Sirens Call - why add buff/debuff missions?
By
confess,
Posted on: 2006-01-01 12:52 in Everything about PvP
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Um... right.
I still don't get why it's such an issue. Sorry.
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'cause it's a darned nuisance it is.
You have all these people that just come in and do the missions and those of us really PVP'ing have to suffer and don't dare go and bonk one of the missioners on the head, then they start crying mommy. 
Ok, I'm in a bad mood, I REALLY haven't had a good start to the new year, but I still think it's not cool to do that to Sirens.
The debt we get in there fighting at hot spots is bad enough, no need to go and make it harder.
Besides I doubt if it'll attract more pple to pvp, it's really just the missions those one's are after, if I go into a PVP zone it's not to do missions, it's to bonk heroes / villians over the head... or at least to annoy them endlessly and GET bonked over the head 
What's missions got to do with PVP anyway?
*humph*
There shouldn't be missions inside places, if they want missions in PVP then they should be outside so the opposition can bonk them over the head repeatedly for trying to debuff them.
That'd be PVP, an instanced mish that the oppostition can't enter and stop whoever from doing whatever doesn't seem to have much to do with pvp to me.
I wouldn't mind if I knew which mission would buff my sides damage again! It's not hard to do some missions yourself to sort it out. Well, in theory anyway.
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I know! I was happily doing the buff damage mission with my alt when i got a tell from a villan saying that i was actually debuffing the damage. First i thought he was joking but soon realised he wasn't since everyone started saying it. Imo this is a game breaking bug, from the hero side of course. You villains can laugh it up!
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Definately is from the hero side. And that villain was actually me, I switched sides in the hope that the debuff hero damage would actually buff it....no such luck though.
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I do think the debuffs are a bit extreme. Yesterday I was using Build Up with Bonesmasher and could hardly hurt a corruptor!
Oh, and Happy Birthday Botty!
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Know what you mean, build up, AS followed by impale couldnt take down a controller for me the other day
and thanks 
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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I wouldn't mind if I knew which mission would buff my sides damage again! It's not hard to do some missions yourself to sort it out. Well, in theory anyway.
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I know! I was happily doing the buff damage mission with my alt when i got a tell from a villan saying that i was actually debuffing the damage. First i thought he was joking but soon realised he wasn't since everyone started saying it. Imo this is a game breaking bug, from the hero side of course. You villains can laugh it up!
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Definately is from the hero side. And that villain was actually me, I switched sides in the hope that the debuff hero damage would actually buff it....no such luck though.
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That would be because you aren't doing enough buff missions on the hero side. I explained it above. I know I don't PvP very much, but that doesn't mean you should just ignore what I'm writing. 
As for "crying to mommy", comments like that are what make people uninterested in PvP. The attitude of the players has an annoying habit of being "Ha! Pwnd U N00b" even when they aren't actually saying that, if the person they just splattered is anything other than a regular PvPer. That sentiment is exactly how this thread started out, and it's how it is continuing, apparently. "If you don't want to PvP, get the **** out of our Zones." Sorry, they put those missions in so you guys could have someone who doesn't know what they're doing to kill. Rejoice in them! I know the Stalker I saw in Sirens a couple of days ago does. He was camping the hero base waiting for people to walk out all unawares.
Oh, and like I said above, in Warburg, hero damage is always debuffed, usually by around 10-20%. That's what the villains do and heroes don't work hard enough against it. I'd imagine that Sirens will operate similarly.
Personally, I'd be happy to see those missions removed, but I think they'd have to replace them with something else. No one in their right mind actually does the main mission in Warburg. If you want a nuclear blast to play with (and who would) it's easier to camp the base and steal the codes... well, it would be if everyone hadn't been put off it early on by people camping the base... 
