Force Field / Sonic Attack - my build for feedback
I think your build is fine. IMO all secondaries good with the FF.
As far as i know, Manuveurs stacks with your bubbles. I also consider Medicine from the pools. With every member in shields you will be the only fragile one in the groups. You can use Aid Self in the PFF.
Shockwave is a good power but if you use it wrong it can be pain for melee heroes in your team. But you already have a wonderfull tool in the FF; Force Bolt. It will become a part of your attack chain quickly. My main FF was first Knightly and when i used FB i can launch sniper of the Psychic Blast set without worries. But sonic attacks more quick than the psi.
Also you can tank with PFF but it requires heavy slotting 2 defbuff and 3 recharges.
I don't think you need any other power from the FF set tho. Repulsion Field and bomb are so situational powers. One has long recharge one has heavy end cost (for each enemy you push cost additional endurance)
Also if you want to adventure alone sometimes, especially ghostable missions invisibility is a good choice. You can say everyone with invisibility can do this missions but this will be a wrong statement. When you click a glowie your invisibility wears off and bad guys start to fire you. With PFF you can even steal villians undies and they can't kill you (they can hurt you but you will never get that much hit).
FF is one of the most fun to play sets for me. Good luck with your hero. 
I'd probably slot the toggles at different levels.
Assuming nothing else changes I'd go:-
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(13), DefBuff(13), EndRdx(25)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(23), DefBuff(23), EndRdx(25)
Level 24: Tactics -- EndRdx(A), ToHit(36), ToHit(36), ToHit(37)
The main reason is that I'd think you'd want Maneuvers to be up and running at full strength ASAP. As a bubbler it adds more to your team than the to hit buff from Tactics. The 12.5% to hit buff from tactics is pretty good by itself too.
Howewver this is based on my experiences as a FF/Son. I have Hasten running and also use Aid Other, so my build is more end hungry than yours, you may be okay. I think you'll have enough information to be able to make an informed decision at level 24 anyway, unless you team with kinetics lots...
The flight speed increase to swift is very very small. I wouldn't bother putting extra slots in it unless you have some particular IO plans. Swift is only really much use for boosting run speed.
I've not got Howl on my defender, I have it on a Corruptor though. It is a good power, but I think if you get it you should 6 slot it. If you are using it as a debuff I think you need to slot 3 recharges for perma -res. I got Siren's Song on my defender. It is fun and very useful solo, although it is pretty situational.
I was planning on getting the single target stun power at level 35. Whether it's a better choice than Assault I don't know, but it is probably going to be more fun.
My FF/Sonic is my favourite defender. He makes most difference to a team of most of my toons, works with pretty much any teams playstyle and is a good jack of all trades ( buffs, blasting, heals, survivability ).
The most memorable moment I've had with him was when I was on a team with a regen who had just joined the team who I was trying to persuade to tank a massive group of reds/purples. He thought we were trying to get him killed. He went in a barely lost any health. A few days later he teamed with me again. I don't think he recognised me but he said something like 'YAY bubbles!' when I started bubbling everyone up.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Hey guys, thanks for your replies. Sneaking in a "quick" response during lunch break.
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I also consider Medicine from the pools. With every member in shields you will be the only fragile one in the groups. You can use Aid Self in the PFF.
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This is an interesting point. I often think about how I'm the only one without Shields around me (with the exception of Dispersion Bubble) and yet I don't too often take too much damage. Perhaps it's just down to the good team. I can appreciate the use of Aid Self inside a PFF, and I've considered it numerous times, but that silly animation always makes me decide against. This char is purely a concept hero, to the point of semi/pseudo RP, and that prevents my choice of Medicine.
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Shockwave is a good power but if you use it wrong it can be pain for melee heroes in your team.
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Agreed, though I don't usually let that stop me from taking a power. What I mean is, I would take the power and learn to use it well, rather than completely skip it based on how it is generally perceived (often but those who don't understand the benefits). So many people hate knockback powers. I tend to love them when used well (note I said "well" and not "properly"). Oh, and a member of my regular team with this char is a /Storm and uses Gale so Shockwave wouldn't be so bad. Point taken on Force Bolt, I'm taking that purely for the KB.
