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Who said i missed? its just a case of getting past their extra resistance
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Fair enough. Shouldn't be a problem in the slightest with a few critical hits though.
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Same with elude except elude doesnt make you resistant so you can have your whole healthbar which is 75% more health but without the possible 75% resist.
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So "Same as elude" then, since the lower Health Pool and increased Resistance effectively cancel out.
With elude you can still be healed and you have high toxic and psi defense since it's positional not typed. With MoG you dont have any toxic or psi defense and effectively take 400% normal damage from psi attacks.
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Its more to do with timing and point of engagement of most regens that i have seen compromise team, also "the taking one for the team" is a nonsense almost all of the time as there are almost always alternatives.
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If you're a scrapper you should be paying attention to the ebb and flow of the fight. Chances are you'll see a squishy defender or blaster overshoot and aggro a second or second and third 8-man mob whilst the tank's otherwise engaged... the team's gonna have a problem, the squishy is almost certainly heading for the pavement. So what are you going to do? Dive in and cone attack them, start stacking Parry/DA and fire IH/Dull Pain/Elude/whatever. Even MoG if it takes your fancy.
On that point I'd like to see an AoE-build fire/fire blaster scrank two 8-man Carnie or Hydra mobs whilst a badly battered tank and the rest of the team runs for cover.
When the original mob's clear the tank can pull aggro off you, and if you've dropped in the line of duty... Revive or Soul Transfer ftw! (And lying in the middle of a mob Soul Transfer would be better than revive!) 
I honestly wouldn't mind revive being regen's tier 9. I only took it at 49 anyway and I did the same on my peacebringer with restore essence, it's pretty rare for a well played melee toon to hit the floor unless they're intentionally biting off more than they can chew.
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Are regen scrappers normally always flavour of the month?
Are regens generally the hardest scrapper to take down overall in a duel?
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No to the first, and Sometimes to the second.
SRs are often a flavor of the month secondary, particularly for pvp. Dark less often but never seen INV.
Regens are generally considered to be the better secondary for one-on-one melee AT duels. For duels versus a control orientated squishy or a blaster, a controllery-build Dark or a SR with Practised Brawler will probably have more luck than a regen. Inv can cause a lot of trouble with their repel resistance too, when regens will be pushed all over the place without using MoG.
Illusion Controllers can hold through MoG and damage you something shocking too, there's no shortage of them about... Defender and Controllers also get some nice psionic powers in their epic pools. Psi damage is pretty commonplace in pvp (and so are /energy blappers)...
when a scrapper 'takes one for the team' its normally to buy seconds of space, not to tank a mob and hold them in place (although this does happen if the scrapper is so equiped). certainly if i see a fight going pear shaped and i can buy those squishies (or even the tank) the additional 5 seconds they need to bug out or pull it round then i'll 'take one for the team'.
@ExtraGonk
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If each scrapper min/maxxed were to have a list of ATs and sets that could drop it in a fight i wonder who'd have the shortest, the one that can deal with all damage types?
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At level 50?
I'd say a well-played built-for-survivability Dark would take the crown: fear and end drain protection, a self heal, mezzle PBAoE toggles and nice all-around resistance. I can't think of much that would beat that consistently besides stacked, ranged holds or a lot of stacked, ranged -recharge. It wouldn't be easy to pilot though!!
SR next (with aid self) because of Resistance to slow, Positional Defense and Practised Brawler. Accuracy buffs are not that difficult to come by in pvp otherwise it'd be on top.
Then Regen fairly closely behind them because of QR and its obvious ability to absorb mutiple damage types.
INV last, it just can't handle much besides S/L one-on-one.
Using Dark primary for fear or Broadsword/Katana for Parry/DA, the list will be quite short for any scrapper.
Regens can be feared, end drained, spike damaged, -recharged into oblivion and have their mez protection detoggled. They're not kings of high end pvp by any stretch of the imagination.
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certainly if i see a fight going pear shaped and i can buy those squishies (or even the tank) the additional 5 seconds they need to bug out or pull it round then i'll 'take one for the team'.
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/em salute !!
To bring this slightly back OT, the OP could probably accomplish this by grabbing aggro with DC + Soul Drain, using Dull Pain and IH, and ToF/Siphon Life'ing the biggest baddie for the -accuracy.
My Kat/Regen's quite capable of scranking such mobs short-term with 6-slotted DA, Air Superiority and Energy Torrent slotted for recharge and accuracy.
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Who said i missed? its just a case of getting past their extra resistance
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Fair enough. Shouldn't be a problem in the slightest with a few critical hits though.
