The only passive I really rate is Tough Hide. In my current build I took Boxing at 22, tough at 24 and tough hide at 26. However I didn't take Resist Physical damage at all, leaving me about 10% shy of the S/L cap. Resist Elements and Resist Energies are my last 2 powers to be taken at 47 and 49, they make almost no difference and I am considering not getting Resist Elements at 49. The Resist E passives are only going to get you 12% resistance, meaning the difference between 16% and 28% resistance if you can slot them. You will take 85% of the damage with the Resist E powers at the cost of 2 power picks and 4 slots. It doesn't seem worth it to me.
With Invincibility, Tough Hide and Combat Jumping giving defence, Weave actually provides significantly better protection than the Resist E passives. With all 3 slotted you have about 20% defence against one opponent. Against a group you can floor the enemies to hit. This means that you end up being a defence based tanker. Against enemies like AVs defence is not as much use, however the shortfall can be made up with a tray full of Luck inspirations.
One problem with thi is there are a few enemies that are a real pain to deal with when you have little resistance to their attacks. The worst in the late 20s to mid thirties for Inv are Fir-bolgs*, however by going for tough you will find that Redcaps are nice and easy, an enemy which are normally pretty nasty.
* I actually dealt with these in I5 but as I hadn't slotted Unyielding by then I was probably in a worst situation than you.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Hmmm, intresting. My current plan has TH, Weave and Invincible 3-slotted, so at least I got that right!
Thanks for the advice.
personally i am not sure the fighting pool in worth it, meny people like the extra restance to S/L (25% 3 sloted i belive) but i prefer the more restiance to more things, though for the slots to get tough to a decent resist/ends cost, you can get extra resistance to F/C/T/E/NE, not alot i will grant you (12.5% 3 sloted) but you will be starting to face a wider verity of damage types. and the aprox 64% S/L you peobally are clsoe to (if for instace you have RPD/TI/Un) will get up to around 75%-79%(if you rmove RPD in favor of tough) but you will have very low to most other things (about 15.5% from Unyelding) so for me it is a personal choise, more S/L and much incresed ends cost or better all round Res.
(all calcs made using SO's in sloting in Hero Builder)
Thing is, I do intend to have all. I wanted to know which was more important.
I'd pick Resist Energies over Resist Elements.
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Weave actually provides significantly better protection than the Resist E passives
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um, weave is smash/leathal only in melee range, doesnt give anthing against E/NE/F/C/T, and anything better than a even lvl it will be negated almost immeadly, it's massive 7% (3 sloted for def) of defence i would guess is almost useless, tough hide is better by far offering a def againt all but Psi damage types, the passive give a much mor valuable resist, which even again an av will do the same job, while i will move on tough being useful for S/L resiance, weave is a joke and not worht taking.
having said that, getting the passive resists later is probally a good call, and yeah getting tough is early is probally the only way to go if you are going to get it at all.
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Weave actually provides significantly better protection than the Resist E passives
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um, weave is smash/leathal only in melee range, doesnt give anthing against E/NE/F/C/T, and anything better than a even lvl it will be negated almost immeadly, it's massive 7% (3 sloted for def) of defence i would guess is almost useless, tough hide is better by far offering a def againt all but Psi damage types, the passive give a much mor valuable resist, which even again an av will do the same job, while i will move on tough being useful for S/L resiance, weave is a joke and not worht taking.
having said that, getting the passive resists later is probally a good call, and yeah getting tough is early is probally the only way to go if you are going to get it at all.
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um, weave is listed as "Self +DEF(All), Res(Immobilize)".
oh, ignore me then.
Leave RPD until last to easily slot it all well. Your level 47 power should be a low reward, low slot one as well its that simple. Most people choose boxing but kick can knockback and differs from jab in action so i prefer it on a ss. If you notice on one of the coh/cov trailers even statesman has kick. 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Picked Kick so I don't put my Axe away!
