PvP Inherents for Tanks and Fenders.
By
AresSupreme,
Posted on: 2009-05-17 01:37 in Suggestions and Ideas
The word you're looking for is "Inherents". It might be a good idea, before suggesting changes to the game, to understand a bit more about how it works (or take the time to learn).
You're correct in your brief summations of Vigilance (Defender Inherent) and Gauntlet (Tanker Inherent). You are, however, incorrect in most of your other statements. Supermacy (Mastermind Inherent) has nothing to do with Resistance. It pertains to the effectiveness of the pets (+ACC, +DAM) when they are in range of the Mastermind. Perhaps you were thinking of Bodyguard Mode.
As for the other Inherents, you're correct that Brutes, Stalkers, Dominators, Corruptors, Blasters, Scrappers, Controllers and Kheldians all get something that in some way confers additional damage or has the potential to do so. However, they accomplish this in a number of different ways.
Also, in addition to Tankers, Defenders and Masterminds, SoAs also do not have an Inherent which relates directly to damage. Controllers get their extra damage only on Containment targets and then only when using powers to which Containment applies. Scrappers do not get Criticals with every hit. Blasters, Dominators and Brutes must all take steps to build up their damage bonuses and lose them if they are not actively maintained. Kheldians require teammates of the right stripe to gain their damage bonuses and must remain in close proximity to them to get those bonuses.
So yes, while many of the ATs can get some kind of damage bonus, they arrive at it in very different ways. It's not clear why you think every Inherent needs to have something to do with damage-dealing and changing the inherents seems like a needless thing to do, especially for Tankers, many of whom rely on Gauntlet to help them to hold aggro and perform their roles on teams.
Having a second inherent just for PvP seems likewise silly. The Inherents are supposed to be play into the central role of the respective AT and for the most part they do this well (Vigilance is debatable, but given the great variety of Defender primaries anything probably would be).
In short, /unsigned to this.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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The word you're looking for is "Inherents". It might be a good idea, before suggesting changes to the game, to understand a bit more about how it works (or take the time to learn).
You're correct in your brief summations of Vigilance (Defender Inherent) and Gauntlet (Tanker Inherent). You are, however, incorrect in most of your other statements. Supermacy, the Mastermind Inherent, has nothing to do with Resistance. It pertains to the effectiveness of the pets (+ACC, +DAM) when they are in range of the Mastermind. Perhaps you were thinking of Bodyguard Mode.
As for the other Inherents, you're correct that Brutes, Stalkers, Dominators, Corruptors, Blasters, Scrappers, Controllers and Kheldians all get something that in some way confers additional damage or has the potential to do so. However, they accomplish this in a number of different ways.
Also, in addition to Tankers, Defenders and Masterminds, SoAs also do not have an Inherent which relates directly to damage. Controllers get their extra damage only on Containment targets and then only when using powers to which Containment applies. Scrappers do not get Criticals with every hit. Blasters, Dominators and Brutes must all take steps to build up their damage bonuses and lose them if they are not actively maintained. Kheldians require teammates of the right stripe to gain their damage bonuses and must remain in close proximity to them to get those bonuses.
So yes, while many of the ATs can get some kind of damage bonus, they arrive at it in very different ways. It's not clear why you think every Inherent needs to have something to do with damage-dealing and changing the inherents seems like a needless thing to do, especially for Tankers, many of whom rely on Gauntlet to help them to hold aggro and perform their roles on teams.
Having a second inherent just for PvP seems likewise silly.
In short, /unsigned to this.
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I am saying a second inherent specifically for PvP that exists only in PvP instead of their pvp inherents in the same way that squishies get 40% res in PvP this topic has nothing to do with PvE at all. This one goes out to my PvP Heroes. Also, I forgot all about the Epic ATs, but still. Point is I would like to see useful inherents in PvP zones.
So a bunch of new coding for second inherents, but only for those ATs who have inherents you don't find "useful" in PvP now? Or new PvP Inherents for everyone? And what would these new inherents be? It's not clear what you're suggesting here, aside from "damage". If the intent is to move towards a 1v1 balance for PvP, that probably isn't going to happen, ever.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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So a bunch of new coding for second inherents, but only for those ATs who have inherents you don't find "useful" in PvP now? Or new PvP Inherents for everyone? And what would these new inherents be? It's not clear what you're suggesting here, aside from "damage". If the intent is to move towards a 1v1 balance for PvP, that probably isn't going to happen, ever.
