The next problem will be deciding what is an acceptable "Time to 50", and under what circumstances and restraints.
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I dont know why I am responding to this. You obviously are not interested in offering real advice on how to play this character of mine, so please find another thread.|
Originally Posted by m3lon
Honestly, instead of spending $15/month on the game, you can just go buy a knife. Clearly you hate yourself, and though this quest is among the better ways to prove it, suicide is the traditional alternative.
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As far as suggesting I buy a knife? Or that I hate myself ?
Wow, thanks ! Respect much ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I would love to try and solo a defender to 50, and the challenge of empathy/elec seems awesome! Problem is, I just could never get in to empathy, oh well, I guess I'll make me solo project something else!
As far as advice? I'm gonna suggest Zapp as well, even my dark/elec found good use for it, and she had tons of other things to do too! Of course, I did make her back before Dark was a well played set...
Anyway, much good luck! you've got me inspired to try a solo defender. Maybe TA/something... Maybe sonic/* since sonic and empathy are similar in their team focus. FF/* I have too many alts 
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Don't hate me for bringing this up, but I could swear I've seen it said -- maybe even in a post from BackAlleyBrawler -- that the electric dance targets do is only an "idle" animation...in other words, they only do the shock animation when they would otherwise be standing around, and it does not actually delay or prevent any attack animations; it's just eye candy.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
The biggest not talked about mitigation aspect of /elec is the shock animation your targets go through after you hit them. It's not a lot, but if you keep tossing out blasts you can slow down incoming damage.
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Can anyone confirm my impression of this?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I'd say go get Zapp. Telsa Cage then Zapp is very nice against all those lone lieutenants you get in solo missions!
And do use Sands of Mu.
Its available at 12 months, and I wouldn't be advising anyone with under a year's playtime to go solo a Defender. Its one of those things you do when you're tried out the more travelled paths in the game. If one of my friends started to play, I'd be more likely to say "Try soloing a Scrapper" so as not to put them off the game straight away. Maybe even suggest they try a Blaster first for the sheer fun, and then a Scrapper so they appreciate the surviviability and mez protection.
To put it in context, I've had people on the boards say that soloing certain types of Defenders is slow and boring. My first question is always "Did you use Sands of Mu?" Its no more cheating than taking Hasten to get Short Ciruit up faster - its an available tool, and any analysis of Defender soloing speed is incomplete without it. If I talk about soloing a Defender, I mean "soloing a Defender and using Sands of Mu amongst other tools".
if you want to skip the 36 month vet powers, fair enough. I'd solo'd a few Defenders before getting them.
Plus, its a complementary damage type to your Electrical blasts. Good for Rikti (for example) when you get there.
[Edit] While you're at it, grab the Ethereal Shift temp power from Wentworths. It may save your bacon a couple of times, and its cheap and affordable, therefore open to everyone. And I'm sure Healing Aura works while its up, so it actually ties nicely with Empathy.
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Ive heard that too. The targets stop gyrating immediately when they have an attack queued up.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Don't hate me for bringing this up, but I could swear I've seen it said -- maybe even in a post from BackAlleyBrawler -- that the electric dance targets do is only an "idle" animation...in other words, they only do the shock animation when they would otherwise be standing around, and it does not actually delay or prevent any attack animations; it's just eye candy.
Can anyone confirm my impression of this? |
Give him a break, guys--Bio's trying something different and challenging. He's putting time and effort into testing and justifying his stance on defender issues, and I applaud him for it. Not everything in the game has to be measured by xp/min.
As to build advice--definitely take the snipe. I found Moonbeam to be invaluable; range is your friend. Also, it will help with Elec's relatively lacking single-target damage if you lead off against tough opponents with it.
I also recommend Hover, for much the same reason. It helps keep you out of melee. It's even better now, since a mez won't drop you to the ground anymore. As a bonus, you can pseudo-stealth a bit with Hover, especially in warehouse maps; the ceilings are high enough that if you hover by the wall near them, you can often bypass spawns.
When it comes to ancillary pools, I definitely like Psi on my empath. The extra control offers a lot of additional safety against the nastier mobs in that level range. Dominate is a particular gem--well-slotted, it can do as much damage as one of your lesser blasts, and you can use it to preemptively neutralize mezzers and sappers. Telekinesis can be stacked with Dominate to shut down resistant threats quickly, but it's tricky to use; Mass Hypnosis would probably be more practical for you.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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The problem with using it is you can't slot it so it's vastly effective on lower diff settings, and if you have a -def debuff power which Emp/elec doesn't. If something debuffs your tohit, then it becomes a lackluster power.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
And do use Sands of Mu.
