Plant domtrollhealerslower ... person thing build
By
Augury,
Posted on: 2005-12-19 15:58 in Dominators
Healing
The only thing about this is if you are teaming always you'll be completely overshadowed by a */Kinetics or /*Dark or /*Thermal or */Radiation AOE Heal, all of whom have better-in-every-way heal powers. All of those but Kinetics can also Rez.
Domination
You might find it slow to build Dom with only the 2 secondary attacks, I ended up taking 4 attacks by level 10. To me it looks like you've gone a little overkill on the 'no damage' route. Chilling Embrace looks pretty nutty...maybe an attack power instead? go on, you know you want to ;>
Endurance
Probably because of my big attack chain I found I needed Stamina, it's also true that the mez powers are pretty END heavy.
I know my healing will be somewhat inferior, but still reasonably solid as a backup healer, especially with spirit tree, so I'm willing to roll with that. I was under the mistaken impression only dark and radiation could heal, thanks for clearing that up. 
Your second and third point actually somewhat tie in together. My two ice blasts will be actually very end light, which they need to be considering I can't fit stamina in anywhere. If I took more blasty powers I'd probably wind up overshooting on my end usage.
I'm not too concerned about the mez powers taking a lot of end, due to their long recharge they'll probably be less end heavy than my Aid Other/Self and my single target hold.
Domination was a little slow when I teamed last night, but I think it will be better, if a little slow, but definately bearable later on.
Thanks for your input!
Oh and before I forget, why exactly do you suggest switching chilling embrace out? Is it the aggro it generates or ... well, something else?
I'd definately try and fit another attack in somewhere to help build domination. Having domination up every 5 minutes means your team will waltz through tough fights and you won't need those heals and support tools to survive.
Half the time when I hit that domination button, I'm off!! Forget the team. I can take on the whole damn room!
Dont know personally but have heard a lot of folks say that spirit tree is next to useless. Medicine pool is good tho, have a few corr friends with it, and certainlyhelps keep a team ticking along.
As for attacks, well at lvl 36 I have 3 powers out of my secondary set, is enough to keep an attack chain going. More than that seems a waste. So picked up other stuff instead.
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Oh and before I forget, why exactly do you suggest switching chilling embrace out? Is it the aggro it generates or ... well, something else?
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There's nothing wrong with it by itself - works great on an Ice Tank, the thing is you have to wonder when you would use it given its main effect is a PBAoE -Recharge. Given the fact that you already have an AoE Hold, a Cone Confuse, a single target Hold, an AoE Sleep (which Embrace will break), "slowing down enemies' attacks" seems both a bit weedy and more than a little dangerous for you since there's never a time when it would be sensible to use.
...And you could take another attack instead.
For some reason your last post had a very "These are not the droids you are looking for." vibe, and I'll be asking myself if I really want/need chilling embrace. It probably would be sensible switching it out for another attack, but then it'd be a one slotted attack.
Hardly spectacular either.
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an AoE Sleep (which Embrace will break)
[/ QUOTE ]Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought non-damaging debuffs didn't break sleep...
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an AoE Sleep (which Embrace will break)
[/ QUOTE ]Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought non-damaging debuffs didn't break sleep...
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You could be right, I'm used to running Icicles with Chilling Embrace, either way, it does point up the redundancy of Embrace...
Won't carrions break the sleep anyway, thusly making the sleep more redundant than the embrace? 
But you can use the sleep as control/panic button when creepers isn't deployed or recharged 
Well looking at the build I can't help but feel there is a bit of a mismatch going on. I know you said its not how you will be slotting but still worth commenting on I think :P
A lot of your powers you are slotting for very high recharge and not much duration on any of the effects (apart from an odd slow and a couple of holds on your single target hold). So you will be spamming powers out left right and center. Vines for example is only going to last a few short seconds when it is actually available. On the flip side, no stamina to enable rapid casting of lots of powers.
So for example if you slotted confuse for confuse duration in there somewhere you wouldn't have to cast it so often. I personally am finding this power about the best for rapidly bringing a rogue group under control although I'm only 22 with mine so far so some of the higher up powers like carrion creepers could be good.
Also if you are planning to heal things you are going to have a job keeping up with throwing out these mez effects and healing at the same time.
Personally I wouldn't take the healer option, with longer lasting mez effects you could use the slots and power spaces on other options, but if its a concept thing fair enough.
For example you take the 10 slots and 2 power spaces from healing pool. You drop another power, and go for fitness. You use 2 slots on stamina to take it to 3, if you want to do a bit of healing effect add in 3 more slots on spirit tree for health (it is noticable with so's the heal rate, even if it is situational when you can use it). Use the rest of the free slots to boost your other controlling powers like seeds etc or even some attacks for a bit more punch with domination. Your seeds of confusion could be lasting twice as long, so with only the one casting you not only free up power casting time you save on endurance.