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Also you can tank with PFF but it requires heavy slotting 2 defbuff and 3 recharges.
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This is something I've tried a few times. In fact, only last night I tried to tank the Behemoth mobs spawning in a CoT map while my team (of squishies) took down the portal. I haven't found it too effective. The defense holds up (even unenhanced), but I find that I can't hold aggro for very long at all and therefore don't make much of a tank. I've considered taking Provoke from Presence pool just for this, but in the end decided against. I forgot to say this char is played as part of a regular team of concept chars: myself, a controller and a tank (and a PB that doesn't fit into our collective concept, but is a good friend). So on most occassions the tank will handle the aggro for us.
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I don't think you need any other power from the FF set tho.
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Tbh, I didn't want to be just another 'Bubbler' that takes the 3 bubbles from the primary and that's it. I wanted to make more use of the set, and I was very tempted by Repulsion Bomb (inspite of general concensus on it being cack). I'm very much looking forward to Detention Field and Force Bubble.
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The main reason is that I'd think you'd want Maneuvers to be up and running at full strength ASAP. As a bubbler it adds more to your team than the to hit buff from Tactics. The 12.5% to hit buff from tactics is pretty good by itself too.
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Hmm, I see what you're saying. I tried to slot EndRdx on my attacks before the toggles since the cost seemed higher in the former cases. I think you're right though (as you mentioned further down), by lvl25 I should have a pretty decent feel on how Stamina is performing for me, and where slots are needed to help it. I'll try another build with slightly different slotting to see how it matches up.
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The flight speed increase to swift is very very small. I wouldn't bother putting extra slots in it unless you have some particular IO plans. Swift is only really much use for boosting run speed.
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Hm, really? That's a shame. On the bright side, I'd have more spare slots earlier. Hm, I've just done some fiddling with the designer again. I'm not too sure about these stats so please correct me if I'm mistaken.
Base Fly speed: 136.5%
3 SO Fly speed: 266.1%
3 SO Swift adds: 26.1%
Base SS speed: 350%
So to answer my own question, I won't be hitting any speed caps. And you've answered my other question, it isn't worth the slots in Swift. Shame, I was looking forward to more speed. 
I think I'm gonna see how it goes. If it turns out I have free slots, eg from not needing more EndRdx, then I might just throw them in Swift anyway. Even if it is a marginally smaller increase, it's still faster
Btw, as a general question here, these stats would apply to my char at any lvl, as long as I had even lvl SOs slotted, right?
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I've not got Howl on my defender, I have it on a Corruptor though. It is a good power, but I think if you get it you should 6 slot it. If you are using it as a debuff I think you need to slot 3 recharges for perma -res. I got Siren's Song on my defender. It is fun and very useful solo, although it is pretty situational.
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I might 5-slot Howl now I've got free slots coming from elsewhere: 1 Acc, 3 Rechg, 1 EndRdx, though I originally thought the base recharge was quite fast. I'm loving the -Res this set gives. As for Siren's Song, I generally think sleep-based powers are really cool and really fun, but also generally find them wasteful on AoE heavy teams (note the crazy PB we team with). I might try that on test just to see the fx (or perhaps you can provide a demo?), but I prolly will skip it and leave the controlling to our controller. I don't plan to solo much.
Thanks to both, really appreciate your views. Now all I need are some recipes for Wings, either Burning or Bone, and my concept will be complete Shame there is no way I can afford them in this ever inflating auction system.
Donations very welcome!!!
PS - now you know what I ment by "quick"
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I also consider Medicine from the pools. With every member in shields you will be the only fragile one in the groups. You can use Aid Self in the PFF.
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This is an interesting point. I often think about how I'm the only one without Shields around me (with the exception of Dispersion Bubble) and yet I don't too often take too much damage. Perhaps it's just down to the good team. I can appreciate the use of Aid Self inside a PFF, and I've considered it numerous times, but that silly animation always makes me decide against. This char is purely a concept hero, to the point of semi/pseudo RP, and that prevents my choice of Medicine.