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Thanks Folks,
I really appreciate the build advice.
Lots of you are saying to use the snipe, so I will definitely have to incorporate that into the build.
As far as Sands of Mu is concerned, I like that power and I could take it, but as many have pointed out you cannot really increase its effectiveness, so it really starts to lose its luster around 22-26. My Highest level Defender (WarMage, lvl28 Dark/NRG) used Sands of Mu quite alot. But I respecced around 24, went with hover-blasting as a defense and took SoM off my bar.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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If you slot IO sets that grant accuracy (like Thunderstrike, which is generally available pretty cheaply) your accuracy with the vet powers can be improved.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
As far as Sands of Mu is concerned, I like that power and I could take it, but as many have pointed out you cannot really increase its effectiveness, so it really starts to lose its luster around 22-26. My Highest level Defender (WarMage, lvl28 Dark/NRG) used Sands of Mu quite alot. But I respecced around 24, went with hover-blasting as a defense and took SoM off my bar.
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I've got an Empathy/Psi and a Storm/Electric. I tried really hard to make Short Circuit work with my defender, but it just didn't cut it. By itself it almost drains them dry. But most PvE mobs only have a couple of attacks that take little endurance, so SC doesn't do much to mitigate damage. To make it really have the desired effect I had to get SC and Power Sink from Electricity Mastery. But a defender can't kill the mobs fast enough for it to really matter.
It works a lot better with my electric/electric blaster: I drain them and then put them down before they can recharge. Still, the three holds I have on my blaster are much more useful than Short Circuit. PvE enemies just don't suffer like players do from lack of End.
My take on your experiment is this: yes, you can solo defenders. I've done it with every AT. With careful play and the right tactics, I've been able to solo all standard content on my Emp/Psy defender on Challenge Level 5 (except for AVs). Yes, that includes tough EBs. But all that really says is that I know how and when to use purples and break frees.
Soloing is really beside the point. This game is -- for me at least -- mostly about teaming. I solo a lot because I have odd hours, but usually I'd rather be teaming with friends.
What I think is wrong with defenders is the nature of the Inherent, Vigilance. Yeah, it does what it says. But it's too little too late. Unlike every other AT, whose inherents apply all the time, or improve with intended use, defenders only get the benefit from theirs when they fail to do their job. And for a well-designed character, Vigilance is totally worthless. By level 30 or 35 all my defenders have no Endurance issues at all.
And, of course, the inherent won't figure into your project at all. Another example of why it's worthless.
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I hope you at least named the guy Captain Obvious.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Well here is the thing. If it DOES take an absurd number of hours, then it will just prove that my original assessment is correct.
However, if it DOES NOT take considerably more time than other characters I have played, then that will prove the Veterans in this community correct in their assertion that Defender powersets are balanced. Will this take longer than some other Powerset combinations ? Probably. But how much longer is part of the point. And how much face-planting will occur ? This journey is rather a matter of proving to myself what is true and what is opinion. The only reason I started this thread was is in hopes that Veterans will show me some insight on this powerset combination. For what its worth, the journey is still just getting started, but is going well. Here are my tallies; Level 1-6 No Deaths, 1-2 hours played Level 7-12 2 Deaths (Lost, CoT) 5-6 hours Level 13-16 1 Death (Vahz) 3-4 hours So level 16 in less than 12 hours with 3 deaths to Mob types that give every character at these levels trouble (Rectors, Ruin Mage, Zombie Packs). Sounds like the VETS are right so far. |
The hard part is going to be determining what is acceptable for a time to 50. I think it really varies from person to person.
My first Empath to 50 took me 408 hours. My second took me about 150. Both were done with a mix of solo and teaming. As I figured out what I was doing and how to solo a bit better my times and survivability increased.
Again something that could skew a vets view point. I personally think Empathy is fine as is, but I might have a personal bias after spending so much time with the set even to the point of starting an Empathy Offender SG.
Don't think there is a clear number of what is acceptable solo.
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It's an acceptable amount of time if you are willing to do it.
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Originally Posted by Hobo_Healer
Don't think there is a clear number of what is acceptable solo.