Face it, guys, PvP is a minority sport somewhat like RP (at least on CoH). The only difference is that Korea cares not for RP and won't even look at a game without PvP. I haven't been to Bloody Bay recently, but the sampled populations of Warburg and Siren's Call on Union would suggest that, without some form of special event, those zones are massively under-utilised. If they have no PvE content, they become white elephants, like the Arenas.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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As for "crying to mommy", comments like that are what make people uninterested in PvP. The attitude of the players has an annoying habit of being "Ha! Pwnd U N00b" even when they aren't actually saying that, if the person they just splattered is anything other than a regular PvPer.
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Totally agree with that, I really enjoy PvP and spend some time in Sirens most days, but when I get annoying people of the 'HAHA Pwnd N00b' type, I just get to [censored] off to play. It especially seems to be Stalkers who act like this. (Note: Not saying all Stalkers, I know plenty of good Stalkers who are fun to play against)
You know what? I was very wary about PvP being introduced to the game. Not because I don't like it, but because I happened to enjoy the game just as it was.
Afterwards, I started to see a divide forming. People complaining about PvP being "forced" on them, others complaining about PvEers being in "their" zone when they didn't want to PvP. And it's just getting worse.
You know what? We all pay to play this game, we all have a right to enjoy it. Fair enough, there's an aspect you don't like about the game, make your complaint/suggestion rationally and logically.
On Union, active PvPers seem to be about as common as active roleplayers. Roleplayers don't get anything to improve the game just for them, I honestly doubt PvPers will have any major changes done for them alone, either.
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It especially seems to be Stalkers who act like this.
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Stalkers are a ganker's dream. Pick the right sets, build up some levels, do a respec, you have a character that can one or two shot anything. That kind of power is, quite frankly, bound to go the PKers' head, and PKers are the kind of people who give PvP a bad name.
Clearly not all Stalkers are like this. I have a Stalker and I'm not interested in PvP. 
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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On Union, active PvPers seem to be about as common as active roleplayers. Roleplayers don't get anything to improve the game just for them, I honestly doubt PvPers will have any major changes done for them alone, either.
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They are going to get a whole new zone to play in, mate. Recluse's Victory is coming in I7 (almost certainly). If that isn't an improvement 'just for them', I don't know what is...
Well, except I guess they'll put some of those annoying PvE missions in there.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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As for "crying to mommy", comments like that are what make people uninterested in PvP. The attitude of the players has an annoying habit of being "Ha! Pwnd U N00b" even when they aren't actually saying that, if the person they just splattered is anything other than a regular PvPer. That sentiment is exactly how this thread started out, and it's how it is continuing, apparently. "If you don't want to PvP, get the **** out of our Zones." Sorry, they put those missions in so you guys could have someone who doesn't know what they're doing to kill. Rejoice in them! I know the Stalker I saw in Sirens a couple of days ago does. He was camping the hero base waiting for people to walk out all unawares.
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Only you seems to be of the sentiment that people in the PVP zones think it should be exclusive to PVPers and they deride PVErs who come in. This is not the case but it is a PVP zone and if you get killed on the way to get a boost from the high XP missions you shouldnt get upset, the abuse PVPers can get for killing a PVEr on the way to a mission is easily as bad as the very few bad apples who do trash talk across the broadcasts. (sadly it is usually stalkers)
I would thank you NOT to presume to tell me the sentiment in which I started my own thread as I am a very inclusive person who speaks to all I see who comes into Sirens call and try to get all involved. Anyone who knows me will know I speak to all, laugh with all and have a great time with great people in Sirens call.
The sentiment is simply this, I see no reason why people who do not PVP should (through no fault of their own) affect the PVP balance. My sentiment was that the devs have made the zone flawed (IMO) by adding the buff/debuff missions.
You are right PVP is a small minority but thats no reason why our game should be influenced by those not participating in it, imagine the outcry if COH/COV missions debuffed the opposing sides PVE powers? I dont want the zones to become like the dead arenas as I enjoy them, missions with higher XP are a good way to get people in and perhaps sample the PVP game but my ONLY POINT is that I dont see why their actions should affect a game (PVP) that they are not playing.