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i was speaking from the other ATs point of view we dont all get crits.
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Same with elude except elude doesnt make you resistant so you can have your whole healthbar which is 75% more health but without the possible 75% resist.
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So "Same as elude" then, since the lower Health Pool and increased Resistance effectively cancel out.
With elude you can still be healed and you have high toxic and psi defense since it's positional not typed. With MoG you dont have any toxic or psi defense and effectively take 400% normal damage from psi attacks.
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When each damage type is treated the same you have to have some weakness, you cant have everything
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If you're a CONTROLLER/TANKER you should be paying attention to the ebb and flow of the fight. Chances are you'll see THE REGEN SCRAPPER overshoot and aggro a second or second and third 8-man mob whilst the tank's otherwise engaged...
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Edited for reality. Especially with scrappers on follow, either following their own kbs that are directed towards extra mobs or some khelds or blasters. A good reason for allowing a tank to move groups even further from eachother really, but some scrappers dont allow for that, they have already started on the next mob whilst people are finishing with one just to show how good they supposedly are, i dont mind it as an empath, theyll often find out that i am not one of those that leaves the rest of the team to become their personal heal bot and faceplant.
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On that point I'd like to see an AoE-build fire/fire blaster scrank two 8-man Carnie or Hydra mobs whilst a badly battered tank and the rest of the team runs for cover.
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Having to do 2 mobs at a time is unnecessary unless there is an ambush involved, and most ambushes that do happen are completely avoidable as they arent even planned ambushes by the game makers. In one case it was a dumb tank who attacks a group in the middle of 3 mobs and the rest of the team being herded like sheep just up the overall aggro cap but my controller sorted it. Being mind control and the enemy not being mechanical or nem it was fortunately easy.
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it's pretty rare for a well played melee toon to hit the floor unless they're intentionally biting off more than they can chew.
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You are right i must of seen some (some?) ALOT of pretty bad scrappers. As a tanker i dont really want them in the team. I'd rather tank on my terms.
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Regens are generally considered to be the better secondary for one-on-one melee AT duels.
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Thats the point i am getting at, alot of people dont team pvp where i think its really where things are at.
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Illusion Controllers can hold through MoG and damage you something shocking too, there's no shortage of them about... Defender and Controllers also get some nice psionic powers in their epic pools. Psi damage is pretty commonplace in pvp (and so are /energy blappers)...
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Why is it important to be able to defeat everything? And why people on the same side? Hero PvP teams should be dishing it out against villains and only have villains to worry about. As things sometimes are, people can be thug minded though. Internal squabbling can only boost the real oppositions chances 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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When each damage type is treated the same you have to have some weakness, you cant have everything.
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My point exactly. Elude adds defense to everything and MoG has major holes in Toxic and Psi. If you compare the two, you have to conceed that MoG is substantially weaker.
It's weaker than Unstoppable, it's weaker than Elude.
As pointed out earlier, IMO even Dark's self-rez is better than it.
Next argument, please.
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If you're a CONTROLLER/TANKER you should be paying attention to the ebb and flow of the fight. Chances are you'll see THE REGEN SCRAPPER overshoot and aggro a second or second and third 8-man mob whilst the tank's otherwise engaged...
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Edited for reality. Especially with scrappers on follow, either following their own kbs that are directed towards extra mobs or some khelds or blasters.
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Whilst this was fine before the 'editing', I agree it's important for ALL toons to be closely watching the fight.
Most good scrappers I know watch the battle like hawks, their whole AT is geared on Boss interception and killing them before they become a major threat.
Scrappers don't have Knockbacks. They Have KnockUPs and KnockDOWNs. They don't upset the spawn position, that's the squid or NRG blaster doing that.
I honestly don't know what it is you have against regens. They are far from the overpowered Godlike AT they used to be and are now completely on par with Dark and SR. The only difference is that regens mature earlier with IH... Darks and SRs actually get more powerful than regens later on in the game.
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Having to do 2 mobs at a time is unnecessary unless there is an ambush involved
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Or too much aggro is pulled (by someone who steps a few feet in the wrong direction, mistimes an AOE or overshoots their mark. Usually a squishy in my experience, though idiots aren't AT-specific!). Hence the need for the new mob to be distracted while the tank and rest of the team gets the original mob under control and can cope with the NEW mob(s). The usual method for a scrapper to distract a second mob is to engage it in melee combat and throw up their emergency defenses. If a controller is paying attention and has an AOE mez free, then they can handle it. But not all teams have Trollers, and AOE holds have a long recharge.