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There is a fairly involved way of binding Aid Self and Aid Other so that it plays an emote ( most of the time ) instead of the Tricorder animation by emoting on a key release. I think it only work on interruptible powers. I can't remember exactly how to do it, but it uses a bind file.
IIRC I have Aid Other bound to a burp and Aid Self bound to a back flip.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Woah, I was under the impression that wasn't possible - something which was recently "confirmed" here. Care to share that bind, Unthing? Otherwise, I might be able to test with my blaster if it works on interruptibles like Snipe.
Okay, one thing in that confirmation thread is certainly true. The tricorder stays there, but the animation goes. So you will have some green.
This is how you do it.
Firstly make a directory called COH_text on your C: drive.
Tnen make a text file called aid_other_power.txt using Notepad. Put this in it:-
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V "+down$$powexec_name Aid Other$$bind_load_file C:\COH_text\aid_other_emote.txt"
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Make another text file called aid_other_emote.txt
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V "+down$$emote burp$$bind_load_file C:\COH_text\aid_other_power.txt"
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load CoH and type
/bind_load_file C:\COH_text\aid_other_power.txt
How does it work?
It makes it so that the V key acts like a movement key ( specifically down ), so that CoH recognises when it is pushed down and when it is released. However on both events it loads the other bind, so it does one action ( activating Aid Other ) when you push it down and another ( activating the Burp Emote ) when you release. Because the second action is an emote it overwrites the animation for the tricorder. I chose Burp because it looks like the Sonic attacks.
It isn't completely reliable, but it does hide it most of the time. The other thing is that it will make you go down. No problems for my character, but it means it may cause problems if you try it when flying.
I also use a similar method to bind pressing the X key to Deflection shield and releasing it to insulation shield.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Shouldn't the second bind be -down to signify release?
I can't get this to work on my blaster (using Sniper Rifle and Burp) so perhaps that particular power is incompatible with this mechanism. I did get it to work in concept, with Sprint and Burp. I guess I'll have to try it on Test and see the result with Medicine powers.
I dont really mind if the green shows, since the character is based on a magical concept, so I'm hoping I can pull off your trick.
Either way, it's an ingenius mechanism so thanks for sharing! I've got some binds that work in a similar way but they're actually for movement tricks. Never thought of using down in this way. Very clever
Right, time to go write some binds for NUMPAD, with each button selecting a specific team member and NUMPAD0 applying both bubbles.
I owe you one.
EDIT: Now that I think of it, I can work this like my Empathy binds and include a teamselect in the same key, so selecting a team member and applying two bubbles can be done in one action. Gonna go try it.
Update.
It seems using DOWN isn't the only way to do this. I tried some binds based on your examples but used simply +/- instead of +down/-down. This works in the same way - ie, it still signifies press/release of a key, but with the added bonus of removing the movement side-effect (dowm can also move you backwards whilst flying, depending on camera angles, so it was a little annoying). The downside is you do get an 'Unknown Command' error in your system tab, but I think that's an acceptable tradeoff.
Also prepared the set of binds to use in conjunction with teamselect, so now I just need some friendly volunteers to test with.
My thanks to the Police Drone round the back of Wentworths in Steel for its assistance in testing
The movement side effect was there to remove the 'Unknown Command' thing.
I prefer the Police Drone outside the Indy port station, he's slightly friendlier, although his sense of humour is a bit off.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Heheh, maybe I should visit him next time. I think this guy eventually got a bit annoyed with me... at first it seemed fine, but after a while I asked if it was ok to try a few more tests and he just blanked me! How rude!
So the teamselect+bubble x2 binds are working very well, though they can get out of synch when lag rears its ugly head.