I am NOT saying PVErs should stay out, I am NOT saying they shouldnt do the missions so they dont upset the PVPers, I AM saying that I dont think the DEVS have it right. My rant is purely developmental and not against ANY players
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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As for "crying to mommy", comments like that are what make people uninterested in PvP. The attitude of the players has an annoying habit of being "Ha! Pwnd U N00b" even when they aren't actually saying that, if the person they just splattered is anything other than a regular PvPer.
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Totally agree with that, I really enjoy PvP and spend some time in Sirens most days, but when I get annoying people of the 'HAHA Pwnd N00b' type, I just get to [censored] off to play. It especially seems to be Stalkers who act like this. (Note: Not saying all Stalkers, I know plenty of good Stalkers who are fun to play against)
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Okay, wasn't my intention to come across as a Pwayg90ah... o whatever the right l33t speak is for "I owned you you noob"
Me not being in a good mood doesn't help much though.
Let me retry then.
What I mean is that instanced missions are not helping in promoting PVP, just the zone.
I think what I suggested in the suggestion thread brings it up nicely.
What I meant with "crying to mommy" is all the threads I've previously read about people ranting on here that they didn't want to pvp and we're only there for the missions.
Which is really annoying, since their farming of xp on the missions is causing us PVP'ers (now Siren's too) to get de-/buffed.
None or very few of the people actually PVP'ing go and do the missions, if i'm there I'm more interested in going up against the opposition that doing instanced misshies.
I hope that comes across better than my original post.
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I would thank you NOT to presume to tell me the sentiment in which I started my own thread
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From your opening post:
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the damn devs mess with our builds all the time in the name of "balancing" so why give people who dont pvp the opportunity to interfer?
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That's saying the devs should not be giving non-PvPers are chance to 'mess with things' in the PvP zones. I understand it isn't saying that they should be kept out, but it could happily be read that way. I'm also happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.
OTOH, others posting after you basically have said that non-PvPers shouldn't enter the zones, and you are aware that there is an attitude of "if you don't want to get killed, keep out."
Personally, the only time I have complained about getting killed in a PvP zone was when I got slotted by a Stalker in what gets called a 'Safe Zone'. I wasn't actually bothered about the death, I was bothered that Cryptic had lied about the Safe Zone.
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You are right PVP is a small minority but thats no reason why our game should be influenced by those not participating in it
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There's no reason why my RP should be ruined by someone who isn't participating, but it happens on a semi-regular basis. Nothing is apparently done about this. There isn't even an RP Zone I can go to, at least you have three Zones and the arenas specifically designed to cater to your needs.
Everyone forgets this game started out PvE only. CoH sold on it being PvE only to many people. I'm utterly amazed that anyone thought adding PvP would improve things. I'm equally amazed that anyone thought the Arenas and Zones would be heavily used. I'm trully flabergasted that people thought the implementation of PvP would be good. Code retro-fits are always a mess.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
its not really about that we dont want PvE-ers in a PvP zone.. most PvPers dont mind that. However, those PvE-ers that dont want to PvP, can affect the PvP game, now that is something that annoys most PvPers.
Its different from the "I am forced into a PvP zone and I dont want to PvP!" argument, where you really are FORCED into the zone which I agree shouldnt happen.
These PvE people enter a PvP zone to do mishes out of their own free will. They start to do mishes for the extra xp reward. Complain when PvPers kill them on the way to a mish saying they were only there to do a mish. Well if they just wanted to do a mish they can do it outside a PvP zone, suck it up and accept your defeat.
In fact those people are PvPing because of those mishes. They might not want to actively fight others, but those mishes affect the heroes/villains in that zone with buffs/debuffs. Which affects the PvP game. You can compare it to some sneaky defender/corrupter in the back who keeps buffing/debuffing.
So the complains bout "I was only there for a mish, dont attack me" arent really valid. As long as they affect the PvP game, they are PvPing. If the buffs were to be removed then the complains get a bit more valid. Just that 10% extra xp is all part of the reward for the risk of being PvPed.
