DEF and RES chart request

anyone got any details on how much benefit a scrapper gets from x or y power in comparison to another ?

is there a way to make a chart of all the DEF or RES bonuses of pwoers for say a lvl 20 scrapper (level number at random, I dont actually have a level 20 scrapper) and put them in order of effectiveness ? has anyone done this before ?

IE: maneauvers vs Active Defense vs other def or res boosting power.

has the same been done for attacking powers ?

Just curious because I will have to make choices about power pools, ancilliary pools etc soon

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I think the problem with this comes because some powers are more use when you also have other powers of that kind. IE: Maneuvers isn't much use to a RES dased character, but I almost always take it on my DEF based characters, and even then its only useful if I am pushing for capped defences.

You can't really look at powers in a vacuum like that.

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I've seen a few very good charts on Enemy Resistances/Defence/Mez Protection.

There's not really any big charts for player-toon mitigation out there though. Mainly because your power choices are mostly dictated by (1) What primary/secondary powerset you end up picking and (2) Slotting.

Your best bet is probably to try out a few powers in Mids builder.
In general, most mitigation levels from general power pools pale in comparison to primary/secondary pools, with Clicks generally being more powerful than Toggles, which are virtually always far more powerful than Autos.

There are few power choices outside your primary/secondary that noticably benefit your survivability.
For Scrappers these boil down to Tough/Weave from the fighting pool (Resistance and Defence respectively, but usually only noticable when stacked with other sources of Resistance/Defence) Aid Self from the medicine pool (very good heal when slotted) and Air Superiority from the flight pool (Perma Knockdown on one foe).

Increasing your in-combat maneuverability can also help considerably, depending on your playstyle (Hurdle + Combat Jumping, Slotted Hover, etc.)

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http://dr.rock.coh.tripod.com

Is one thing some of us used with some blind faith. I think it was very useful anyway but it does only go upto I10 and doesn't include WP or Shield or changes. I think I got sent a editable program which I guess I could of carried on doing but seriously I would of needed some tutorial as its his program.

I think it could be useful to you for formulas. You can excel everything but if your like me and would rather wait for most the changes to be finished with, use this as a guide. (Reverse engineering and putting it all into excel and that, is lengthy work - every single comparison model that people have come out with has been just a tip of a very big iceberg).

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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
You can't really look at powers in a vacuum like that.

[/ QUOTE ]And yet people do so. Many bad builds and unjustified criticism originate from that fact.
You just can not stress enough that you have to look at a build as a whole rather than isolated powers. Every choice has an effect on the "shape" of the build and no shape is equally sexy for everybody since personal taste and playstyle have a big influence on the individual sexiness of a shape.
... Erm, yes, I am still talking about builds... for characters... you know, CoX and all that... awww, dammit!

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If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.

Satistically, 2% def is equivelent to 1% res. However, it isn't as simple as the statistics suggest.

Also, when you combine different forms of damage mitigation, you can't simply add them together.

Simplistically, if an attack doesn't hit you because of your def, then you can't resist it. Say you have 20% def and 30% res. The total damage mitigation is 2*20% + (100-20)*30%, for a total of 64%.

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I really should do something about this signature.

[ QUOTE ]
Satistically, 2% def is equivelent to 1% res. However, it isn't as simple as the statistics suggest.

Also, when you combine different forms of damage mitigation, you can't simply add them together.

Simplistically, if an attack doesn't hit you because of your def, then you can't resist it. Say you have 20% def and 30% res. The total damage mitigation is 2*20% + (100-20)*30%, for a total of 64%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't that be 2% res is equivalent to 1% def?

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L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

[ QUOTE ]
Satistically, 2% def is equivelent to 1% res. However, it isn't as simple as the statistics suggest.

Also, when you combine different forms of damage mitigation, you can't simply add them together.

Simplistically, if an attack doesn't hit you because of your def, then you can't resist it. Say you have 20% def and 30% res. The total damage mitigation is 2*20% + (100-20)*30%, for a total of 64%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok mebbe i'm stupid, but i don't get that.

Shouldn't it be 2% res = 1% def? Because at 100% resist you take no damage and at 50% def you take no damage. (assuming no caps).