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Weave actually provides significantly better protection than the Resist E passives
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um, weave is smash/leathal only in melee range, doesnt give anthing against E/NE/F/C/T, and anything better than a even lvl it will be negated almost immeadly, it's massive 7% (3 sloted for def) of defence i would guess is almost useless, tough hide is better by far offering a def againt all but Psi damage types, the passive give a much mor valuable resist, which even again an av will do the same job, while i will move on tough being useful for S/L resiance, weave is a joke and not worht taking.
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Weave actually gives +def to all but psi and toxic and a 7% def is MUCH better then a 12% res from REl and REn.
On my toon I swapped REl and REn for Weave(I already had Tough)and the tanking has changed a lot since that, I need far less heals and buff to tank the same foes.
Plus Weave is far better with foes like freaks or Sappers, since if they miss they don't drain your end, while, even if they do no damage or you can resist 100% of that damage, they drain you..
That's just my 2inf: pick Weave and drop REl and REn since they add too little to your survavibility for 2 powers pick and 4 slots..
If you don't believe me check out THIS program, try with Weave 3 slotted for DefBuff and REl+REn slotted for DmgRes, you'll notice by yourself the almost useless bonus from REl and REn and the HUGE difference that can make Weave to an Invuln tanker..
yep and an AV may still laugh at your level of defence compared to its accuracy and hit you with full whack of energy attacks.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Don't forget that Defense might look good in calculations, but it's an "all-or-nothing" game. Either you get hit or you don't. 7% might make a whole lot of difference in calculations, but in-game we all should know by now that it's not fail-safe.
Also, Defense scales with enemy level. Resistances doens't. That means 7% Defense against a considerably higher level foe is totally negated, while Resist Elements and Resist Energies still negate the same amount of damage.
Either way, energy and elemental res are pretty marginal in comparison to what they used to be (almost at the cap). Each man (or woman) does what she feels is necessary to survive, me, I just avoid the Fighting Pool. If I need defense there's always inspirations.
It's also toggles we're speaking off. In comparison to passives. Consider the extra endurance drain. I just don't find it worthy in the end.
Thats how i feel about it! with all minions dead and just the AV left, weave aint gonna help ya, some AVs drain end like anything too. You can easily feel that your survivability has increased but in consideration you must take it that the team adds to it too. When i had fighting pool it was on top of all primaries, i jabbed and brawled my way to lvl 6 so to speak in respec and got kick to start it off. I found often i was better off turning these toggles off and simply relying on my passives. If i got fighting pool again itll be on top of all my primaries.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Replying to both Shannon and Coffee.
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Thats how i feel about it! with all minions dead and just the AV left, weave aint gonna help ya, some AVs drain end like anything too.
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Agreed, sometimes almost nothing in my primary helps though. I don't think many of my primary powers help much against most AVs, Unyielding, Dull Pain and in some occasions the appropriate resistance.
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Also, Defense scales with enemy level. Resistances doens't. That means 7% Defense against a considerably higher level foe is totally negated, while Resist Elements and Resist Energies still negate the same amount of damage.
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Not quite the way I would put it, but yes, against high level enemies and high ranks, defence is less useful than resistance.
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..... If I need defense there's always inspirations.
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The AV kit I carry around on my tank is about 4-5 respites, 1 awaken and the rest Lucks. Normally 2 stacked at once allows a pretty long fight time.
The reason for taking Weave is to slightly improve my defences such that I don't need inspirations for the non-AV fights. So when I come to the AV, my inspiration tray has everything I need to defeat the AV.
You can use DrRocks Damage Comparison program to check this by altering the Group composition to 1 AV and nothing else. Using a +4 AV Weave is about half as good against an Energy AV than the passive, 40 without either Weave or RE, 43.8 with Weave and 47 with the Passive. However against 5 +4 enemies in the ratio of 4:2:1 of minions/bosses and lts the damage is the same at about 78 versus 68 with neither.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Yes it all really depends on what you are building to fight, or whether you are building across the board.
What you gain on the passives against an energy AV you lose on not taking Weave against a psi AV. To be honest 12% resistance or 7% defence isn't going to make a lot of difference either way against an AV.
Small note on Unthing's suggestion about setting ratio to 1 AV. Since I added fear powers you can't reduce minions to 0 without getting an error. Fixed in the next patch.