Here's an updated build.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.151
http://www.onthejazz.co.uk/hu/mhd.php
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Level 1: Personal Force Field -- RechRdx(A)
Level 1: Shriek -- Acc(A), Dmg(5), Dmg(5), Dmg(11), EndRdx(15)
Level 2: Deflection Shield -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(3), DefBuff(3)
Level 4: Scream -- Acc(A), Dmg(9), Dmg(9), Dmg(11), EndRdx(15)
Level 6: Insulation Shield -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(7), DefBuff(7)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Acc(A), Dmg(37), Dmg(37), Dmg(37)
Level 10: Swift -- Flight(A)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(13), DefBuff(13), EndRdx(25)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight(A), Flight(27), Flight(27)
Level 16: Shout -- Acc(A), Dmg(17), Dmg(17), Dmg(19), RechRdx(19), RechRdx(36)
Level 18: Hurdle -- Jump(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(23), DefBuff(23), EndRdx(25)
Level 24: Tactics -- ToHit(A), ToHit(29), ToHit(29), EndRdx(34)
Level 26: Detention Field -- Acc(A), RechRdx(34)
Level 28: Howl -- Acc(A), RechRdx(31), RechRdx(31), RechRdx(34), EndRdx(36)
Level 30: Force Bolt -- Acc(A), RechRdx(31), RechRdx(33), EndRdx(36)
Level 32: Force Bubble -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(33), EndRdx(33)
Level 35: Assault -- EndRdx(A)
Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- Acc(A), Dmg(39), Dmg(39), Dmg(39), RechRdx(40), RechRdx(40)
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Changes:
<ul type="square">[*]Removed slots from Swift.[*]Dispersion Bubbles and Maneuvers slotted with End Redx by lvl25.[*]Earlier and better slotting in Howl.[*]Force Bolt slotted a bit later, but can still chain-cannon if I need to.[*]Force Bubble fully slotted earlier.[*]Added 3x Dmg to Air Superiority at lvl37, for lack of a better place.[/list]
I think my build is looking pretty solid now, though the slotting of AirSup at 37 still feels a bit dodgy. It's mainly down to taking Assault at 35, which doesn't require heay slotting. Perhaps I should take Amplify instead, which would be a nice run up to the nuke.
I've take Vengeance instead of assault, can be a big boost to a team when it really needs it. Once SOs came into play I dnd't notice I had assault really. Vengeance can benefit from some slots too
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Hm, that's an idea. A 2 minute 35% damage buff vs constant 18% for Assault. Is the fallen team mate resurrected in the meanwhile? The planner mentions 11% heal.
It doesn't resurect the fallen, and really its the defence and tohit buffs in vengence that I like. It does heal the rest of the team though
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
I want to make a FF defender had many joys with it on my MM my personal opinion would be for this build is why take force bolt so late? i found it to be a great power
Heroes: Phobos-, Protector-Bot, Shadow of Ra, Bionic Eye, Entropic Chaos, Strike-Freedom.
Villains: Necron Phobos, Khorne-Berzerker, Full Metal Panic, Smasher Devourer, Degrees Kelvin.
Co-Leader of The Echelon
Visit us at http://www.theechelon.eu
Purely due to concept and no other reason. The Sonic blasts are part of my character's concept, so I gave them priority. In fact, Force Bolt is not much in keeping with it at all, but I'm including it anyway because it's a great power.
It had been a while since I had last played my Defender. Until this weekend, I hadn't touched him for a couple of months, namely due to that cursed altitis. But I dusted him off on saturday and since then managed to gain 4-5 levels. For those interested, I thought I would post a followup on how my build above has worked out for me so far.
He is currently lvl26.
First off, he solos really well for a squishie. I don't often do it, but he has no trouble in that department. His attack chain is almost non-stop (especially as of lvl16), and I usually fight in melee range filling in with air superiority between attacks. The damage feels significant, possibly due to how loud the attacks are, possibly because I didn't expect it from a Defender, most probably because of the stacking -res but also because there's quite a bit of DoT and all those orange numbers make you feel powerful.
In teams, this means I can also contribute quite well to general damage dealing once I make sure everyone is buffed.
I'm really happy with how the defense buffs are working out. On saturday my PuG was surging through purple mobs on invincible mishes without a heal0r, and the (crazy) (ice) tank made me his global friend after thanking me. So it's nice to know the buffs are contributing well to team efforts.