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There are two reasons why I am spending time soloing an Emp/Ice defender to 20 (at least), sans Vet powers. First, I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy or misremembering my experience with my FF/Nrg (who did use Sands of Mu, so I also wanted to try it without Vets), whom I soloed with quite frequently until the early 30s. Second, it is something interesting to do, and I will continue as long as I am enjoying myself. One thing I have enjoyed; I can still join teams with the character, turn off XP, that way most of my XP gain is still done solo, while I can break up the monotony of soloing the character.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
My take on your experiment is this: yes, you can solo defenders. I've done it with every AT. With careful play and the right tactics, I've been able to solo all standard content on my Emp/Psy defender on Challenge Level 5 (except for AVs). Yes, that includes tough EBs. But all that really says is that I know how and when to use purples and break frees.
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Defenders do not need to be super soloists in my book. I just need to feel like I can occasionally solo in between teams, maybe just to catch up on a story arc or to polish off an arc I am near outleveling or just to get the last bubble and half to the next level after everyone else went to bed. The game, as is, exists at that point for me, but I have started to believe I have an unusual outlook.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
Soloing is really beside the point. This game is -- for me at least -- mostly about teaming. I solo a lot because I have odd hours, but usually I'd rather be teaming with friends.
What I think is wrong with defenders is the nature of the Inherent, Vigilance. Yeah, it does what it says. But it's too little too late. Unlike every other AT, whose inherents apply all the time, or improve with intended use, defenders only get the benefit from theirs when they fail to do their job. And for a well-designed character, Vigilance is totally worthless. By level 30 or 35 all my defenders have no Endurance issues at all. And, of course, the inherent won't figure into your project at all. Another example of why it's worthless. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I think that an earth/emp controller would take longer.
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
We all know it will take much longer to solo that build than any other set combo in the entire game.
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BINGO ! I could not have said this Better StratoNexus |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Defenders do not need to be super soloists in my book. I just need to feel like I can occasionally solo in between teams, maybe just to catch up on a story arc or to polish off an arc I am near outleveling or just to get the last bubble and half to the next level after everyone else went to bed. The game, as is, exists at that point for me, but I have started to believe I have an unusual outlook.
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Teaming always has been, and always will be a better way to play, achieve and enjoy any of these types of games.
But for many reasons, solo-ing should be an option.
For me, its odd hours. Others have their reasons as well.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Soloing? |
Originally Posted by Garent
I think that an earth/emp controller would take longer.
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Single target damage is the important thing soloing. Fossilize and Stone Prison will do pretty well in that area, and both come with a HUGE to-hit bonus. They also tend to mitigate tons of damage while dealing their damage. Few, if any (Ice comes to mind), blast sets can begin to compare.
The most (only) important low level power for a solo emp is mandatory, and is really just as good for a controller until the mid-game.
Low level Earth/Empathy should be a breeze solo, even easier if you take a pool attack (Flurry is very good DPE for a controller).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Thanks Rodion |
Originally Posted by Rodion
If you slot IO sets that grant accuracy (like Thunderstrike, which is generally available pretty cheaply) your accuracy with the vet powers can be improved.
I've got an Empathy/Psi and a Storm/Electric. I tried really hard to make Short Circuit work with my defender, but it just didn't cut it. By itself it almost drains them dry. But most PvE mobs only have a couple of attacks that take little endurance, so SC doesn't do much to mitigate damage. To make it really have the desired effect I had to get SC and Power Sink from Electricity Mastery. But a defender can't kill the mobs fast enough for it to really matter. It works a lot better with my electric/electric blaster: I drain them and then put them down before they can recharge. Still, the three holds I have on my blaster are much more useful than Short Circuit. PvE enemies just don't suffer like players do from lack of End. |
Some good thoughts here.I overlooked the global +ACC in regards to Sands of Mu. My highest Defender never had the Influence to get into IOs much, in fact not sure if they were even in the game at that point. It wasnt until my blaster hit the epics that I was rolling (sorta) in influence.
He has been riding the IO train since his late 20s and they can sure help plug some holes in a weakness. Something I am counting on with Biospark
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Another reason why Thunderstrike rocks - it helps Sands of Mu hit.
Positrons Blast in Ball Lightning and Adjusted Targetting in Aim will also help with global accuracy.
Electrical Blast is a bit of a pain to slot for global acc because it only takes 2 Thunderstrikes and 1 Positrons set compared to, say, Energy Blast that does 4 and 2 respectively.
Aim itself will make Sands of Mu hit - even though Sands does not gewt the damage buff it will still do more damage than a Defender attack at +50% damage. I found myself using Aim and Sands together like that a lot. You could take Tactics later to further help - my oft-soloing Kin/Elec did and he swore by Sands of Mu as a superspeedster.
Last bit of advice - save a yellow pill (or make one) for the end boss to take him down quicker with the old Sands. 