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Replying to both Shannon and Coffee.
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Thats how i feel about it! with all minions dead and just the AV left, weave aint gonna help ya, some AVs drain end like anything too.
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Agreed, sometimes almost nothing in my primary helps though. I don't think many of my primary powers help much against most AVs, Unyielding, Dull Pain and in some occasions the appropriate resistance.
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According to Mother Mayhem all you are is a bunch of healthpoints with slight regen capability, meagre defence and an insp tray (lucks are good here), Against other AV's your resists can help and ill much rather Rel and Ren stacking to unyielding how they do to increase my survivability than have weave which wont matter.
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..... If I need defense there's always inspirations.
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The AV kit I carry around on my tank is about 4-5 respites, 1 awaken and the rest Lucks. Normally 2 stacked at once allows a pretty long fight time.
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doing one of my solo AV tests (i call it revision) i stacked absolutely loads of lucks against lvl 52 babbage and it didnt matter as he didnt miss (defence meant nothing).
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The reason for taking Weave is to slightly improve my defences such that I don't need inspirations for the non-AV fights. So when I come to the AV, my inspiration tray has everything I need to defeat the AV.
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In my case i only find AV's and GM's a real challenge to tank and i dont have weave. The rest of the game i am absolutely 100% sure i dont need to worry about, poor teamplayers i worry about more, often with a good team i dont even need to touch my insp tray and shouldnt have to until an AV is reached. Firstly i must be allowed to tank how i like to tank, not how other people expect me to tank. If i am having to play my tanker like i see 90% of other tanks play ill get my scrapper (i get most moody).
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You can use DrRocks Damage Comparison program to check this by altering the Group composition to 1 AV and nothing else. Using a +4 AV Weave is about half as good against an Energy AV than the passive, 40 without either Weave or RE, 43.8 with Weave and 47 with the Passive. However against 5 +4 enemies in the ratio of 4:2:1 of minions/bosses and lts the damage is the same at about 78 versus 68 with neither.
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Every AV is different, you can respec to be the most uber of tanks and still end up dead in seconds. I've said it before, someone can have a stone tank and die sooner than a invuln purely cos of how they tanked. You can tank to keep the minions about the AV at +4 lvl to add to your defence but i would say your life expectancy still aint good. They take longer to kill and so you are in the fight for longer and their is always a chance to get hit.
i am on my 6th build as my tank ive tried alot and hated alot, somethings havent brought me the gratification as they might others but here is a "quick"(as i normally think over 2 weeks literally) complete build that i may suggest as a "guideline" towards an uber build if u were an invuln/superstrength and liked the sustainable damage stuff:
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Exported from Ver: 1.7.2.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://home.comcast.net/~SherkSilver/index.html)
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Name:
Level: 49
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Invulnerability
Secondary: Super Strength
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01) --> Temp Invulnerability==> DmgRes(1) DmgRes(7) DmgRes(7) EndRdx(46)
01) --> Jab==> Acc(1) EndRdx(11)
02) --> Dull Pain==> Rechg(2) Rechg(3) Rechg(3) Heal(5) Heal(5) Heal(15)
04) --> Taunt==> Taunt(4) Rechg(13) Rechg(13)
06) --> Kick==> Acc(6) EndRdx(11)
08) --> Unyielding==> DmgRes(8) DmgRes(9) DmgRes(9) EndRdx(48) Rechg(46)
10) --> Hasten==> Rechg(10) Rechg(15) Rechg(43)
12) --> Hurdle==> Jump(12)
14) --> Super Speed==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Health==> Heal(16) Heal(17) Heal(17)
18) --> Invincibility==> DefBuf(18) DefBuf(19) DefBuf(19) Taunt(50)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(21) EndMod(21)
22) --> Haymaker==> Acc(22) EndRdx(23) Rechg(23) Dmg(33) Dmg(34) Dmg(34)
24) --> Tough==> EndRdx(24) EndRdx(25) EndRdx(25) DmgRes(36) DmgRes(36) DmgRes(37)
26) --> Weave==> EndRdx(26) EndRdx(27) EndRdx(27) DefBuf(33) DefBuf(33) DefBuf(34)