The pet being slotted for damage, I'm not so sure it struck me from the description as being a more controlling pet than a beat down pet, still I'll have to wait to experiment with that one for myself I will be slotting control aspects in it at first.
The pet sounded kinda like a thorns scrapper to me, I'll reslot it differently if it turns out to be drastically different.
I'll look for the net gain of slotting duration over recharge, but I don't think I'll change my stance on this one. Durations rarely go over 30 seconds, while have a 240 second recharge is very common. If you slot 3 durations on vines then you get a 57 second hold every 240 seconds. Slot 3 recharges and you get a 30 second hold every roughly 2 minutes.
This is basically the same: 0.25 seconds per second will be your vines hold. So statistically one choice isn't any more inherently valuable the other. With power boost and hasten these figures would be: (if I recall my % stacking rules properly)
90 seconds hold per 140 seconds, or 60 seconds hold per 90 seconds. 0.64 and 0.66 seconds of hold per second. Respectively. Again, the difference is negligable.
You're right that slotting duration means less activations of the powers, and since I'm running a build sans stamina that means I take a double whammy, or I'm at least using more stamina than I could be. While completely a valid point, here's what I have to say about this:
Endurance drain is in your attack chains and regularly used powers with a low recharge rate!
Let's compare something as teeny as Ice Bolt to Vines, even on my 3 recharge way:
Ice Bolt:<ul type="square">[*]Costs 5.20 endurance[*]Recharge 4.00 seconds[/list]Vines:<ul type="square">[*]Costs 15.60 endurance[*]Recharge 90.00 seconds[/list]
This comes out at 1.3 endurance per second for Ice Bolt, and a tiny 0.1733 endurance per second for Vines. Sure, Vines takes a chunk out of my endurance all at once but it can't eat it up, it's endurance/second rating is far, far too low to ever run me out of endurance. Inversely if I keep ice bolt on auto attack that will run me out of endurance 7.5 times faster!
Now, since obviously large recharge powers aren't going to be the things to run me out of endurance (ice bolt, bitter ice blast, aid other and aid self are far, FAR more likely to do that) and I've already proved that the net gain between holds and recharges is just as much, the only remaining choice is: do I want my power to last longer and make some fights a lot easier, or do I want my power to be available more often and make almost all fights easier, though not as much as if it lasted longer?
You obviously subscribe to the former school of thought. This is fine, it's probably most effective in the really tough fights where mopping up quickly at the start before getting to the big fish (elite boss, AV, superhero) is important. However: I prefer my powers to be available to me on a regular basis. This far more dictates my personal preference than if it makes a medium difference vs a big difference. What good is a big difference if I can't apply it at least once a fight? With recharges, I'm almost -assured- it'll be available when I need it.
Seeds of confusion and Spore burst too would cost 0.5 endurance per second at worst in my build (if you don't look at the endurance redux I did put there for a reason), while ice bolt costs nearly 3 times as much and strangler costs 2 times as much. Note that ice bolt has an end redux in it to somewhat aleviate this problem which brings it down to less than 1 endurance per second, and that strangler DOES have 3 hold durations, because in that case it makes far, far more of a difference! It's already way end heavier than a lot of recharge heavy powers will ever be for me, slotting a lot of durations in it will let me pop it off a few times and then focus on other things, and I don't need recharges to be able to rely on it.
Now, as to why I don't need stamina, I simply compared to my grav/enr dom's regularly used powers she has at 32 with fully slotted stamina: (e/s = endurance per second)
- Power bolt: 1.3 e/s
- Gravity distortion: 1.07 e/s
- Bone smasher: 1.07 e/s
- Propel: 1.17 e/s
- Total Focus: 0.93 e/s
- Gravity distortion field: 0.11 e/s
- Dimension shift: 0.14 e/s
- Power boost: 0.09 e/s
- Toggle: Combat Jumping: 0.07 e/s
- Toggle: Maneuvers: 0.24 e/s
She goes through 6.19 endurance per second. This is of course overly optimistic but since I'll be taking the optimistic route for both, still valid as a comparative tool.