I do get that if the attack doesn't hit you, resists won't come into effect. But the math fomula after kind of boggles me.

with 20% def, you're taking 6 hits out of 10 instead of the normal 10 hits out of 20. Thats a damage mitigation of 40% (the 2*20 you got there i spose).
Of those hits that do land, you're taking 30% less damage on those. No matter how many hits actually land on you, each one will do 30% less damage. This is where i kinda get stumped. The (100-20)*30% to me makes no sense at all. Mostly because it makes the mitigation fomula reach over 100% if you put in say 40% def and 50% resists. That makes it: 2*40+(100-40)*50% = 110% Which implies you're mitigating more than all incoming damage. Mitiation cannot go over 100% because at 100% you take no damage. You mitigate all of it. This is not the case at 40% def and 50% resist, because you will get hit 2 times out 20, and those hits will do 50% less damage.

You'd need a fomula with the conditions that at 50% def you have 100% migiation, or at 100% resist you have 100% mitigation. But as soon as both of them go below 100, you cannot have 100% mitigation.

For Defense it's simple, 2*defense will do the trick.
For Resist damage it's simple too, 1*resist will do the trick. But adding them together makes it a little more difficult, because they depend on each other. The higher mitigation you get from defense, the less you will get from resistance and vice versa. Because the more hits that don't land on you, doesn't get mitigated by resists.

Lets say 10 hits a 100 dmg each.
with 20% def you take 6 hits out of those 10. you mitigate 400 damage.
then with 30% resists you take 70dmg from those 6 hits. you mitigate 180 damage. The total damage mitigated is 580 out of possible 1000. (58%).

40% def you take 2 hits out of 10, you mitigate 800 damage.
Then 50% res on that, you take those 2 hits for 50 dmg each, mitigate 100dmg for a total of 900dmg out of 1000. (90%)

So the fomula should be something like:

100*((2*%def)+(1-2*%def)*%Resist )= Mitigation.

20% def, 30% resist: 100*((2*0.2)+(1-2*0.2)*0.3) = 58%
40% def, 50% resist: 100*((2*0.4)+(1-2*0.4)*0.5) = 90%
50% def, 0% resist: 100*((2*0.5)+1-2*0.5)*0) = 100%
50% def, 50% resist: 100*((2*0.5)+1-2*0.5)*0.5) = 100%
0% def, 100% resist: 100*((2*0)+1-2*0)*1) = 100%
10% def, 50% resist: 100*((2*0.1)+(1-2*0.1)*0.5) = 50% (&lt;-- Typical Willpower Scrapper, based on Sapphic Neko)
45% def, 20% resist: 100*((2*0.45)+(1-2*0.45)*0.2) = 92% (&lt;-- Def capped Shield scrapper, based on Envy E'Lusive)
45% def, 50% resist: 100*((2*0.45)+(1-2*0.45)*0.5) = 95% (&lt;-- Def capped Shield scrapper with One With the Shield, based on Envy E'Lusive)

The last three i did kinda for fun, looked at smash/lethal Does not take the regen of willpower into effect, nor the +hp of shield chars. It's how i have them slotted atm. It's kinda intresting to see how little One with the Shield actually does when at def cap.

Also, the formula i came up with there does not take into account that some mobs have larger then 50% chance to hit. It could be elaborated on alot, but i have not the knowledge nor the energy to do it.

(edit: sorry for length post, but i was trying to explain it to myself as much as anyone else as i typed it. Was reasoning with myself while typing ).

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You also need to take into account that no matter how high your defence is you will still get hit 5% of the time, and also there are DEF caps depending on AT.

So the best you could hope for on a scrapper (And probably impossible to get) is 50% DEF and 80% RES and that means 99% mitigation.

Tankers with their 90% RES cap can mitigate 99.5% total damage.

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It's also getting muddier these days with things like Shields' Against All Odds, which debuffs DMG (and therefore works as if it's boosting RES), and Willpower's Rise To The Challenge and Dark's Cloak of Fear, both of which debuff ToHit (and therefore work as if boosting DEF).


...it's all rather confusing, really.

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Is it time for the dance of joy yet?

Yea, past DEF and RES it just gets waaay to complex for me to even bother trying to calculate it

And i didn't really take the def cap into effect in the actual forumla because that would just make it complicated. It's just as easy enough to put in the 45% def cap manually.

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[ QUOTE ]
It's also getting muddier these days with things like Shields' Against All Odds, which debuffs DMG (and therefore works as if it's boosting RES), and Willpower's Rise To The Challenge and Dark's Cloak of Fear, both of which debuff ToHit (and therefore work as if boosting DEF).


