Meh. A little too heavy on the Martial Arts powers for my taste.
Also, the redraw would be practically mandatory. I can just hear the complaining now: "Why does my AR/Energy put away his gun when he uses Bonesmasher when the DP/Body blasters get to keep their guns out?"
Er, just noticed that the abbreviation for those two sets sounds vaguely dirty when paired together.....
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Er, just noticed that the abbreviation for those two sets sounds vaguely dirty when paired together.....
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Too funny.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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Also, the redraw would be practically mandatory. I can just hear the complaining now: "Why does my AR/Energy put away his gun when he uses Bonesmasher when the [Pistols/Martial Arts] blasters get to keep their guns out?"
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Actually, I would consider this one of the main selling points of the Set. It doesn't have to be ALL kicks, but with a few of them it could overcome the redraw problem that other Blaster Secondaries have. AR could always pair with this set if it wanted that capability...
OTOH, I definately think there should be some other effects, maybe so "Chi" effect buffs like in Energy, or some gadgets like Devices to round it out. It would probably have to be a little less damaging than Energy to counter the advantage of not requiring redraw.
Certainly if there is a Pistols Assault set for Dominators, and it mixes in hand to hand attacks with the pistol use, then it would have to be something that did not require redraw. So martial arts kicks would fit that bill. While Blasters don't need a set like this to be consistent with Dominators, it would sure be nice. Honestly, I don't like using Energy as a substitute for martial arts abilities, even though I do.
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Also, the redraw would be practically mandatory. I can just hear the complaining now: "Why does my AR/Energy put away his gun when he uses Bonesmasher when the [Pistols/Martial Arts] blasters get to keep their guns out?"
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Actually, I would consider this one of the main selling points of the Set. It doesn't have to be ALL kicks, but with a few of them it could overcome the redraw problem that other Blaster Secondaries have. AR could always pair with this set if it wanted that capability...
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I think the both you and the OP are either misinformed or ignorant of the reasons that redraw is in game.
A character will always put a weapon away in order to do a new attack unless the attack their using also specifically uses the weapon. From what BABs has told us, it's an issue of changing stances. You can't just flip a switch stopping a power from having redraw.
In order to stop redraw for a secondary like this, every power would need to have a huge block of code that specifically picks the animation for whatever weapon is out that the moment, be it a bow, a rifle, or the pistols. As we've also been told by BABs, the only power in the game that currently does this is Brawl, and it's got a huge, unwieldy, barely comprehensible amount of coding attached to it for something that is almost never used.
Shields get around this thanks to one very important thing: they're not a weapon. All it required was creation of a new stance (think what happens whenever you're flying) whenever the shield was out that forces the powers to default to different animations. You can't do this with the weapons. This is why you won't get a secondary like this that doesn't have redraw.
As to the actual set, I don't see it passing muster at all.
DA/Parry is already a stupidly strong power. With the Blaster self buff mod, it would only be reduced to 14% +def (melee/smashing). Considering the recharge and activation time on it, you'd still be able to easily softcap those defenses right out of the box. Numerous Kat/* and BS/* Scrappers have readily admitted that DA/Parry is the single most powerful defensive power they've got at their disposal. Blasters ain't gonna get it.
As to Foresight, I don't see that happening either. It's a significantly powerful auto power that, after the Blaster self buff scalar were applied, would be granting 5.25% +def(melee, ranged, AoE) unenhanced. That's completely out of the realm of a Blaster secondary power, especially considering all of the other stuff (psi resist, mez resist, def debuff resist) it does.
To me, it doesn't seem like you want a "body mastery" secondary. You want a "gun fu manipulation" secondary that will allow you to get higher levels of survivability than any other manipulation set currently allows. Everything else looks passably decent, though I think you're going a bit too heavy on stealing the good attacks from MA and not having any of the outright control powers that are supposed to be in manipulation power sets. Replace Sticky Hands with Cobra Strike and Foresight with some new power focused on control and you'll be closer to something that would actually show up in game.
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Also, the redraw would be practically mandatory. I can just hear the complaining now: "Why does my AR/Energy put away his gun when he uses Bonesmasher when the [Pistols/Martial Arts] blasters get to keep their guns out?"
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Actually, I would consider this one of the main selling points of the Set. It doesn't have to be ALL kicks, but with a few of them it could overcome the redraw problem that other Blaster Secondaries have. AR could always pair with this set if it wanted that capability...
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I think the both you and the OP are either misinformed or ignorant of the reasons that redraw is in game.
A character will always put a weapon away in order to do a new attack unless the attack their using also specifically uses the weapon. From what BABs has told us, it's an issue of changing stances. You can't just flip a switch stopping a power from having redraw.
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It seems to me that you just explained quite neatly how this will work, at least for Dominators. They have a martial arts attack defined with an animation that assumes they have the guns out. It doesn't USE the guns, it uses the kick, but it is a kick performed with guns drawn.