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The intent here is to get useful inherents for Tanks and Defenders in a PvP zone on the count of every single other main AT has a useful inherent in PvP zones. Please explain to me how Gauntlet works in PVP, from what I understand it has a rather small chance of affecting foes...Also, if you are a PvPer which you probably are not, the final word in PvP is always a duel, and this [censored] is useless in a duel.
Again, if the intent is to move towards a 1v1 balance for PvP (i.e. duels), that probably isn't going to happen, ever. Like most games of this type, CoX seems to be going for a team vs team balance.
"Useful" inherents aren't a requirement for these ATs to perform in PvP (See Rad/Psy Defenders) and this amount of extra work to add in second inherents for all ATs (or just for the two you think need them) seems like a lot of Dev effort for little result. Basically a waste of time, at least in my estimation. You also still haven't said just what these new 'useful' inherents would be. Even if they wasted their time on something like this, why wouldn't the other ATs get one too? Or at least Masterminds and SoAs, the others without a 'useful' inherent?
Still, if all of this is aimed at duels, it's probably a waste of breath. Whatever you feel the 'final word' is, PvP is not going to be balanced around duels. Balancing around 1v1 PvP isn't going to work unless you basically turn everyone into reskinned versions of each other when they step into a PvP zone.
And for the record, no, I'm not a hardcore PvPer. I did PvP occasionally prior to I13 and I've elected to wait until the Devs are finished redoing PvP before venturing into it again in a significant fashion.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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Again, if the intent is to move towards a 1v1 balance for PvP (i.e. duels), that probably isn't going to happen, ever. Like most games of this type, CoX seems to be going for a team vs team balance.
"Useful" inherents aren't a requirement for these ATs to perform in PvP (See Rad/Psy Defenders) and this amount of extra work to add in second inherents for all ATs (or just for the two you think need them) seems like a lot of Dev effort for little result. Basically a waste of time, at least in my estimation. You also still haven't said just what these new 'useful' inherents would be. Even if they wasted their time on something like this, why wouldn't the other ATs get one too? Or at least Masterminds and SoAs, the others without a 'useful' inherent?
Still, if all of this is aimed at duels, it's probably a waste of breath. Whatever you feel the 'final word' is, PvP is not going to be balanced around duels. Balancing around 1v1 PvP isn't going to work unless you basically turn everyone into reskinned versions of each other when they step into a PvP zone.
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Regardless of whether the game is never gonna be duel based or not, most people don't create a pvp toon and say "hmmm, i want my toon to be good, but only on teams" We say, "hell, i want to be able to kill as much as i can as often as i can regardless of whether u are on a team or not. Also, since there is a such thing as "diminishing returns" Fenders dont need endo to heal their team out of danger anyway because after just a few of those smaller and smaller heals, it is nothing...Also, see rad/psy fenders? You must be thinking of i12. See sonic/ice corr which is > ice/sonic def, and scourge has a bit to do with that. Do you even PvP? You sound misinformed or behind the times a bit.
I was leaving the specifics of the useful inherents up for discussion and I was hoping to see ideas come in. Here is one off of the top of my head. Give tanks a fury like inherent which increases Def or Res, not sure which would be better. Give defenders something like defiance that but instead of increasing dmg increase rech with every attack, i dont know lol. Now there is something new. Those both would help with duels and general zone pvp. Ever see a crazy brute with rage going in zones? Means lots of dead stuff. LOTS of dead stuff. A good inherent works both ways.
Once again (and this is the last time I'm going to post this because you don't seem to be at all interested in actually suggesting something), you have yet to suggest what these new inherents would actually be or how they would resolve the problems you claim that Tankers and Defenders have. Also, healing's not the only thing a Defender might use endurance for, but we'll let that one go since it's an entirely different can of worms.
As for "i want to be able to kill as much as i can as often as i can", certain ATs are always going to be better suited to solo PvP than others.
That's how it is. Even if you did graft on this extra damage boost (or whatever it would be, you've never said), it's not going to change the nature of the ATs. Some are still going to have the edge over others. The only way you can even that out is to make everyone copies of each other with different costumes.
This seems more like a wishlist than any kind of workable suggestion, and it's a wishlist that should probably take a backseat to more important and called-for additions.
So, again, /unsigned on this one. We don't all need to be the bomb in duels in order for PvP to be working.
Edit: Speaking to your edit on the post above - I can respect the honesty of you at least admitting you didn't really have an idea when you posted this. The +recharge thing is interesting but probably incredibly broken in application - either you hit the DR caps in short order and it's relatively useless or you plaster your opponent into a wall and it's overpowered. As for gaining large amounts of +Def or +Res, it's an interesting mechanic and one that could grant survivability rather than damage. This would be more likely to work, I think.