...it's all rather confusing, really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Ice's Chilling Embrace did -dam too I think so it was already muddy. Not sure if the old charts on tankers took that into consideration or not

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"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't it be 2% res = 1% def?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, quite right. Miss typed.

The rest is correct for combining res and def though (1% def reduces incoming damage by an avarage of 2%, 2% res reduces incoming damage by exactly 2%).

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I really should do something about this signature.

Damage debuffs can be combined in the same way as res and def.

%Mitigation = %damdebuff + (100% - %damdebuff)*(2*%def + (100% - 2*%def)*%res)


However, damdebuffs are resisted by some mobs, and can stack from multiple casters.

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I really should do something about this signature.

interesting reading.

All i was really looking for was a listing of the defense and resist % that the various powers give. not for alt creation, just out of curiosity.

thanks for the info though.

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[ QUOTE ]
interesting reading.

All i was really looking for was a listing of the defense and resist % that the various powers give. not for alt creation, just out of curiosity.

thanks for the info though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally the only powers usually considered (by Scrapper/Tanks) for additional resistance and defense outside of their Primary/Secondary are those in the Fighting Pool.

Tough gives:
Scrapper base resist to S/L 10.3
Tanker base resist to S/L 15%


Weave
Scrapper base 3.75% defense to all
Tanker base 5% defense to all.

Maneuvers might be taken also to cap defense but generally its considered quite expensive End wise for what it gives.

Hope this helps.

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L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

For an actual list of power you are probably better off looking for something like Mids Hero Planner (Not sure the link, just google it) and you can use that to look at and compare the different power sets.

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[ QUOTE ]

%Mitigation = %damdebuff + (100% - %damdebuff)*(2*%def + (100% - 2*%def)*%res)


[/ QUOTE ]

*whimpers*

My brain... what are you doing to my brain...?

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Is it time for the dance of joy yet?

[ QUOTE ]

%Mitigation = %damdebuff + (100% - %damdebuff)*(2*%def + (100% - 2*%def)*%res)



[/ QUOTE ]

Could prob put in tohit debuff by simply adding it to defense.

%Mitigation = %damdebuff + (100% - %damdebuff)*((2*%def + %tohitdebuff) + (100% - (2*%def + %tohitdebuff))*%res)


There, think i fixed it now.

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Nope, that would be wrong. To hit debuffs add to def:

%Mitigation = %damdebuff + (100% - %damdebuff)*(2*(%def+%tohitdebuff) + (100% - 2*(%def+%tohitdebuff))*%res)

Or maybe its same, must multiply it out.
Nope, I was right first time.

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I really should do something about this signature.

I liked what Sapphic did, she showed how she got her figures and why to her mind they worked together the way they did.

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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

and that factor of 2 goes out the window when fighting foes with greater (or less ftm) accuracy - i.e. things like AVs, Players in PvP, Overseers, Behemoth Overlords or indeed anything except even level mobs.

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Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant

[ QUOTE ]
and that factor of 2 goes out the window when fighting foes with greater (or less ftm) accuracy - i.e. things like AVs, Players in PvP, Overseers, Behemoth Overlords or indeed anything except even level mobs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, it doesn't. It used to, about 6 issues ago, but now it is a factor of 2 whatever the accuracy of the mob attacking you is.

The math (simplified, not showing caps and stuff):

Old system, that you are thinking of: %hitprob = %mobacc - %def

System the game actually uses: %hitprob = mobAccModifier*(50% - %def).

Where the accuracy modifier is 1.0 for an even con mob, up to 1.25 for an AV.

This means that an AV is 25% more likely to hit than a minion, regardless of how much defense you have. therefore 1% def will reduce incoming damage by an avarage of 2% regardless of the accuracy of the mob.

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I really should do something about this signature.

[ QUOTE ]
This means that an AV is 25% more likely to hit than a minion, regardless of how much defense you have. therefore 1% def will reduce incoming damage by an avarage of 2% regardless of the accuracy of the mob.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no idea thats how it worked

Does that mean an AV will always have at least a 6.25% chance to hit as opposed to 5% of a minion? or can you get the AVs chance down to 5% by going over the def soft cap?
Aka, get 46% defense instead of 45% ?

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[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean an AV will always have at least a 6.25% chance to hit as opposed to 5% of a minion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
can you get the AVs chance down to 5% by going over the def soft cap?


[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I.e. it applies the 5% cap first, then multiplies the result by the mobs accuracy multiplier.

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I really should do something about this signature.