathetic for 37 levels. It's mez protection kills your movement. Lack of movement kills fury.
Even after 38, it's locked into teleport or it gets destroyed by curbs. I had a much harsher reply to your post than this, but I find that it's not worth it to me anymore. Believe whatever you like. The devs aren't listening to arguments like yours anyway. |
I'm not sure what you mean about devs and arguments. As far as I know, the devs datamine for performance.
Assuming there's a genuine performance difference (And with current Ele and to a lesser extent /EA I personally do think there is) It SHOULD show up on a data file somewhere whatever arguments might or might not be made on the forums.
Whether or not any such hypothetical short fall is enough to do anything about is a different issue of course.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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The problem I see with that is no one will ever agree sets are not identical in function yet equal in effectiveness or utility. Because if it's not 'set it and forget it' it has to have some kind of advantage for being active. As if this isn't an interactive game. IMO, the 'set it and forget it' nature of Willpower is a disadvantage of the set because it makes for a boring set and rewards player skill disproportionately than other armor sets.| I don't think anyone is looking for identical powersets, identical strengths |
I'm not saying EA doesn't need something but all this 'ezmode/non-ezmode' stuff is not really an argument to instill a change in the set.
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| And if WP + Psi can do 50% of the content and Shields + Rad can do the other 50%, it would be balanced. To take your example to represent the current situation, any of the ezmode sets + anything can breeze through 95% of the content while the hardmode sets are struggling to handle 50% with the same efficacy. |
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Yes, they do. And that same datamining is what led Castle to add the minor per enemy health buff to energy drain.| I'm not sure what you mean about devs and arguments. As far as I know, the devs datamine for performance. |
The set has already been buffed. It was buffed due to calls from players and based on datamining.
What makes anyone think further datamining is going to cause Castle to buff the set further when the datamining has already been done?
Be well, people of CoH.
Take a step, see how it works. If it's enough? great. If not, take another step.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Agreed. But some of the posters here need to remember this little tidbit:
EA will have equivalent mitigation to a post-granite stoner when /stone gets a pbaoe end drain with a minor heal and conserve power in the set.
There is a huge difference between asking for more out of a logical need and asking for more out of greed.
Too many in this thread are doing the latter.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I was being sarcastic. I think that all the secondaries are pretty well balanced. I personally hate /stone, and find it boring as hell. I like /WP, and /inv, I loved DA for tanks, and am working up a DA brute because I just dig the set. |
Originally Posted by tarrantm
I think your first statement is correct and so is the OP to an extent. Other than for /stone, /willpower and /inv (and I guess SD as well), the other sets are hardmode and need to be combined with a specific primary to even survive, not necessarily to do exceedingly well. The ezmode secondaries have several things in common:
- A reasonable mix of +DEF, +Res and +Res to DEF Debuff - HP Increase/Heal and/or Regen - Easy End management in terms of # of toggles, toggle costs and self-heal costs. Dark's just got too many toggles that don't do enough and stupidly expensive/unreliable self-heals in addition to having all the shortcomings of the other craptastic sets. Elec gets debuffed into negative DEF and can barely trigger Aid Self. Eng doesn't scale enough with enemy numbers. Fire at least has a dirt cheap heal that puts it in the middle of the performance pack between the suckage sets and the ezmoders. Just pick up an extra attack or 2 and tele and all /Stone's issues are covered. /Inv needs even less. /WP doesn't suffer the fury decay of the weaker sets of waiting for endurance or health before the next set of mobs. /Dark in particular is horrible for this because of the number of toggles, the huge endurance costs of the heals and the craptastic defensive values compounded by the slowness of fury gain due to CoF or OG running (and I say that as someone who thinks /Dark is absolutely awesome for my Scrapper). After giving up on Brutes after leveling a Dark/Dark and a Elec/Elec, I recently came back and started a Fire/Stone and it feels like a night and day difference from the other sets I've played and I no longer feel like a /Traps Corruptor would be a better addition to the group than the Brute. That is, I think, the biggest issue with playing one of the non-ezmode brute secondaries; the feeling that some other AT can do the Brute's job you're doing better. |
I have an elec/elec, and in groups it is effective, and pretty fun. I recently made a DM/DA, and if my tank is any indication, this will end up being my favorite toon in the game. I have a /SD that i really don't like, and a SM/WP that is just plain fun because I can go bonkers without having to watch my end bar.
Each secondary has a different flavor, and requires a different playstyle to get the most out of them.
Set and forget is nice at times, but so is having to be more active in keeping yourself alive.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
I don't think anyone is looking for identical powersets, identical strengths
I would ask that if a set is weaker overall than a second set about half the time, then the second set should be weaker the other half the time... or perhaps WAY stronger a quarter of the time... Or very approximately so. Noone is going to ask for a stopwatch here, but if one secondary is meaningfully eclipsed by others, without adequate compensation elsewhere? That's a problem. EDIT: Again, if EA gets energize, this is all out the window. |
I still believe that they are all relatively well balanced. Some are better out of the box, some don't shine til later levels. However, all things being equal, in the hands of a competent player, they are all pretty well balanced.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
Keep in mind that the devs have previously taken action when an AT demonstrably required pools to do it's job.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
There is a huge difference between asking for more out of a logical need and asking for more out of greed.
Too many in this thread are doing the latter. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Agreed. But some of the posters here need to remember this little tidbit:
EA will have equivalent mitigation to a post-granite stoner when /stone gets a pbaoe end drain with a minor heal and conserve power in the set. There is a huge difference between asking for more out of a logical need and asking for more out of greed. Too many in this thread are doing the latter. |
I don't think anyone sane would ask for EA to be as durable as a granite... unless it were afflicted with similar penalties.