It also gives me a satisfying retort when those annoying types on Union ask me "r u heal0r?".
Slotting the sonic blasts for endurance reduction was a must, since the attack chain is quite rapid it's easy to get carried away blasting yourself into no endurance. Stamina helps but once I started running Dispersion Bubble, Manuvers and Tactics all together, I really started to feel the drain. At the moment I'm running slotted Stamina, and endreds in Scream and Shriek. Longevity is fine if I run Dispersion Bubble and Manuvers, but once Tactics comes on, I drain fast. None of these toggles are yet slotted for endred, so that should hopefully help. Unthing's suggestions in this area have been proven in game. Thank you.
I love the sonic blasts, especially since they suit my concept so closely. Be warned, it's a noisey set. I'm not too hot on the sound fx for Shout though, it sounds like steam train CHOOO CHOOOOOO!!!
At 26 I took Shockwave instead of the intended Detention Field, mainly since I have a freespec to use prior to the one we're getting with I10. As it turns out, I really like Shockwave. In effect it's similar to Gale, though Gale looks much cooler and has over double the cone width and almost double the KB mag. Had a lot of fun with my stormy friend blowing Tommy One Eye's mobs back and forth through those narrow ship containers
So I might keep Shockwave in actually.
PFF is great for what it does, but I haven't used it much since those Igneous hunts in the early Hollows levels. It didn't work too well as a pseudo-tanking tool, and I don't generally like running off with PFF when my team is in trouble. I've considered dropping this in respec. Having said that, a less altrouistic player would definitely love this power and it would certainly come into better play during solo.
I also tried out all the other FF powers on Training Room, with exception of Force Bubble (not high enough lvl yet) because I was curious. Force Bolt is great, so I'm looking forward to that - especially since I love Power Push on my blaster. I really liked the animation and sound fx of Detention Field (much easier to notice than other phase powers) but I'm not sure how much use I'll get out of that. I might swap it with Shockwave tbh, which is a shame coz I want them both. Repulsion Field looks really cool too, though I would probably not use it, and I'll have Force Bubble for boxing mobs. Repulsion Bomb was another great animation, an overhead doublehanded lob of a force bubble into a mob, that knocked them all back (similar to Explosive Blast but not as loud) and stunned them. I wish I could fit that in too at some point. No wonder bubblers were supposed to have rocked in PvP.
I wonder if I would skip epics and take those. Does anyone think that's a terribly stupid idea?
Or perhaps I should just roll another FF Defender. Hmm, FF/Elec... I've always wanted to try sapping...
Oh and one finaly thing. Dispersion Bubble is great, but my worst enemy is sleep-type mezzers since that seems to get through. Having a break free handy is, well, handy, for those sleep attacks that chance to make it through my defense.
Anyway, I hope this was of interest to some of you.
On my Def I have left out Scream to take Screech. Screech has a very, very nice -Res component, stackable with your other sonic attacks, and can be useful also against bosses and LTs if properly slotted.
Valid point, but my thinking at the time was both Scream and Screech are single target ranged attacks that do -20% resist. Screech is a disorient or stun (can't remember, but come to think of it, what's the difference?) whereas Scream is pretty OK damage and has a much faster recharge. I don't often find single target stuns that useful in my teams, so that's the main reason I took Scream.
I believe both are good powers - I find Screech to be useful also because it can be slotted with some nice Stun sets, to add variety to your IO slotting
What's the sound effect like for Screech?
Hey all. This is my first real Defender, and I have enjoyed him immensely so far. He is currently lvl14 but I like planning ahead and so below is my intended build for your collective perusal and critique.
[u]A few points to begin with:[u]
1. I know /Sonic may not be the most efficient secondary for FF/ in terms of synergy (eg, /Dark Blast with -Acc would have worked nicely) but this is a concept character and thus the main powersets were important, as was choice of travel power.
2. This is a primarily PvE character.
3. I'm not fully up to scratch on IOs and Bonus Sets etc, so this build does not take those into consideration. Please bear this in mind in any feedback. Of course, any invention afficionados should feel free to suggest any interesting possibilities
4. I planned the lvls for enhancement slots into this build as you see them, so please comment on timings if you think something needs mentioning, eg endurance slotting at certain lvls.