Jumping in and hitting all your Defenses is a tried and tested scrapper method of prolonging the life of a team, particularly when fighting against damage that the tank has poor resistance to (OMG Carnies, Psi Clockwork!).
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Regens are generally considered to be the better secondary for one-on-one melee AT duels.
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Thats the point i am getting at, alot of people dont team pvp where i think its really where things are at.
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That was in direct response to "Are regens generally the hardest scrapper to take down overall in a duel?".
And it only applies to one-on-one *MELEE* AT duels. That's scrappers fighting Tanks, Brutes or other Scrappers ONLY. The reason for this is that regens get Quick Recovery and two self heals. Against controllers, blappers and ranged damage dealers regen is far from the optimum scrapper secondary.
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Why is it important to be able to defeat everything? And why people on the same side? Hero PvP teams should be dishing it out against villains and only have villains to worry about.
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You specified DUELs which currently cannot take place between Heroes and Villains in the arena.
MoG would probably be better if you were solely fighting one-on-one with a Villain AT. As a rule they don't get many self-accuracy boosts (stalkers high-accuracy version of "Build up" is an exception) and will have less access to psi damage. But right now this is a very, very rare occurance.
In Team PvP both villains and heroes will cut right through MoG, just like Elude. Accuracy buffs are rife in Team PvP, (so is Rad Infection and Lingering Radiation.... bah!)
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When each damage type is treated the same you have to have some weakness, you cant have everything.
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My point exactly. Elude adds defense to everything and MoG has major holes in Toxic and Psi. If you compare the two, you have to conceed that MoG is substantially weaker.
It's weaker than Unstoppable, it's weaker than Elude.
As pointed out earlier, IMO even Dark's self-rez is better than it.
Next argument, please.
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i call it chatting, i use forums to chat, i never argue...much, but its text itll be wrong to read into emotions. I can see how its weaker than unstoppable in pvp, i can see how it can be weaker than elude in pve especially with the other def toggles stacking. Its an inbetweener in that case good for neither pvp or pve unless the "moment" of moment of glory is meant literally. To keep within regen like boundaries perhaps no drop in hp and def only would be better, defence from an adrenaline rush making you dance like a butterfly, unless a regen is regen due to DNA rebuilding extremophile bacteria that can sacrifice themselves to create a armoured shell beneath the skin in order to create resistance leaving few to carry on the usual regen work and having to repopulate over the duration of MoG i dont see where the res comes from, same from resilience.
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Scrappers don't have Knockbacks. They Have KnockUPs and KnockDOWNs. They don't upset the spawn position, that's the squid or NRG blaster doing that.
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MA scrappers storm kick i thought was knockback, certainly looked that way last time i checked, i thought it would be a right pain.
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They are far from the overpowered Godlike AT they used to be and are now completely on par with Dark and SR.
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The completely on par reason is why i dont see a reason why regens need a buff. SR is good once you add aid self to the mix.
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Jumping in and hitting all your Defenses is a tried and tested scrapper method of prolonging the life of a team, particularly when fighting against damage that the tank has poor resistance to (OMG Carnies, Psi Clockwork!).
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No worries for any tank really due to defenders and controllers. I barely ever see a scrapper with taunt (unless my own) that would actually bail a tank out, usually survivability comes from controllers and defenders.
Scrappers mainly lead in ST dps not survivability from wherever i stand except maybe in -fight duration before all the debuffs or controls wear off. My mate reckons impale is good for grabbing aggro but thats only the case if it hits and does more damage than the person getting aggro has done.
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Against controllers, blappers and ranged damage dealers regen is far from the optimum scrapper secondary.
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You think my SR drops blappers easily or even drops blappers? SR has a great edge versus controllers but regens have a better edge versus anything with good accuracy.
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Why is it important to be able to defeat everything? And why people on the same side? Hero PvP teams should be dishing it out against villains and only have villains to worry about.
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You specified DUELs which currently cannot take place between Heroes and Villains in the arena.
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They can take place in a pvp zone, people like to duel with my brute whilst she is trying for longbow badge and almost dead anyway.
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and will have less access to psi damage. But right now this is a very, very rare occurance.
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defenders and dominators have access to psionic damage and thats it i thought, very rare altogether.
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In Team PvP both villains and heroes will cut right through MoG, just like Elude.
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Yep so ya not alone us eluders have little time whilst ganked just as much.
I have 2 regens, i dont like them much but i chose regen over invulnerability with one because it opened more powerpools to me alot easier with the QoL i wanted (which in its own right a balance perk). Also the thought of a invuln scrapper or brute makes me wince despite levelling an SR before scaleable def. The other one is conceptually chosen cos the body needs to be repaired with spines sprouting out and retracting in.