If what you're saying is true, that you can't have any animation that does not use the weapon that does not keep the weapon drawn, then no weapon set would be able to keep their weapon drawn when they use Taunt/Confront. Now, one thing I don't know is whether you HAVE to draw the weapon to use Taunt/Confront, or if you CAN have the weapon drawn to use Taunt/Confront. In other words, if Taunt has two animations depending on your stance, like Brawl does.
(Also, Build Up)
If that is not the case, then it's workable for Dominators, since it's all in the same set, but it's not for Blasters, since you would not be able to pair "weapon drawn" animations with Primaries that don't have weapons. There could also be the issue that the stance with Pistols is not the same as the stance with AR. However, it is at least possible that you could create a kick animation with both hands held out away from the body, which would not look too goofy with no weapons, would look fine with two pistols, and for the AR would have the rifle held in one hand while the other was held up away from it.
If it is possible to have the same power use two animations in two different stances, then that may work out even better. The problem is not the animation, it's whether you can make AR, Pistols and other sets share the "weapon drawn" stance.
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I think the both you and the OP are either misinformed or ignorant of the reasons that redraw is in game.
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I am neither ignorant or misinformed about the mechanics of redraw. I simply didn't feel like explaining it in my post, since it was early in the morning and I was half asleep.
The only way to avoid redraw is to make entirely separate animations for each power that includes the drawn guns. Which is highly unlikely to happen because A) then everyone who has redraw with a set they have will want the same thing, and B) BaBs isn't going to make 9 new animations just so people can keep their guns out. It's possible, they proved it when they tweaked Brawl to not cause redraw anymore by turning it into a kick. But that was a much easier tweak and not a redesign of already existing powers.
All of which is moot because the set, as presented, will probably never see the light of day.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I am neither ignorant or misinformed about the mechanics of redraw. I simply didn't feel like explaining it in my post, since it was early in the morning and I was half asleep.
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I think he means Spiritchaser and I, not you.
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The only way to avoid redraw is to make entirely separate animations for each power that includes the drawn guns.
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This is what I'd want.
There aren't all that many, since for the most part, it's not going to be a concern for Blasters. As far as I can see, you'd need to do pistols (presumably not a big deal, I think you could pretty much graft those right in there) AR (possibly a big deal) and Archery (yes that might suck, but I have faith)
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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DA/Parry is already a stupidly strong power. With the Blaster self buff mod, it would only be reduced to 14% +def (melee/smashing). Considering the recharge and activation time on it, you'd still be able to easily softcap those defenses right out of the box. Numerous Kat/* and BS/* Scrappers have readily admitted that DA/Parry is the single most powerful defensive power they've got at their disposal. Blasters ain't gonna get it.
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I have faith that the defence could be lowered to the point where it was quite accpetable. Even a simple "does not self stack" flag should solve the lion's share of the problem.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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To me, it doesn't seem like you want a "body mastery" secondary. You want a "gun fu manipulation" secondary
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Actually I want a low effects secondary with strong martial arts themes, one that allows the generation of a character that cannot, currently, be produced in game.
I recognize that no powerset would be around for just a single concept (even EATS are variable) so clearly it'd have to work conceptually with other primaries. I'm not sure how this wouldn't be appropriate for everything from a psionically endowed warrior to a special forces operative... but that's probably not an argument that can have a resolution
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will allow you to get higher levels of survivability than any other manipulation set currently allows.
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Input appreciated. Were sticky hands to be limited from stacking though, I'm not sure it'd be so night and day.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
By the way, thanks all for taking any interest in this. It's obviously a very hypothetical situation, I can't imagine much likelyhood of it coming to pass, but hey, I can hope.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Archery (yes that might suck, but I have faith)
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I can't believe I forgot that. My Archer is why I want Martial Arts.
I think the bigger problem is whether it is possible to come up with an alternate animation that can be used with all of them, or if it will have to be one for each of them. I'd take Martial Arts even with redraw, though.
I think the easiest and probably best solution for the redraw issue with Dual Pistols is to make the redraw about half the length of other ranged weapon redraw times. Assault Rifle for example takes about 1.3 seconds to redraw. If they made the redraw for Dual Pistols like.5 seconds, I think it would feel just fine.
I don't see this happening at all. There are EPPs for everything pared primary and secondary fire, ice, etc... There is already a natural themed EPP in Munitions.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I'd take Martial Arts even with redraw, though.
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So would I.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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1. Crane kick
... functionally identical to power thrust from EM ...
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I read your post title and was just about to suggest precisely this. It's a great idea.
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2. Thunder Kick
Similar to the scrapper attack, this version will have a 10 second recharge and hit substantially harder
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Why not a simple port of Crippling Axe Kick?
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3. Sticky Hands
... Parry ...
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A good illustration of why the blaster defense stigma is silly. I (and I suspect many other readers) had a kneejerk ZOMG OVERPOWERED response to this, but when you do the numbers, really, it's fine. 14% base defense to melee and smashing doesn't mean all that much, even if stacked, because they're two very unpopular defense types for the AT. In fact, it might even be skippable.
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4. Storm Kick
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Why not a simple port of Eagles Claw?
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7. Foresight
... I thought a bit of mez resistance might, however, be able to sneak in...