28) --> Knockout Blow==> Acc(28) Acc(29) EndRdx(29) Dmg(31) Dmg(37) Dmg(37)
30) --> Tough Hide==> DefBuf(30) DefBuf(31) DefBuf(31)
32) --> Unstoppable==> Rechg(32) Rechg(45) Rechg(46)
35) --> Hurl==> Acc(35) EndRdx(36) Range(40) Dmg(42) Dmg(43) Dmg(43)
38) --> Foot Stomp==> Acc(38) EndRdx(39) Rechg(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(40) Dmg(40)
41) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(41) Rechg(42) Rechg(42)
44) --> Resist Elements==> DmgRes(44) DmgRes(45) DmgRes(45)
47) --> Resist Energies==> DmgRes(47) DmgRes(48) DmgRes(48)
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01) --> Sprint==> EndRdx(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Acc(1)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Rechg(2)
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at 49 i either would get resist physical damage but i would be tempted to get rage, rage can either add to your survivability or get you killed, it has a 28 - 30 point end drop as it comes off, if thats all you have left then your toggles will drop. Using it correctly can add to your survivability and incorrectly will get you killed.
the idea of recharge on unyielding is one of my babies, its an idea i have never seen elsewhere on any guide it makes unstop crash to recovery better (2 recharges would be ideal). i have other babies but i just aint willing to spill. With my builds timing is crucial to survival.
Nothing and i mean nothing can ever replace personal experience no matter what people say about what changes they would make. I like the idea of people altering things, not making carbon copies and then playing the way they like to. I had hurl, i was advised air superiority so i respec'd it in, hated it and now i got back hurl. It may well be good to have a handclap to aid self combo move to add survivability if its all slotted right for all i know.
There maybe times when you may need to turn toggles like tough off to help your survivability. Your acc may often get debuffed (i have foc acc ingame). I think the above build aint too bad pvp though. For bloody bay it aint good but after that it should be ok i think.
Note:
The above build i dont even have, need or want, it wont solve all your problems (no build does) its just a guide waiting to be personalised by anyone by that i mean altered to suit.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Nothing and i mean nothing can ever replace personal experience no matter what people say about what changes they would make. I like the idea of people altering things, not making carbon copies and then playing the way they like to. I had hurl, i was advised air superiority so i respec'd it in, hated it and now i got back hurl. It may well be good to have a handclap to aid self combo move to add survivability if its all slotted right for all i know.
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Appreciate the guide, I can't say I agree with it completely. It's seems very much like a pure respec build to me.
Experience at all levels matter. Air Superiority comes at level 6. Hurl a lot later. I recommend Air Superioriy throughout the first 30 levels really. Especially over, let's say Punch.
Also? Skipping RPD? 7.5% Base isn't something you sneeze at, for a power that costs you absolutely nothing. Pick it up early, real early.
Just some comments.
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Appreciate the guide, I can't say I agree with it completely. It's seems very much like a pure respec build to me.
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i dont either and yes it is a kind of respec build
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Experience at all levels matter. Air Superiority comes at level 6. Hurl a lot later. I recommend Air Superioriy throughout the first 30 levels really. Especially over, let's say Punch.
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agreed
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Also? Skipping RPD? 7.5% Base isn't something you sneeze at, for a power that costs you absolutely nothing. Pick it up early, real early.
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Being that an invuln has more smash and lethal resist than anyother tanker and yet other tanks manage i left it out as its imo the most optional power seeing as you have tough and therefore i didnt finish lvl 49 off. I would never endorse any build as the "best build" to have. In all the minning and maxxing people can forget to learn to play the part of a tanker.
its only a "guide". Its a build for uberness that i wont bother with and took me 5-10 mins to create. But i have experienced a build similar to it. Even with the attacks my build isnt slotted the same as its more personalised to suit me (i value other secondary effects). No matter how you do things weaknesses have to remain thats why we wont see a level 60.