My planttroller:
- Hasten: 0.09 e/s
Hasted:
- Strangler: 1.81 e/s
- Ice bolt: 1.65 e/s
- Bitter ice blast: 1.38 e/s
- Aid other: 1.32 e/s
- Aid self: 1.32 e/s
- Power boost: 0.13 e/s
- Seeds of confusion: 0.40 e/s
- Spore burst: 0.37 e/s
- Vines: 0.17 e/s
- Carrion creepers: 0.19 e/s
- Spirit tree: 0.17 e/s
Not hasted:
- Strangler: 1.06 e/s
- Ice bolt: 0.98 e/s
- Bitter ice blast: 0.81 e/s
- Aid other: 0.87 e/s
- Aid self: 0.87 e/s
- Power boost: 0.09 e/s
- Seeds of confusion: 0.26 e/s
- Spore burst: 0.22 e/s
- Vines: 0.13 e/s
- Carrion creepers: 0.14 e/s
- Spirit tree: 0.12 e/s
Hasten will be up approximately 63% of the time, and thus down 37% of the time. With hasten the endurance per second rate is 8.91, without it 5.55, this means that the average rate is .63*8.91 + 0.37*5.55 + 0.09 (for hasten itself) = 7.7568 or 7.93 with chilling embrace, or 8.21 with whirlwind. Running both won't happen: whirlwind has a larger area than chilling embrace and would make it moot.
Now, you might say 7.7 is WELL over the 6.19 my other dominator with stamina has, and you'd be entirely correct. However, this is absolute WORST case scenario. Realistically I will be only using 3 to 4 endurance per second, since the likelyhood of me spamming strangler, ice bolt, bitter ice blast, my self heal and my heal other all at once is very slim. This is assuming I will using my chain powers about as much as normal despite hasten, and using aid other only 50% of the time, and aid self only 25% of the time. 3.5 is a lot lower than 6, obviously. The same cannot be said about my grav/enr, when I play her her chain is usually going off all the time. There is a very real potential for me running myself out of endurance quickly in a pinch by spamming powers, so one could say it swings between 3 and 8. This bothers me not, and while stamina might help in a pinch, likely it'll be a do or die scenario and I can use rest after. I don't expect to use more than 3 or 4 most of the time.
And even then, the long recharge powers that are not part of my chain are only making up 1.34 endurance/second for this. That's next to nothing.
Although upon review of these numbers, I am inclined to put extra end reduxes in my main chain powers.
I'll have to look into that. I'm even less inclined to switch out chilling embrace for another regular attack as that will drain my endurance pool even faster (since as we saw above, its not big endurance chunkers with long recharge that kill endurance, its your regular attack chain).
EDIT: Upon review of the figures above I've actually worked out that I'll be slotting my main chain powers as such:
Strangler: Acc, Acc, Hold, Hold, Hold, EndRed
Ice Bolt: Acc, Acc, Slow, EndRed, EndRed
Bitter Ice Blast: Acc, Acc, AccDebuff, Slow, EndRed, EndRed
That shaves about 1 endurance per second off the top. So it'd be 2.5-6.5 endurance/second usage. That should be approximately 4.5 statistically vs the 6 of my other dom. Not bad at all, I say.
So since I'm usually 1.63 or more under what my other dom puts out and stamina only gives you 1.66 more endurance per second 3 slotted with SOs, they should both operate on average on the same "acceptable to me" level of endurance consumption. HAH! I'm happy I did all that math, now I don't have to be a doubting Thomas about needing stamina.
You're an utter nerd, sweety.
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You're an utter nerd, sweety.
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But one with a very well thought out build. 
I've done attack chain comparisons with DPS, rech and END/s before, but ended up stopping it because those numbers never had anything to do with reality...
I rather play the build myself a bit and see whether or not i need more endurance.
With my ice powers if I try to kill something with just my hold and blasts even with stamina my end crashes, its only if I enter melee I can survive. I do however have the melee slotted for damage, but even before stamina and SOs (had no enhances in anything till level 27) I could only build domination with melee and holds the ranged attacks alone made hardly any difference.
Chilling Embrace doesn't break sleep.
Having every single secondry I can build domination at an all right rate, but Ice seems slower than other doms (fire's nice damage gives them an edge for a start)
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Well I can't argue about it being well thought out or not.
Aside from the number per second though, the thing I find is though you need powers in bursts as well all know. Now I tend to play on large teams so I need to be throwing out everything I can to help the team along in a short burst of time and power output. With something like vines the end use per second is pretty much meaningless as you will pretty much never cast it twice in one fight, so if I drop it I want it to last, like you say fights don't tend to last 2 minutes unless its an AV.
For something like your single target hold, I would question the end reduction, without it double stacking holds on bosses is reduced (with a small team environment this isn't such an issue mind you). Now you can do this with vines as a back up but only once in a fight as I say. I don't actually find the end use too bad anyway on it, then again I do have 3 slotted stamina with so's so thats probably why.
Personally I will probably be slotting something like vines for 2 acc/2 - 3 hold/ 1-2 recharge.
I dunno, on paper it looks great backed up by the figures and if you don't mind a bit of down time between fights as well I'm sure it will be ok, as I say I tend to play on large teams so I tend to need powers that hit, last and are back when I need them.
