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I may be missing something here. Do you roleplay at Galaxy Girl or Pocket D? I don't anymore, so I don't know.
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No i don't really, I RP with the Militia. We tend to use the canon quite a bit. We play out the story arcs in game, in character. But maybe that what we are then. We are more IC than RP.
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What I think you mean is that no one should be creating uber characters which surpass the limits created for the in-game NPCs.
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No what I was saying in my OP is we don'treally have that rescriction, and what characters do you have that may border line on break canon.
Statesman is never stated he is the strongest person int he unverse. So I could make someone stronger than him, and not break canon. However Lord recluse is the world's greatest human mind. I therefore would think it would be rude to imply that I am smart than him if I am human, as its not my story.
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That's down to comic-book convention. Dr Fate comes from the days when heroes didn't carry guns or the like (and no one would have thought of a computer). A modern day version would summon guns, but then, a modern day version wouldn't exist because the character is too powerful for modern comics.
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Ok then what about Dr. Strange? The original agruement was that creation is different from manifestion, and that the first makes you god.
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In fact, in many fantasy settings, creatures with innate magical abilities are usually fundamentally weaker than, say, a human. They start with an advantage, but they can't learn the way humans can and so the humans will eventually defeat them. It's a staple of fantasy fiction.
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True but then again, look at elves. Elven magic is often the most powerful and only the most powerful elves can muster it.
And with comics, Innate magical beings are almost always stronger than humans, we usually have some kinda of anicent spell or ritual that simply keeps them at bay 
I'll add bits and bats here and there, not necessarily on every single point, just to throw bits in.
Elven Magic: In most fantasy settings, (including Mr Paolini's ripoff) elves are better at magic because of A) a supposed "innate connnection" which gives them a better understanding of it and B) insanely long lifespans, the better to learn and practise more than anyone else could.
For example, Ed Greenwood made most of his uber mages (including his author avatar, Elminster) pretty much stop aging after a certain point, call it favour of the gods or something, so they'd have time to become harder than everyone else.
I think the point I'm trying to make is this thing about will and imagination. Regardless of the actual source of magic power, it takes these things to make it work. Is a human, with access to the level of raw power of a god, going to be able to use it to do godlike things? Can their will, their ingenuity, their mind and perceptions, see and understand enough of the Cosmic All (TM) to be able to apply that power in any kind of useful fashion (or maybe even understand that they can reach that level.) If you accept that magic is limited by the capacity of its wielder, then most wielders are people of human-level ingenuity and power. I suppose an analogy is of a man who lives next to a power station. He may live next to all of that power, but can he tap it directly to power his toaster?
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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However Lord recluse is the world's greatest human mind.
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Really? Says who? Recluse? I think, given his resources, if Recluse was really the greatest human mind (and he isn't human, btw, he's an Incarnate) he would have taken over completely by now.
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Ok then what about Dr. Strange? The original agruement was that creation is different from manifestion, and that the first makes you god.
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You lost me a bit here. I don't understand what you're talking about.
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Elven magic is often the most powerful and only the most powerful elves can muster it.
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Not really. It happens in some books, not in all. It isn't even true in Tolkien.
In the Forgotten Realms setting, which Gideon is quoting, elves have the most powerful magic now, but Elminster can do anything an elf can do, and past human mages have surpassed the power of elves.
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And with comics, Innate magical beings are almost always stronger than humans, we usually have some kinda of anicent spell or ritual that simply keeps them at bay
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Um... so actually us humans are more powerful than this uber-demon. He can't break our weak, human enchantments...
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Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Really? Says who? Recluse? I think, given his resources, if Recluse was really the greatest human mind (and he isn't human, btw, he's an Incarnate) he would have taken over completely by now.
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Says the backround to CoH. look it up if you want..
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Um... so actually us humans are more powerful than this uber-demon. He can't break our weak, human enchantments...
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I never said that is was human made spell or that there isn't a need to call apon the favor of some godlike being to do so. Dr Strange calls apon many godlike dimesional beings to stop demons coming to our world, in which later he will have to pay some debt. Therefore its not a weak human enchantment its usually some goldlike uber enchantment
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You lost me a bit here. I don't understand what you're talking about.
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I was saying my reference to Dr. Fate is that he cannot create matter, he can manifest it or create energy based objects, but never any real ones, as this power is that of a god.What I was trying to get at also was in comics, you have to ask for those powers from a god, as it is beyond the power of a human to do such things. Once you do you become a god. And that in my mind is the true definiton of god modding. That is why i dislike magical characters when there are no universal rules to bind their power. Under your logic of magic, anyone human has the potential to become a godlike mage correct? He simply needs, time, training, and practise. In my sineario you are rescricted to the amount of pwoer you can have based on will, tolerance, punishment ( the wiccan rule of three if you will), losing oneself and borrowing powers from gods at a price. Maybe one of my characters can destroy a planet, but it will near kill him from the strain of channeling so much energy.
I think we will have to agree to disagree and hope we never meet in game :P As we are debating to different things in a sense then over one thing, it may have the same title but it is clear we are not on the same topic.