5. Midnight's Hero Designer is great! You should try it!
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.151
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Level 1: Personal Force Field -- RechRdx(A)
Level 1: Shriek -- Acc(A), Dmg(5), Dmg(5), Dmg(11), EndRdx(15), RechRdx(33)
Level 2: Deflection Shield -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(3), DefBuff(3)
Level 4: Scream -- Acc(A), Dmg(9), Dmg(9), Dmg(11), EndRdx(15), RechRdx(33)
Level 6: Insulation Shield -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(7), DefBuff(7)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Acc(A)
Level 10: Swift -- Flight(A), Flight(29), Flight(29)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(13), DefBuff(13), EndRdx(37)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight(A), Flight(27), Flight(27)
Level 16: Shout -- Acc(A), Dmg(17), Dmg(17), Dmg(19), RechRdx(19), RechRdx(31)
Level 18: Hurdle -- Jump(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(23), DefBuff(23), EndRdx(36)
Level 24: Tactics -- ToHit(A), ToHit(25), ToHit(25), EndRdx(36)
Level 26: Detention Field -- Acc(A), EndRdx(36), RechRdx(37)
Level 28: Howl -- Acc(A), EndRdx(33), RechRdx(34)
Level 30: Force Bolt -- Acc(A), RechRdx(31), RechRdx(31), EndRdx(34)
Level 32: Force Bubble -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(34), EndRdx(37)
Level 35: Assault -- EndRdx(A)
Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- Acc(A), Dmg(39), Dmg(39), Dmg(39), RechRdx(40), RechRdx(40)
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[u]Some key points I'm wondering about:[u]
1. I'm not sure what the speed cap is for Fly. Will 3 SOs in Fly approach/exceed the cap? Is slotting both Swift and Fly for Fly Speed worthwhile or a waste? I've always gone the SJ or SS route on almost all my chars, with TP once, but never taken Fly. I think it has the most fun-factor of all travel powers, but the speed does get to me. Since I have the slots to spend, I hope 6-slotting in this way will not be restricted by ED.
2. Any comments would be appreciated on the timing and slotting of Endurance Reduction, in particular to the fact I've slotted the toggles quite late in the build. This is mainly because I had the slots to spare. From experience, do people think I should have been doing this sooner?
3. I 3-slotted Maneuvers to stack with my Shields and help hit the Defense cap of ~45%. According to the hero designer, this gives 5.46% + 23.4% + 15.6% = 44.46% for even lvl SOs. I'm unclear though whether these are lvl50 figures. Could somebody please clarify for me?
4. I wasn't sure on Tactics slotting. 3 SOs seems to give 19.5% ToHit, which approaches the base buff given by Fortitude. Back when I was researching Fortitude slotting for my /Empathy Controller I remember discovering that the base buff would hit the accuracy cap for attacks with at least 1 Accuracy enhancement slotted. In which case 3-slotting Tactics is sort of perma accuracy cap, if you don't consider enemy debuffs. Is my line of thought here correct?
5. After around lvl30, my enhancement slotting was a little uncertain, so any feedback on this would be greatly apperciated.
6. I originally considered Shockwave from /Sonic, because I've always envied Stormies with Gale. I decided to take Howl from /Sonic instead, mainly for the Cone -Res debuff. I think it'll work well on mobs locked in around the tank, as well as stack with my other -Res attacks. Any comments on this choice, or possible alternatives would be appreciated.
7. My lvl35 choice of Assault was mainly because I didn't like the look of any other powers in my primary or secondary sets, and it seems to give a good buff for minimal slots. My alternatives were Aid Other (though I really don't like the tricorder) or Hasten. Both of these would require more slotting. I guess I could have taken Shockwave at this point, but a team buff felt like a better option. Any comments on this choice would be appreciated.
Hmm, ok I think that's it. I thank you for your patience, I know that was a long post - but I promise I put a lot of thought into it before hand