I dont mind regen, i just find regen scrappers generally in their uberness try to race through missions with lack of thought to how other people with their toons need to be played or whether they can keep up, ie they dont see past their own noses. The amount of them that i have to listen to go on about what they can do even whilst the team are getting battered due to the regen already having being such a show off and not allowing for "conditions" that are best for other members. One regen so called great player on a TF would start fights he cant handle, then have a personal defender come to his aid, doesnt keep aggro and so then eventually the defender bites the dust and then he went on about how good he is cos he survived! When it was the defender whilst she was alive who actually saw him through it. I was playing another defender in the team that stays with bulk of the team SO I wasnt about to assist.
Another one said how teams dont need tanks tried to tank infernal and then in his moment of need gave up and brought infernal to my tank, but as i watching this I turned the aura of and XD he shut up after. I dont deny i havent seen many good ones but i do have a couple of best friends with regens that are thoughtful to team players just they are so self sufficient many think theyre great.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Whew, that's an essay.
I'm not even going to try to quote my way through all that, it's getting late...
So we've established that MoG's a poor power pick, Regen's don't need a buff, Knockback is annoying and that there are some idiots that play scrappers. Yay! 
Sorry if I got a bit carried away there earlier, I had a "working lunch" today and was bored...
Last few points, promise:
+ Controller and Defenders both get access to psionic attacks in epic pools. Illusion trollers have some high damage psionic attacks in their primary. Dominators and Defenders both also get a Psionic-damage-based set.
+ It's not just SRs that have a hard time with blappers, Regens will get spiked damage to death if they blink. Blappers will have a harder time versus a Dark Aura scrapper running their two mezzle AoE toggles (Dark's also resistant to End Drain which is a favourite of many Elec blasters).
+ Scrappers of any secondary can scrank a unintentionally aggroed mob and "save the team" if they know what they're doing. If done correctly this can be a great help to a team that suddenly finds itself fighting 2 or 3 times its normal amount of enemies.
Heck tonight I tanked two 6-man mobs of +3s on my Sonic/Elec defender by using Short Circuit and a few Insps, sure I came close to dying when the insps ran out, but I bought the rest of the team the time it needed to finish its original mob and come help.
Regen's aren't "uber". Some might think they are, they're not: They're just good all-rounders.
It takes synergy with their primary and a good player behind the wheel to make them great toons.
Now my Human/Dwarfie build Peacebringer, on the other hand.... he's practically an energy damage /regen with ranged attacks, phase shift, nova and unstoppable. And, well lets just say I'd never suggest taking void bosses out of the game, because otherwise nothing could stop him.
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Are regens generally the hardest scrapper to take down overall in a duel?
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Well played ones propably but that has nothing to do with MoG. Its about having both dull pain and fast recharging self-heal, and IH to kill minutes off the clock. Using MoG would be a mistake as my blaster 4-5 shots regens who activate MoG straight up. Unresistable damage ftw.
Even bloody phantom army would kill a MoGger quickly (PA does psi damage)
Besides melee characters including regens are disadvantaged more or less seriously against debuffers. Trollers, corrupters, etc. The AT balance mostly works itself out when were not thinking about 1v1s.
I don't like the FOTM concept, is mostly used in jest or in negative way.
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You specified DUELs which currently cannot take place between Heroes and Villains in the arena.
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Yes they can.
Ack, shows how much I've used the arena then!
Thought the Pocket D one coming with i8 was the only way Heroes and Villains could arena-battle... 
Have you duelled any /DA scrappers running mez toggles Hammer?
(Running a Break Free the entire fight doesn't count!!!)
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Have you duelled any /DA scrappers running mez toggles Hammer?
(Running a Break Free the entire fight doesn't count!!!)
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I've fought DA scrappers and brutes, I dont remember how many, never lost to one in arena though. I think Dark has least protection of the secondaries against my blaster.
Ps. the Pocket D terminals are for the heroes and villains to socialize in the same space when PvPing - it helps tremendously when youre having tournaments.
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You specified DUELs which currently cannot take place between Heroes and Villains in the arena.
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Yes they can.
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I do have a duel between my sr and a stalker, but mostly i have teamed pvp on odd occasion i just accepted that maelwys was mentioning something new that i didnt know about. I will get MoG one day but i will see it as a nothing left to use, buy time power as i normally see them anyway and find out. From what i have seen though regens are least likely to hit panic buttons as often as sr's especially SR's that dont get aid self. I can only compare regens and sr's by playing them and the whole set has to be looked at at once and not power for power.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
and incase people dont see it on american forums i quote arcanaville from american forums (whose posts have helped me with my scrappers).