I think your version of magic works more on the idea of "mind over matter", while mine works kinda on the idea that you bend the laws of physic by calling on mystical energies, and maniplulation of the "life" energies of the universe.
Basically for once I'm the hippy version of magic ( huzah Sarcasim off)
My mom, ( yes I know its embarrassing, but hey i'm young, i live with her and she is a spiritualist) has probably influenced me on this.
In my version, you kinda communicate with magic. The closer you are to it the stronger the connection. But as humans and lower beings we can only ever forcefully ask this to do as we please. Why does the planet grow faster? because i forcefully "ask" it, or maybe even nicely. How can I throw you across the room, I forcefully ask you or magic if you will.If you have no communicate to magic, then it is like an open door, I can ask, get no answer then either be rude and answer the door (Throw you across the room) or let it be ( in which case nothing happens). All life, has thought a naturall tendancy to want to close their door. Hence higher things like destroying a planet require more persassion if you will, or you have to force your way through the door pass a large bouncer, and this taxes you. A god, however, can direct and command magic. He says a want a chair here, and a chair forms. If he says planet blow up it does. And why a robot never gains magical powers. It has no communication with magic at all.
I know it sounds kinda loopy but its hard to explain and I'm not the greatest with words
I do think that your idea of "Mind over matter, or Mind or probability is quite cool, but it is alot easy to god mod.
With mine I always have a price to pay towards the end. But that seems to be the major flaw of all my characters. The more powerful they are the more they are taxed for using the upper reaches of their powers.
Okay ummm to reiterate...
What is your theory on magic, RW? That existence is a big probability equation that magic can "alter"?
Yours Brit?
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Says the backround to CoH. look it up if you want..
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Give me a clue, US site, UK site, in game?
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I never said that is was human made spell or that there isn't a need to call apon the favor of some godlike being to do so. Dr Strange calls apon many godlike dimesional beings to stop demons coming to our world, in which later he will have to pay some debt. Therefore its not a weak human enchantment its usually some goldlike uber enchantment
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Ah, change the goal posts already. Look, if you want to define all demons as being more powerful than all humans, then yes, you are, of course, right, but that's not true in fiction or in game. Humans beat, or entrap, demons all the time, with or without the aid of uber-gods from beyond Eastenders. Quite often trickery will be involved, but it could be down to simply getting a few friends together and performing the right ritual.
You are simply stating it as fact that innate magical creatures are more powerful than humans. Both Gid and I have given examples where this is not the case.
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What I was trying to get at also was in comics, you have to ask for those powers from a god, as it is beyond the power of a human to do such things.
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Let's think about that for a second... well, maybe in some comics that's true, but I don't really think it's the case for all that many.
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And that in my mind is the true definiton of god modding.
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No, mate, that's got nothing to do with it. I've roleplayed several gods at various times, but I was never god modding at the time. You don't even need an uber character to god mod, you can do it with a normal person.
And that's totally off-topic. Start a new thread if you want to discuss god modding (again).
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Under your logic of magic, anyone human has the potential to become a godlike mage correct? He simply needs, time, training, and practise.
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Only theoretically. Most people will never have the time. One of my characters, Jason Caine, is 8000 years old and is little more than a common necromancer. You need the will to do it, and you need some luck and inspiration. Essentially, you're looking for 'enlightenment', and you can't simply train to become enlightened.
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I think your version of magic works more on the idea of "mind over matter", while mine works kinda on the idea that you bend the laws of physic by calling on mystical energies, and maniplulation of the "life" energies of the universe.
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Yes, but what you haven't yet understood is that mine is a superset of yours.
If you get a chance, find a copy of White Wolf's Mage game. There are a couple of versions, but it doesn't matter if you get the old one (Mage: The Ascension) or the new one (Mage: the Awakening). The new one is a bit more internally consistent, but the older one kind of puts over the "overriding theory of magic" concept a bit better.
Basically, all magic stems from the same source, which is basically "mind over matter" magic. However, everyone has their own Paradigm, or way of viewing it. So a wiccan might communicate with nature, while a magician might inscribe pentagrams and summon a demon, and someone else might write a complex computer program on their custom laptop. The results are the same, but the paradigm isn't.
And in my viewpoint, another paradigm might be that "I was born able to do this trick where I shoot lightning bolts from my hands."
It's just a smart way of covering everything in one theory, but it usually goes down badly if you have a religious view of what 'magic' is.
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Hmmm okay I hate you all now, I want a Magic character now! Grrrrrrr
I really like making magic characters for the simple reason that I can justify the most totally outlandish concepts because "it's magic."
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Question tho....
Surely the closest AT to a Mage is a controller?
I'd say its a toss up between Controller and Defender if you want a mage.
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Yes, but what you haven't yet understood is that mine is a superset of yours.
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Actually Raven I think that you have misunderstood mine.
It seems to me that your definition is more of a label. While mine states that Magic is an actually thing, or energy itself.
I think I pretty much get your opinion of magic. If something cannot be explained then it is magic, if it can it is science. If a bunny pops into existance, you would say its magic! But if i could explain how the rabit got there with the laws of physics and reality, you would say ok now its science. Magic seems to be a way of labeling the unexplainable phemonena, and the use of magic is the control over the unknown and unyet detailed forces that make it possessible, until you can prove how it works it then becomes science?