I'll be 6 slotting seeds and vines at least for my aoe control, probably carrion creepers too to be honest although not had chance to mess around with it myself yet. I suppose the other luxary I have is havng psi as a secondary I have another means of hit point regen in the form of drain psych as well as extra endurance if I need it.
I honestly can't see your build not working, I'm not trying to pick holes in it. The old stamina argument has been going since day one, so its nice to see a build at least that doesn't use it.
Please don't mind the slotting. I just added them for how many slots they will have at level 40, not for order. I'll figure that out as I go along.
Archetype: Dominator
Primary: Plant Control
Secondary: Icy Assault
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Strangler==> Acc(1) Acc(3) Acc(3) Hold(5) Hold(5) Hold(37)
01) --> Ice Bolt==> Acc(1) Acc(11) Slow(21) Slow(37) EndRdx(39)
02) --> Ice Sword==> Acc(2)
04) --> Roots==> Acc(4)
06) --> Aid Other==> Heal(6) Heal(7) Heal(7) Rechg(9) IntRdx(9) IntRdx(19)
08) --> Seeds of Confusion==> Acc(8) Acc(11) Rechg(13) EndRdx(13)
10) --> Spore Burst==> Acc(10) Acc(15) EndRdx(15)
12) --> Hasten==> Rechg(12) Rechg(17) Rechg(17)
14) --> Super Speed==> Run(14)
16) --> Power Boost==> Rechg(16)
18) --> Vines==> Acc(18) Acc(19) Acc(21) Rechg(23) Rechg(23) Rechg(25)
20) --> Aid Self==> Heal(20) Heal(25) Heal(27) Rechg(27) IntRdx(29) IntRdx(29)
22) --> Stimulant==> IntRdx(22)
24) --> Resuscitate==> Rechg(24) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
26) --> Carrion Creepers==> Rechg(26) Rechg(33) Rechg(36) Acc(37)
28) --> Spirit Tree==> Rechg(28) Rechg(31) Rechg(33)
30) --> Whirlwind==> EndRdx(30) EndRdx(33) EndRdx(34)
32) --> Fly Trap==> Acc(32) Acc(34) Dmg(34) Dmg(36) Dmg(36)
35) --> Chilling Embrace==> EndRdx(35)
38) --> Bitter Ice Blast==> Acc(38) Acc(39) TH_DeBuf(39) Slow(40) Slow(40) EndRdx(40)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Domination==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
So I decided to make a dominator that was far more team oriented, almost like a controller. Why? Because my girlfriend made a build that was sort of like that, and I was interested by it and further spurred on by the dominator popularity thread.
Primary areas of control/team usefulness:
Controlling <ul type="square">[*]Strangler (single hold)[*]Roots (AoE immob)[*]Seeds of Confusion (cone confuse)[*]Spore Burst (AoE sleep)[*]Vines (AoE hold)[/list]Healing <ul type="square">[*]Aid other & self[*]Stimulant[*]Resuscitate[*]Spirit tree[/list]Slow/Debuff/Knockback <ul type="square">[*]Ice bolt (short duration slow/domination builder)[*]Bitter Ice Blast (slow/acc debuff/damage)[*]Carrion Creepers (slow, -speed, knockdown, immob, soft control)[*]Chilling Embrace (PBAoE slow toggle)[*]Whirlwind (PBAoE knockback)[/list]
I'll be slotting all recharge heavy powers for minimum 2, usually 3 recharge, and take hasten. I will be taking power boost for added control boost. I will be using ice bolt and holds to build domination.
The best thing about this build is that most of my powers for control will be available frequently (vines being the only one not available as often). Between haste and the recharge stuck into cone of confusion I will have confusion available a little bit after it wears off, or straight after. Same for sleep. Vines should be available once for most fights. Carrion creepers a little bit less unfortunately, but it can't be helped.
I'll be able to single target slow pretty solidly using ice bolt (bitter ice blast will make it better but this will be once my character is topped out in level). I'll be able to slow in a PBAoE effect if I feel brave enough. Between spirit tree and aid self and whirlwind for emergencies I feel confident I can stay alive despite the aggro chilling embrace might incur. Whirlwind and carrion creepers will knock things all over the place if needed.
My healing will be lacking until I get spirit tree and properly get it slotted for recharge. Once I get it between that and aid other/self I'll probably be reasonable at it, which considering its one of 3 or 4 areas of utility, is more than I expected. Resuscitate will help a lot too as very few villains seem to have a rez power. Stimulant can help in a pinch, but I'm not sure how useful it'll be.
Add on top of that that I have a pet, and domination, and I should think this build should be a whirling dervish of slows, heals, controls and knockbacks.
Any input? I'm pretty pleased with this planning so far but if I've made any blatant errors, I'd certainly like to know.
Just for the record, this character is not meant to solo. Ever. Although possibly at 40 she could.