Not even then actually, The set has a long standing tradition of being a certain style of thing. That shouldn't change if it doesn't have to.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
I for one am hoping that EA doesn't get Energize to replace Conserve Power. And therefore I suppose I'm hoping that CP doesn't become the 5th power in the Mu PPP.
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I have a dog in the race.
It's a lvl 50 DM/EA brute, a highly-tuned, 4.5 billion infamy build which can solo multiple AVs simultaneously, herd multiple-boss spawns of lvl 54 rikti to a pylon, destroy the pylon while ignoring the rikti, and then defeat the rikti. And it does this with only minimal risk of dying. Defense is airtight, passive regen is very high, hit points are significantly augmented, and self-healing is huge.
But the way I've got everything slotted, I depend on the full efficacy of Conserve Power to meet my endurance needs without having to rely on Energy Drain except in emergencies. (Because ED is a long animation that eats into DPS.) And frankly I get more mileage out of the minor heal than the endurance reduction, because I typically surround myself with lots of fodder for Soul Drain, anyhow.
For me, an extra self-heal and some more regen would contribute to survivability, but frankly that's survivability I don't need; whereas losing half the efficacy of Conserve Power would force me to dump Gloom (my highest DPA attack) to respec into Mu Mastery (assuming CP was relocated there), or alternatively, to reslot all my powers for better endurance management at the expense of some damage output.
I can't help but guess that it would be a losing proposition for my /EA brute.
I reckon it would be a big buff to most others, though.
I remember reading somewhere that the stats on Energize give it roughly (considering endurance redux/recharge) the same buff as Conserve Power with healing and regen. It's just one gives less buff and recharges faster and one gives a big buff and recharges slower.
I'm hoping that they make sure they get a few fitness-less /Ele (and hey, maybe /EA) fanatics into Beta.
I've never been able to tolerate the lack of health, and while with Ele, swift and or hurdle isn't quite the must have that it is with /EA, I still can't stand not making use of the extra speed of an Ele and stacking up passives. I've tried the builds a few times, they just never really work for me...
But there's a small group of die hard /Eles (and again, possibly also those /EAs) who really appreciate one less pool set and I hope they get a chance to really wring out whatever's going on behind those closed doors.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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You are completely missing the point of what he said.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
I don't think anyone sane would ask for EA to be as durable as a granite... unless it were afflicted with similar penalties.
Not even then actually, The set has a long standing tradition of being a certain style of thing. That shouldn't change if it doesn't have to. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Oh dear...|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
You are completely missing the point of what he said.
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I'm sorry you feel that way.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Just slapped together an EA build in Mids. No P IOs. No PvP IOs.
DEFENSE:
S/L: 41.5
F/C: 44.5
E: 46.2
N: 43.2
P: 21.5
DamRes:
S/L: 39.2
F/C: 29.2
E: 39.4
N: 37.1
T: 42.6
P: 30.1
There goes that Psi hole.
HP: 1741
Regen: 25.1
Less than my purpled out Claws/SR, but he doesn't get:
Energy Drain: Healing 3-30% every 20 seconds.
And then there's overload which bumps HP and regen to:
HP: 2799
Regen: 40 HP/sec
Anyone stating EA is hurting these days is nothing short of delusional.
EDIT: Oh yea... and that was without turning any accolades on.
EDIT: Saw error with Psi Defense.
Be well, people of CoH.
And just for giggles, here's nothing but basic IOs:
DEFENSE:
S/L: 35.1
F/C: 38.6
E: 41.6
N: 31.5
P: 14.9
DAMRES:
S/L: 29.7
E/T: 14.9
N: 11.9
HP: 1499
Regen: 11.2
ED without hasten is a 3-30% heal every 30 seconds
ED with hasten drops the recharge to 22 seconds
With Overload:
HP: 2099
Regen: 15.7
Swap out the 3 recharges for 3 heals:
HP: 2693
Regen: 20.2
And, of course, the defense buff on top of that.
Be well, people of CoH.
ER... I'm guessing that you had PvP on for psi?
With regards to delusions, I'd never suggest that IO'd EA is weak.
I've soft capped a couple, and they're as solid as I generally need.
Back in I... 7 I think I had about 37 or 38% def on my EM/EA with fitness fighting leaping leadership.
But that was about all he had. Damage was a bit suspect and attack chains were a bit off, even by the standards of the day. That said, I had TF that worked on bosses and ET for a "die now button".
Base power levels? Especially early are what I'd take issue with. I DO think survival on EA, especially without fighting and cj are low, particularly as compared to what other sets now have.
Throw the same level of care into non IO'd WP build and you'll be better off.
Sure, base level shields is similarly soft, but it can reach such high heights with IOs that I'm inclined to forgve it.
Again, I think energize (should EA get it) would be a lot. Too much really. Myself I'd front load the heal or throw in some psi def, or maybe transfer some of overload's +HP to the passives... or one of many other things.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Still don't get why EA is supposed to "sneak around." Yeah, they have a stealth, so does DA, and you don't SEE them slinking around all the time.
Anyway had to say that most if not all brute second set of skills seemed some what balanced to me though some are better than others. EA is my least favorite of the sets but thats personal prefrence more than anything eles. As odd as it may seem surviving 5 even conned minions seems more than doable in all sets, even freaks. Should be fairly easy to boost how good your effectivness is with IO's and set bonuses. Also taking Pools is a must for any build, i mean after all unless you spend your entire life in AE your going to want a travel power and the extra defence/resists that some of the pool powers give are just too good to pass up (save on /WP which really dosent need them)
I hate to say it but Pling a character dosent give you any idea on how a skill set works (or really any in depth way on how it works) some players can figure it out some cant. You miss that leaning curve at low levels which basicly teaches you about what the set can and cant do. Best advice is slot up any holes you see and patch em up with Power pool picks if you think its required.