I will say as i have always said these uberbuilds wont necessarily make a better tanker out of anyone. I personally find having all the primaries like i have is all i need and yes i have tanked everything im getting close to 1000 hours now, non uber builds do work.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I won't argue too much with you, but for the sake of it I must debate this a little. Or at least make myself clear.
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being that an invuln has more smash and lethal resist than anyother tanker and yet other tanks manage i left it out as its imo the most optional power seeing as you have tough and therefore i didnt finish lvl 49 off.
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Other Tankers that have a pure S/L Resist armor is: Fire Tankers. And that's it. And, for those who do put all the eggs in one basket: Stone Tankers and their Granite Armor.
From personal experience, I would say that your primary powerset is more than enough for your regular soloplay.
To compare with the days before I4 when tankers invited 7 people, spawned an 8 player mission and then kicked out the other people.
What Cryptic decided to do was to go out on a limb IMHO, and I'm not really fond of having my character cut by his knees (and then the waist) but it works as it seems. If I want more resistances or defense than those that my powerset can give, I team up with someone.
Basicly, what it all comes down to is: The Days of "überness" (reluctant to even use that word) is gone. The cards have been shuffled and dealt. No more number crunching to hit the caps in the most efficient way, because we won't hit them.
Personally, I prefer to get the most of my primary rather than relying on power pools, but that's just me. It's a contradiction, because I am by heart a powergamer and would prefer the perfect most well calculated build. But I also believe that the intent should be to create a Tanker, without having to resort to power pools.
The day I discover Tough is a complete must-have, that day I lay my tanker to rest.
lol i agree with you its merely a guide for those that wont! My actual final build has all 9 primaries and 8 i wish could be 9 secondaries, it works for me but may not work for others especially as timing and experience is crucial. No matter what people post saying "here it is the way not to be a scranker" (which i havent) i am most happy with my actual build. My personal build is no good to no one but me and i would never post it, this post is just a guide for people who like sustainable damage thing and to be fiddled with to suit themselves as we all have our preferences.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
With what i have read defence is soon going to be scaleable so it maybe that getting tough and weave maybe theoretically better than taking passives however i'd still take the lot
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The day I discover Tough is a complete must-have, that day I lay my tanker to rest.
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I agree. It isn't a must have. The way I see it, the Boxing / Tough / Weave vs Resist Damage / Resist Elements / Resist Energies choice is one that is a close one and is about trade offs.
I wouldn't have got it if I didn't think Weave was worth it too. It is a trade off between slightly better defences and worse endurance. More Endurance can be equated with offence, even if it is just that you can swap a endurance reducer for recharge in the best attacks.
My tank was always defensively minded. I have 7 out of the 9 powers in the primary and 6 of the secondary, one of which ( scorch ) is unslotted and rarely used.
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From personal experience, I would say that your primary powerset is more than enough for your regular soloplay.
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I would totally agree with you for soloplay. It's only when up against a few choice enemies type that the primary is inadequate and I don't think the Fighting pool helps here either.
In teamplay the extra defences really only help because they let you go that 10% extra when you don't have the backup. In a balanced team with sensible enemies ( 0 - +3s ) I think the primary works as well as soloplay. For me I took the extra defences because I spent a lot of my time teaming with blaster heavy teams.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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I wouldn't have got it if I didn't think Weave was worth it too. It is a trade off between slightly better defences and worse endurance. More Endurance can be equated with offence, even if it is just that you can swap a endurance reducer for recharge in the best attacks.
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until i7 defence is unscaleable i have a super reflex so i valued resists/defence through feel and the fact you cant really measure how often you are not hit.
If you add a endurance enhancer and lose a recharge you lose on a use of an attack over time (less offence) or add a recharge and lose an endurance enhancer you can lose use of any attacks over time (less offence) but hopefully they are all dead by then.
My point being in every strength lies a weakness and i often wonder if what looks like bad slotting is in actual fact good slotting.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I'm hoping to respec my Inv soon, but with him only being 26, I can't see how I can fit in Resist El/En and Kick+Tough.
Which is more important at this early stage? I really don't know, although I know the powers.