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Good luck with that. A stealthless Placate might be an easier sell.
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9. Eagles Claw
Similar to the Scrapper Power, this one has a 20 second recharge and really REALLY hurts.
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Neh, this set doesn't need another vanilla melee attack, even if it is a Total Focus. What about a teleporting Total Focus instead, like a shieldless Shield Charge, with or without a small aoe?
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The only way to avoid redraw is to make entirely separate animations for each power that includes the drawn guns.
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This is what I'd want.
There aren't all that many, since for the most part, it's not going to be a concern for Blasters. As far as I can see, you'd need to do pistols (presumably not a big deal, I think you could pretty much graft those right in there) AR (possibly a big deal) and Archery (yes that might suck, but I have faith)
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Not going to happen. I PMed BaBs a while back about removing the redraw from Kick because I didn't think it made sense to put your sword away to boot someone in the gut.
This is what he replied with:
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Short answer, because 'Kick' is a combat mode power and the various weapons use different modes. This isn't a matter of not having an animation that works, but a matter of how our powers/combat system works in regards to different combat modes and weapons.
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So, what I get out of all this is it would require 3 entirely new combat modes and 162 animations to not have redraw in that set.
162 = 9 animations x 3 weapon sets x 3 body types x 2 travel modes (flying and not flying)
The combat modes ALONE will take several months to get finished, and the animations will take even longer. I seriously doubt they are going to put THAT much work into a set just to avoid redraw, which every other weapon set has to deal with.
So, in conclusion, if a set like this were designed and implemented you can bet there will be redraw, it is much harder to remove it than it seems on the surface.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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So, in conclusion, if a set like this were designed and implemented you can bet there will be redraw, it is much harder to remove it than it seems on the surface.
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Much as I'd disslike this, it wouldn't stop me. I'd still roll a pistols/(whatever it gets called) blaster
If a miracle occured and a set like this happened, then as a compromise, I'd probably request that at least sticky hands get the same combat mode, ready stance etc as the dual pistols uses,
But then, lets face it: I'd probably be so happy that the set existed in the first place that I wouldn't care too much if the stance didn't work out.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
So dual pistols eh?
It's been known for some time now that dual pistols will never be a scrapper primary. I did hold out some hope for an epic for a while, but it looks like I'll just have to have a blaster. Ok then...
A blaster primary is great and all, but it's not (at least not obviously) going to lend itself to what I want: a gun-fu character. This is a character style I've wanted to make, ever since I got my trench coat, and I noted earlier that another poster had thrown out a melee secondary with a very martial arts like theme. My apologies for missing the reference on that! In any case, it got me to thinking about how I'd do a gun fu blaster, and what they'd need from a secondary to work. Obviously this couldn't be just a one concept secondary, but I think this could do well with psi or energy for a mentally adept martial artist, or with fire for some manner of diabolical monk, or with AR for a marine...
I'm curious to know how fair and/or playable people think this set looks.
1. Crane kick
The same (or similar) animation as the scrapper attack, but this is NOT the same power. In this set, it's a low damage attack that knocks your opponent back, functionally identical to power thrust from EM, the animation would need to be compatible with pistols, but I'd imagine that'd be doable. Just a quick note here, different applications of the same animation/name do sometimes occur, and in the blaster secondary tier 1 at that. Blaster/fortunata Subdue is a functionally different power for example. I don't see a problem with stealing Crane kick for this slot.
2. Thunder Kick
Similar to the scrapper attack, this version will have a 10 second recharge and hit substantially harder
3. Sticky Hands
To my mind, a power like this is key for any decent gun fu set. What is it? Parry. Yup, Parry. Basically the same power, but with blaster mods. It'll protect from melee attacks like parry. A minor change? it'll protect from smashing damage instead of lethal, and do smashing damage instead of lethal. To me this is the make it or break it power, the good stuff... so I put it in early. It is vitally important that BaBs lets these animations work with or without pistols!
4. Storm Kick
Also similar to the Scrapper Attack, but this version has a 14 second recharge and hits like a tonne of bricks.
5. Focused Accuracy/Buildup
For FA? The mods are a little different from the scrapper power. This version is mechanically identical to targeting drone in devices/gadgets. I was really torn here, I wanted to put in Buildup. I prefer buildup in almost every way, I think it's generally the superior power, but FA would be a little more distinctive. I guess I'd put this down to testing.
6. Dragon Tail
There are no blaster PBAoEs as low radius as this. Why can this be OK? Well with Sticky Hands you've got more melee range survival than most blasters, so go for it, take a chance and get in close. The compensation? reduced radius should mean more damage. Why hit their heads with your feet when you can hit their heads with the floor?
7. Foresight
This is the widow power. Not nearly as powerful with blaster mods, it'll still be effective and useful. I really wanted to add a Mez toggle, but after all these years I think it's become clear that such things just WON'T happen for blasters. I thought a bit of mez resistance might, however, be able to sneak in...
8. Conserve Power
Wouldn't really be body mastery without it, now would it?
9. Eagles Claw
Similar to the Scrapper Power, this one has a 20 second recharge and really REALLY hurts.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!