What I am saying is that magic is a thing, its "alive" if you will. In geekdom you could say the force. It is a seperate aspect of our universe that doesn't apply to science, but can to a degree be explained if you tried hard enough.
When I say magic in terms of energy, I don't mean thermal, kinetic, eletrical, mechanical, e=mc2, conservation of matter and all that jaz. I mean a mystical unknown energy that is not apart of the other category.
That is why we can't see eye to eye me thinks. You say Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, but that only really works in magic is a label and not an actual thing.
anywho thats my little take on it, I hope i was clearer this time.
Actually the opinions on magic i have been posting are based on what my character US Angel thinks which is magic is unclassified (in current scientific terms)energies or enegies from a yet unclassified source. the debate was designed (in my opinion) to discover other peoples take on magic from a roleplaying point of veiw. If i was to look at it from the point of veiw of one of my other characters id give a different answer. The reason this all came up in the first place was the talk of robots manipulating mystic energy and tech heroines trying to rationalise magic so that she could somehow adapt it to her power armour. Just comic book ramblings really.
I found my old graduation robe which was a sparkly maroon colour (i went to a strange American school over here!), and managed to make a pointy hat. Still cant get the beard to grow, and when i tryed smoking a pipe i nearly puked (il just put bubbles in there next time). Any luck dressing up will inspire me with new insight into magic! 
I think I said that people wouldn't like my idea if they had a religious or spiritual view of magic. You do. As you said, you're influenced by your mother.
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Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Any luck dressing up will inspire me with new insight into magic!
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I dress up every summer for several weekends, and usually play a mage. It hasn't ever inspired me concerning magic because most RPG magic systems are about as insipiring as... um, a really uninspring thing.
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I'd say its a toss up between Controller and Defender if you want a mage.
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War Crow and Jason Caine are Scrappers, Cel is a Controller, I've had a Blaster. All have been magicians.
I'd say a Blaster is pretty close to what most D&D players think a mage is.
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I think I said that people wouldn't like my idea if they had a religious or spiritual view of magic. You do. As you said, you're influenced by your mother.
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Funny tho, i'm atheist! 
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I think I said that people wouldn't like my idea if they had a religious or spiritual view of magic. You do. As you said, you're influenced by your mother.
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Funny tho, i'm atheist!
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Atheism is a religious viewpoint.
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Religeous talk here?! blasphemy!
Blashphemy is also a religious position.
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For me, magic has always been that some one can do something with apparently very little effort, and doesn't really have to understand how it is done nor do they need to.
because if you understand how it is done it is a technology.
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Atheism is a religious viewpoint.
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Lol you seem to have some weird thing where you see something I write and want to get me into debate of late Ravey. lol. I'm either flattered that you think I'm worthy to debate against, or embarrassed that my statements and ideas are so easy for you to pick apart, and try to disprove.
*shrug* As I recall (and bare in mind that my brain is turning to soup as I type), the 'debate' was that I said you wouldn't like the concept because of the influence of your Mother. You appear to be saying that's not the case because you are an atheist. An atheist (assuming you really are one) has just as extreme a view as does, say, a devout Christian or Muslim. (You just have to look at Richard Dawkins to see that.)
If you want, I could explain how the mechanism I proposed for magic could easily subsume the concept of gods and 'living magic', but I sense you want to give up.
As for why I may be trailing after you and posting, well, I'm trailing after many people and posting, and I'm posting the odd thread of my own. Generally, I go where I find an interesting thread which I think is worth putting input in on (or sometimes making fun off, but those posts are usually shorter).
So you can probably take it as a compliment. I think your threads are interesting, or at least worth 'getting into'.
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Here is acouple of interesting bits concerning magic, technology, and science taken from the "Introducing Doctor Brainstorm!" from the Inventions board.
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It was around this time that he discovered that magic was a real, powerful force in the world, and began to incorporate it into his designs.
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Doctor Brainstorm had access to new, alien technology that was the final piece in unlocking the secret of the Hypothetical Framework. The Framework utilized modern technology, magic, and the Rikti alien tech as a blue-frame cube where various pieces of apparently useless garbage could have their most vital parts assembled into a powerful Invention.
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Now this doesnt actually define magic in any way but it does basically say that magic can be combined with science, and technology in workable ways. With that in mind US Angel's theory of magic has further validity!
No im not reaching for evidence to support my views but i thought the timing was pretty good. Also it gives me a nice ingame way for US Angel to incorporate magic into her armour should she wishes via the "Invention System!".
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I really like making magic characters for the simple reason that I can justify the most totally outlandish concepts because "it's magic."
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Precisely why every character on my list is magic origin
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Oh and raven I don't want you to think thisis battle of the theories. I was just defending what you said about my theories on magic :P
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UN, this is called a 'debate'. We discuss each other's comments and either come to some joint conclusion, or agree to disagree. I believe it's been around since Athens was a city state, though obviously they had to actually talk to each other.
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