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2. Under "Is MoG any good" I would probably suggest that specific instances where its good are:
a. Severe debuffing situations, especially slows and -regen
Essentially, while MoG is, over the three minute run time, inferior to the rest of the regen set under optimal conditions, it can be stronger than the rest of the regen set when the regen scrapper is debuffed enough to reduce the effectiveness of the regen powers to less than what MoG provides.
b. Very low health, reconstruction and dull pain not available to provide quick heal.
MoG does heal to full in a relatively short period of time, even compared to instant healing, if click heals are unavailable and damage appears to be clearly outracing conventional regeneration. In fact, this is often (but not exclusively) seen in conjunction with a) above.
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I think thats good.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Have you duelled any /DA scrappers running mez toggles Hammer?
(Running a Break Free the entire fight doesn't count!!!)
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I've fought DA scrappers and brutes, I dont remember how many, never lost to one in arena though. I think Dark has least protection of the secondaries against my blaster.
Ps. the Pocket D terminals are for the heroes and villains to socialize in the same space when PvPing - it helps tremendously when youre having tournaments.
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oh yes, EN blasters are a pain in the [censored].
low energy res (about 25%), and the fact that IF mez protection is broken, DA is completely useless (the proverbial bag of hitpoints).
and offcourse the fact that DA's top survivability lies against about 5 foes (4 needed to top off hp with DR, accounting 1 unlucky miss etc. calculations have been done by people :P)
So yes, its hard to kill an Energy blasters (both en/ and /en, or worse, en/en :P)
Especially if his name is Captain Freon (bad [censored] slows + /en and a quality PvP'er..... you do the maths :P)
@Shift
Shift 50 DM/DA Scrapper ][ TTL 50 Kat/Reg Scrapper ][ Shabriel 50 Peacebringer ][ Ion Shift 46 Rad/Rad Corruptor ][ Thermal Shift 35 Fire/Fire Blaster
"A Scrapper is a lot like a chainsaw. Somewhat hard to handle, incredibly dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane."
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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Don't take MoG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(no, it drops you to a set % of your total HP. The amount can be buffed by using Dull Pain before MoG)
Do NOT use MoG if you're planning on taking 'Falling' damage, fighting Psi or toxic damage mobs, taking autohit damage (caltrops etc.) or fighting NRG blasters with Aim/BuildUp/PowerBoost in PvP.
If memory serves it's a LARGE +defence buff and considerable +res buff which lasts for about 3 mins, disables all regeneration and healing effects on you (which admittedly can be fun for panicing empaths) and you can NOT turn it off when it's on. No matter how much you want to.
I never took it, and Never ever ever ever plan on taking it ever.
...Unless the devs actually DO swap it with Force of Nature, which would be a joy for everyone concerned!
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Some interesting reads in the links in this thread, thanks Mael, but I think that most people seem to have overlooked one possible solution to the MoG love/hate relationship: simply make it a toggle rather than a clicky. This would mean the power functions identically, with the same recharge and 15sec -regen after it's "turned off", and it would be more in line with Hibernate as a final-tier power as far as panic buttons go.
MoG rocks, If you're dumb enough to use it vs Psi/DoT/Auto-Hit then you deserve to die. If you use it at the right times then you can turn a fight around from a wipe to victory.
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simply make it a toggle rather than a clicky.
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If memory serves you can only stay in Hibernate for a set amount of time before it kicks you out. As long as the MoG toggle had the same maximum duration as the current clicky-MoG, this could be useful. I think it'd still be easily the worst of all the "God mode" buttons by a long stretch though.
Allow normal regen but not clickyheals or outside healing!!
Then it'd be useful and thematic.
MoG is good depending on how you use it, and also as you said with dull pain yo can buff it before you click on it. It's meant for times when IH is not emough to mitigate the damage, but I wish tye'd take that friggin hp reduction thing off of it, the -regen I can understand...
If IH + Dull Pain can't mitigate your incoming damage, you're better off dead!!
(actually... that's what recharge-slotted revive is for...)
Are regen scrappers normally always flavour of the month?
Are regens generally the hardest scrapper to take down overall in a duel?
If yes is to both why do we want them even more empowered? you have to have some weakness. Not often a regen scrapper goes MoG and its not very often one faces a psionic defender. Dominaters with or without psionic may pose a problem.
If each scrapper min/maxxed were to have a list of ATs and sets that could drop it in a fight i wonder who'd have the shortest, the one that can deal with all damage types?
Maybe revive should be tier 9 with a stun.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.