Also, there are comments "well do the mishes yourself as well then". Problem with this is, even though you get sk/ex to a certain lvl, you can still outlvl the pvp mish contact. If one of the sides only has higher lvl players who are exemped, none of them can do the mishes to counter it. So another solution will be that the exemping and sking will also work for the contact so pvpers can counter the buffs.
Just my 2 inf
"god, how many devs did hami have to sleep with to get ED?"
Total Cat @Stagefright
Yes, somewhat.
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What I meant with "crying to mommy" is all the threads I've previously read about people ranting on here that they didn't want to pvp and we're only there for the missions.
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I've seen more posts from PvPers complaining about the noises from non-PvPers doing the missions, tbh.
For the record, I don't complain. I go in there prepared to defend myself or run if attacked. If I get attacked, then so be it, that's the risk I run. Frankly, I almost never get attacked. There just aren't that many people in Warburg.
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Which is really annoying, since their farming of xp on the missions is causing us PVP'ers (now Siren's too) to get de-/buffed.
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What do you expect? Not only is it game-legal, you can bang through levels like it's going out of fashion. I was stuck with Crow at about level 38.5. No instanced missions left on any contacts. The choice was do nothing or hunt Tanks and War Hulks for weeks in Crey's Folly. Crow didn't gain more than a few thousand xp during the whole of I5 (I got him out to run the Croatoa TF with some friends). Then out comes I6 and you can get 40-50k per mission! And the missions take 8-15 minutes! Crow got to level 40 in about a week, and please bare in mind I was on holiday for most of that week and away from my PC.
I knew the risks, I didn't complain about them, I got on and earned my xp and now I can get back to running interesting missions. Thank you very much, Warburg.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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I would thank you NOT to presume to tell me the sentiment in which I started my own thread
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From your opening post:
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the damn devs mess with our builds all the time in the name of "balancing" so why give people who dont pvp the opportunity to interfer?
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That's saying the devs should not be giving non-PvPers are chance to 'mess with things' in the PvP zones. I understand it isn't saying that they should be kept out, but it could happily be read that way. I'm also happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.
OTOH, others posting after you basically have said that non-PvPers shouldn't enter the zones, and you are aware that there is an attitude of "if you don't want to get killed, keep out."
Personally, the only time I have complained about getting killed in a PvP zone was when I got slotted by a Stalker in what gets called a 'Safe Zone'. I wasn't actually bothered about the death, I was bothered that Cryptic had lied about the Safe Zone.
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You are right PVP is a small minority but thats no reason why our game should be influenced by those not participating in it
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There's no reason why my RP should be ruined by someone who isn't participating, but it happens on a semi-regular basis. Nothing is apparently done about this. There isn't even an RP Zone I can go to, at least you have three Zones and the arenas specifically designed to cater to your needs.
Everyone forgets this game started out PvE only. CoH sold on it being PvE only to many people. I'm utterly amazed that anyone thought adding PvP would improve things. I'm equally amazed that anyone thought the Arenas and Zones would be heavily used. I'm trully flabergasted that people thought the implementation of PvP would be good. Code retro-fits are always a mess.
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I almost started flaming you as I misread your words, its funny how when you expect a conversation to go one way you read it that way despite the actual words . I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, the arenas suck [censored] big time and are massively underutilised, huge waste. The PVP zones are also underused but we do normally ahve 8-10 on each side in Sirens Call on defiant most nights, Sirens was a step in the right direction with the bounty system giving you +3 SO enhancements, it had a real award based system in their, warburg and Bloody bay doesnt have anything like that and as such doesnt really interest me (even though I am now fully slotted on +3s) but IMO the buff/debuff missions are the wrong way to go to if they want more people in.
As for RP, I dont do this myself but I am of the firm conviction people should be able to do what they want and I dont see it as being a big thing to make a zone and have it ran in such a way, sadly it would probably see more action than the PVP zones 
Its a great pity if other people ruin your RP experience, beats me in how people take joy in messing up other peoples fun (trash talk on broadcast does it for me but at least they normally stop when i ask)
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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So the complains bout "I was only there for a mish, dont attack me" arent really valid.
