Question about Ele Assault and Nrg Assault!
By
Chrome_Family,
Posted on: 2009-07-26 21:23 in Dominators
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Well, what would you call permadom other than "having Domination up all the time"? So if the devs intended for the damage Dominators do to be the same as if they had (old) Domination up all the time, then wouldn't you say that's making the damage the same as permadom?|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
That's not to say 'Permadom is the balance point on which we are basing Dominator performance.' You can read that into the writing if you want, but it's certainly not what I see.
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Now, note that I said the damage done was equal to having Domination up all the time, not any of the other advantages of permadom. Permadom still has advantages under new Domination, just not damage. If you thought I meant to imply that, then that's not really what I meant. I'm talking about damage, and damage alone. And double and triple Domination don't enter into it either.
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I'm not entirely certain how to express this without irritating someone, but the real shift was to give Dominators primary and secondary 'equal focus.' To let it control as good as a control AT, and assault as good as a hypothetical assault AT. Permadom was not a benchmark, it was a ballpark. |
In the end, though, they decided that it was not too much. The balance point was just about where the devs wanted it. (or they certainly would have changed it) So what we are talking about is what Domination is RIGHT NOW. Not what we were afraid it might have been, what it could have been, but what it is. Which is, under the judgement of the devs, that having permadom level damage at all times is NOT imbalancing.
Again, if you disagree, point that out to the devs, not to me. I can do nothing about that judgement.
Now, whether we agree that Dominators are overpowered or not, we are talking about a comparison between the various Dominator Secondaries. And if we take as the baseline of performance the original damage under Domination, then we can analyze that, and state that Electric is now doing somewhat less damage, but using less Endurance, while Energy is doing a really nice amount of more damage, but also using more Endurance as well. Such a comparison isn't really as obvious if you state, instead, that both Electric and Energy are doing more damage, which compared to pre-Domination levels they both are. But you lose the minor details, as well as allowing misperceptions, such as that all Doms got their End costs raised to pay for the new base damage, to creep into the discussion.
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Same? No. It's making the damage more than the damage was under permadom, making dominators more buffable, making dominators better when buffed, and that's all. No mez protection, no increased mez duration or magnitudes, none of that. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, what would you call permadom other than "having Domination up all the time"? So if the devs intended for the damage Dominators do to be the same as if they had (old) Domination up all the time, then wouldn't you say that's making the damage the same as permadom?
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The changes did not move damage to Permadom and park it. For the most part, they moved further onwards, and increased damage past that point.
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Granted, that too. But the starting point, the benchmark, was where a normal, unbuffed Dominator could perform under permadom. That was Castle's example when he made the comparison. It was in fact his argument that while double and triple Dom would lose damage under this new system, they could be buffed by teammates to be just as well off. They just could not do this ALONE. |
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
It's making the damage more than the damage was under permadom, making dominators more buffable, making dominators better when buffed, and that's all.
The changes did not move damage to Permadom and park it. For the most part, they moved further onwards, and increased damage past that point. |
I am not trying to say that the new system is THE SAME as old permadom. Only that under the conditions set out for the baseline, the damage values will be equal.
(And just in case you're trying to say this, I'm not really considering 105.0 compared to 103.85, or 95.0 compared to 90.0, to be a significant amount of damage buff. Not when compared to the overall buff itself. Such a minor change is not going to be noticable compared to the greater changes to the individual Secondaries themselves)
I suspect you'll find Castle chose that example, not because it was part of his original reasoning, but because the dominator forum itself was, at that point, peeing its collective pants over having our toys taken away. It was probably expressed that way for our benefit, not as an explanation. People are notoriously rubbish at understanding actual math when it's presented to them, reacting instead emotionally.
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Can't disagree with that. |
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
I suspect you'll find Castle chose that example, not because it was part of his original reasoning, but because the dominator forum itself was, at that point, peeing its collective pants over having our toys taken away. It was probably expressed that way for our benefit, not as an explanation. People are notoriously rubbish at understanding actual math when it's presented to them, reacting instead emotionally.
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I'm pretty sure the stated goal to "minimize the effect to perma-Dom" was intended to keep it from being percieved as a nerf to permadoms, in order to bring them in line with non-perma-Doms. Which it still is percieved as a nerf, but at least we can say those nerfs were to the Power Sets, and not to Domination as a whole.
wow.. LOL.. I now have a headache after reading this thread. LMAO. No offense to anyone, I'm just not a numbers guy.. I don't get into the whole number crunching with the powers, buffs, debuffs, etc, etc... I do have a couple of questions though, just a few things I've been wondering about. First.... does doing the number crunching thing with the game give those players a advantage in combat? I've heard quite a few different answers, I just wanna know what the pple on here think about this. Second.. wth is "permadom"? LOL.
Re: OmniSurge:
1st: crunching numbers can give extra specific build tailoring that allows some pretty high-end performance. Usually that performance takes the shape of overcoming terrible odds (like soloing an AV), or something farming or pvp related.
2nd: "Permadom" = "perma-domination", where one has included enough recharge in a build (or perhaps from outside sources) to have the Domination button recharge fast enough to click again while the domination bar is still full. That way, the bar never drops, and you always have the benefits of domination. I think the minimum benchmark is around 75% global recharge + Hasten, so around 145% global recharge. That's not the exact minimum number, but it's close. More is generally considered better, as that gives you some wiggle room to click the button again.
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
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Originally Posted by RiverOcean
Grav/Eng would be my vote is must go Grav. I would say focus strongly on your secondary and have lift and your ST hold slotted up in the early levels. However, as said before Grav is very late bloomer with no solid AE control until later game.
If I can suggest Plant/Energy as an odd pairing that works well. Power Boost + Seeds of Confusion gives you early and reliable AoE control. Carrion Creepers is great neutering alphas and taking aggro. The set also does some decent damage. Combined with Energy it works unexpectedly well. |
I will agree that you get some late control with grav/nrgy, but if you are going to be soloing alot anyway you still get enough control to play well. The mind set is nice, but i think is much more team oriented. My personal feelings when playing my mind dom is that i miss the pet when solo. Now most argue that with the confuses the enemies become your pets, but it just feels like i have to over control with that set, and then miss the damage from the pets. Maybe cause its a mind/psi i dont know, it just feels that i want a pet when i play him.
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I'm in agreement with this. I've been levelling a Mind Dom since the changes (I've never really got one past L20 or so before) and I find I'm missing the pet for dealing with PToD EBs, and an Immob even more so.
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Originally Posted by QuiJon
I will agree that you get some late control with grav/nrgy, but if you are going to be soloing alot anyway you still get enough control to play well. The mind set is nice, but i think is much more team oriented. My personal feelings when playing my mind dom is that i miss the pet when solo. Now most argue that with the confuses the enemies become your pets, but it just feels like i have to over control with that set, and then miss the damage from the pets. Maybe cause its a mind/psi i dont know, it just feels that i want a pet when i play him.
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That's not to say 'Permadom is the balance point on which we are basing Dominator performance.' You can read that into the writing if you want, but it's certainly not what I see.
I'm not entirely certain how to express this without irritating someone, but the real shift was to give Dominators primary and secondary 'equal focus.' To let it control as good as a control AT, and assault as good as a hypothetical assault AT.
Permadom was not a benchmark, it was a ballpark. The standard was not put above permadom damage output because permadom was the desired state, but it was put there because testing and evaluation determined that to be a good place for it. That it therefore had a reduced impact on Permadom characters is an incidental benefit to the scenario.
In short, the change was not to that position because of permadom. It is coincidental, as you might note that they went beyond permadom's levels.