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for me it was more like:|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Here are my tallies;
Level 1-6 No Deaths, 1-2 hours played Level 7-12 2 Deaths (Lost, CoT) 5-6 hours Level 13-16 1 Death (Vahz) 3-4 hours |
lvl 1-6 1000 deaths 10-20 hours played
lvl 7-12 2000 deaths 20-40 hours played
lvl 13-16 5000 deaths 1 month of play
Starting out on the game exclusively on a low population server, I ended up having to solo my emp/archer quite a bit after I lvled out of the Faultline arc. I would still be playing my toon to 50 if I hadn't done an informal lvling pact with a regen katana scrapper. When soloing, I had to snipe almost all of my targets from afar and could never solo anything higher than heroic difficulty.
It was my first toon on my first MMO, so everything was painfully slow. However, I loved every second of it and every other toon I've built was cake because of it.
Triumph Lurker: mintmiki 50 emp/archer
basically, if you see a miki on Triumph, it's probably cute and it's probably me.
Huge thanks to cuppamanga and all the folks in the mac help forum for prolonging my borrowed time on this game.
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Sounds Very Familiar |
Originally Posted by mintmiki
for me it was more like:
lvl 1-6 1000 deaths 10-20 hours played lvl 7-12 2000 deaths 20-40 hours played lvl 13-16 5000 deaths 1 month of play Starting out on the game exclusively on a low population server, I ended up having to solo my emp/archer quite a bit after I lvled out of the Faultline arc. I would still be playing my toon to 50 if I hadn't done an informal lvling pact with a regen katana scrapper. When soloing, I had to snipe almost all of my targets from afar and could never solo anything higher than heroic difficulty. It was my first toon on my first MMO, so everything was painfully slow. However, I loved every second of it and every other toon I've built was cake because of it. |
My first character in CoH (May '04) was a FF/RAD
After getting into my First SG, I played EMP/RAD and MIND/EMP untill the team disbanded.
Then I decided that I would make one of each AT and rolled my first Scrapper as a MA/SR.
Lets just say, I wasn't so great at choosing good combinations in the beginning.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Thanks Dr.Mike,|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Last bit of advice - save a yellow pill (or make one) for the end boss to take him down quicker with the old Sands.
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Yeah Inspirations are VEERY Important. You always need to know which ones are more useful for your particular character AND always have the right ones for the final encounter.
I ALWAYS stop by a contact/store if my tray is low on any particular INSPY that I know I need for the Mission MOB type.
In an earlier post I indicated that I had 3 deaths getting to 16th level.
2 of those deaths would have been avoided by grabbing just 1 break free on my way to the mission, but I was lazy and in a hurry I guess. I guarantee you that I bought the correct INSPIES on my way back from the Hospital.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Sands and similar vet powers have their own special tables that emulate what the devs considered "standard Training, DO, SO Slotting". This means that in some cases Sands may have a higher to-hit than your own attack powers, and in other cases a lower to-hit. Which will depend on how closely your slotting mirrors what the devs considered "standard" at that time. I can confirm the last-chance-to-hit percentages through around level 20 when I stopped using my vet powers, were nominally similar, as were damage. My personal slotting tended to be a few % higher on the last-chance-to-hit, but a bit lower on the damage, but nominally equivalent. Circa i9 If I recall correctly.
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Hmm, interesting info Linea_Alba|
Originally Posted by Linea_Alba
Sands and similar vet powers have their own special tables that emulate what the devs considered "standard Training, DO, SO Slotting". This means that in some cases Sands may have a higher to-hit than your own attack powers, and in other cases a lower to-hit. Which will depend on how closely your slotting mirrors what the devs considered "standard" at that time. I can confirm the last-chance-to-hit percentages through around level 20 when I stopped using my vet powers, were nominally similar, as were damage. My personal slotting tended to be a few % higher on the last-chance-to-hit, but a bit lower on the damage, but nominally equivalent. Circa i9 If I recall correctly.
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I usually play alot by "feel", so I dont get as much into the numbers as some.
Perhaps my feeling that it started to under-perform was more related to my other powers during that level phase (22-28). Once Stamina kicks in and you start slotting level 25 SOs or IOs, the faster activating damage powers REALLY start to shine, since you can almost fire them off non-stop by then. The longer Animation of "Sands" could seem to slow down your DPS and feel like its under-performing.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Honestly, instead of spending $15/month on the game, you can just go buy a knife. Clearly you hate yourself, and though this quest is among the better ways to prove it, suicide is the traditional alternative.