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Yup. If someone said on broadcast that they were there to do missions, I would make sure I take them down whenever I saw them.
[edited for clarity]
I should point out, I'm not saying I will go out and hunt them down until they leave the zone, just that if I spot them, I will take them down (or try). If you're doing the missions in a PvP zone, you are a part of the PvP, whether you like it or not.
So you'd purposely grief someone just because of what they said on Broadcast?
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What Im saying is the developers intention is likely to ahve the opposit effect, I.E. making people who do like PVP leave as their build is unduely altered by people who do not enter into the purpose of the zone (PVP) I have no problem with people exploiting the higher XP missions but I fail to see how people with no interest in PVP should be able to fundamentally effect those who do.
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Just let "opposition" into the missions. Go to mission terminal and see that the villains have 4 active missions against the longbow (so their spies say). You can then accept one of them as a counter mission. In return up the xp on the missions to say 20% bonus for the extra danger.
Prolly have to limit number of people able to enter to same as number on mission. eg 3 people in mission no more than 3 people can go in to fight them.
Would actualy make them potentially pvp missions. And there would actually be a more real risk/reward system in situe.
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So you'd purposely grief someone just because of what they said on Broadcast?
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No. But them doing missions would make my life harder. I don't consider that griefing.
*nods* That's fair, so long as you;re doing it with the intent of preventing them from debuffing your side, and not out of spite for what they say on Broadcast, which is the implication of your post.
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*nods* That's fair, so long as you;re doing it with the intent of preventing them from debuffing your side, and not out of spite for what they say on Broadcast, which is the implication of your post.
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You're right, it does sound like that, I've edited the post now.
confess, that does sound good, but it wouldn't work with the current missions. They are too short. I'm assuming the missions in Siren's are similar to the ones in Warburg. The shortest there can be done in around 8 minutes soloing on Rugged.
I think, considering the population of Warburg, I'd have taken the risks, assuming there was a limit on the team size put up against the missioning team.
It's unlikely Cryptic will do it because they would have to rewrite all the missions.
In general, it seems like you guys have something of a valid point. It hasn't always been very well put and I think some of your complaints (unknown level of buff/debuff) are somewhat mitigated if you pay attention, but you do seem to have a point.
Can't say I care what the missions in these Zones do. Removing them entirely seems a little extreme and will reduce the zone populations a lot. People who might have tried PvP might not do so anymore as they won't bother entering the zones. OTOH, you may be right and the effects of the missions scare PvPers off.
I'd certainly be happy to see the missions changed. I'd feel rather hypocritical saying they should be removed entirely having benefitted from them myself.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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The shortest there can be done in around 8 minutes soloing on Rugged.
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Yeah, I can run through them in about 10 minutes or so with my blaster.
I really like Confess' idea though, they would have to change the missions a bit...but it would be great.
I actually think Crystalwolf's idea of putting the buff/debuff aspect out in the open, not in instanced missions, is better. It would need some thinking about, but consider the implications.
Heroes and villains now have a situation where they have to defend some part of their base from the opposition to avoid being debuffed. Say there's a store room containing a few crates and stealing the crates debuff's villain damage (as well as rewarding the hero who confiscated it with xp). There's a similar room at the hero base. When the room is emptied of crates, there's a pause, then they respawn, if no member of the opposition is in the room (stops camping).
I'm sure there would be automated defenses and mobs, but the main defense is the players. You have to decide, defend your own base, attack theirs, or go out and fight in the open. And you have limited troops to divide up.
I might even consider that kind of PvP myself.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Hmmm... I hadn't actually thought of what the missions would be...
I need to go and ponder that.
Great ideas for it though Raven.
*mumbles to himself and wanders off*
I do think the debuffs are a bit extreme. Yesterday I was using Build Up with Bonesmasher and could hardly hurt a corruptor!
Oh, and Happy Birthday Botty!