Ultimately, I don't think an extra PvP-only inherent for just two ATs that supposedly need the help is worth the Devs' time here, but at least you've given this some thought and there's now something to be discussed. I may not consider it a good suggestion, but I can't say it isn't a reasonably considered and presented one anymore, so I give you credit for that. I think we're not going to get anything further that's productive out of this so I'll leave you to the next respondents.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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Once again (and this is the last time I'm going to post this because you don't seem to be at all interested in actually suggesting something), you have yet to suggest what these new inherents would actually be or how they would resolve the problems you claim that Tankers and Defenders have. Also, healing's not the only thing a Defender might use endurance for, but we'll let that one go since it's an entirely different can of worms.
As for "i want to be able to kill as much as i can as often as i can", certain ATs are always going to be better suited to solo PvP than others.
That's how it is. Even if you did graft on this extra damage boost (or whatever it would be, you've never said), it's not going to change the nature of the ATs. Some are still going to have the edge over others. The only way you can even that out is to make everyone copies of each other with different costumes.
This seems more like a wishlist than any kind of workable suggestion, and it's a wishlist that should probably take a backseat to more important and called-for additions.
So, again, /unsigned on this one. We don't all need to be the bomb in duels in order for PvP to be working.
Edit: Speaking to your edit on the post above - I can respect the honesty of you at least admitting you didn't really have an idea when you posted this. The +recharge thing is interesting but probably incredibly broken in application - either you hit the DR caps in short order and it's relatively useless or you plaster your opponent into a wall and it's overpowered. As for gaining large amounts of +Def or +Res, it's an interesting mechanic and one that could grant survivability rather than damage. This would be more likely to work, I think.
Ultimately, I don't think an extra PvP-only inherent for just two ATs that supposedly need the help is worth the Devs' time here, but at least you've given this some thought and there's now something to be discussed. I may not consider it a good suggestion, but I can't say it isn't a reasonably considered and presented one anymore, so I give you credit for that. I think we're not going to get anything further that's productive out of this so I'll leave you to the next respondents.
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Sorry, I tend to be completely defensive on these forums because of prior experiences. But I commend you on having something constructive to say. I am not a brick wall, information does get through. I will also say that I never meant that Def or Tanks need these new inherents, I merely would like for them to be implemented. When I come to these forums, I never expect for anything to happen but a discussion, so that is mainly what I am here for.
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Give tanks a fury like inherent which increases Def or Res, not sure which would be better.
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As this new inherent would be subject to Diminishing Returns, it wouldn't be terribly useful.
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Give defenders something like defiance that but instead of increasing dmg increase rech with every attack,
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That's really dangerous ground to tread. As the Defender attacks, they build up recharge, allowing them to attack faster, which builds up recharge faster, and it feeds on itself to ridiculous levels. Or it would, but again, it'd be subject to Diminishing Returns.
I'm not against seeing some new Inherents for Defenders and Tankers (and not just for PvP), but I'm not sure that these would really be what they need.
We'll always have Paragon.
This idea lacks merit of any kind.
Some Archetypes function better on teams. Universally. Hell, even Tankers have the PvP taunting ability in that they can ACTUALLY taunt a player and force them to target their character.
You're asking for the devs to make a move to more 1v1 PvP, which isn't going to happen. When you chose your particular Archetype, you did with the knowledge of how well he/she performs on teams. You shouldn't need to think "Hmm... The devs say that these are better with teams. I wonder if that applies for PvP, too."
It does.
What does Gauntlet do in PvP anyways?
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What does Gauntlet do in PvP anyways?
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Small but variable chance to taunt the target with each attack. This is taunt the status effect, not taunt the power of course, so it doesn't do anything to the target's range.
Does PvP taunt hold your target to you for a moment?
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Does PvP taunt hold your target to you for a moment?
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I think so, or perhaps just switches the target. Either way, that's pretty useful in fast-paced PvP.
If it doesn't I think it should like for 2 or 3 seconds force target the taunter.
It does, actually.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Well then Tank inherent works great in PvP.
Topic over good day.
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Well then Tank inherent works great in PvP.
Topic over good day.
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As for the Defender inherent? Can we agree that their inherent is meant for teams in ANY scenario as it stands?
Doms have domination, scraps and stalks have crits, blasters have defiance, etc etc.
So heres my thing. For PvP I would like to see useful inherents for Tankers and Defenders. From what I understand defenders get more endo when their allies are in trouble and tankers get more aggro when they attack.
Every single other main AT has DMG with the exception of the MM which still has a useful inherent. I would like to see Def get damage and Tanks get something like fury which brutes have but maybe have it effect Def or Resistance.