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There's also mounting and dismounting. While a WoW-borrowed "pops into existence under your butt" mechanic wouldn't be too far-fetched, it would be horribly ugly. The developers have a history of not green-lighting things unless they have at least some level of refinement in them, wings and custom weapons being good examples of that.
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Doesn't Commando parachute into action when you summon him? If that's correct, then how the heck does that make sense in a cave? Or an office building, etc.?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but the devs have been known to give on this point.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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However, your claim is STILL incorrect that, with "subject and body" as you posted, that this is the only post. Are you at 1 week, or 1 year? 1 week will give only this post.
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I never said that. I said:
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Hmmm... and I got 6 different threads...
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If I search "in subject and body" I get 200. Nevertheless, I don't get anything recent other than this one.
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I've always been fair. What I was pointing out was that search is flighty at best. Using your instructions, you come up with nothing. Using "in subject and body" requires you to spend some time sifting through older posts, which you can't necro anyway and not run afoul of the rules.
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Just scanning the *titles* should be enough. Vehicle pops up in several. "Burn rubber?" Where else is that typically mentioned other than in relation to vehicles - possibly racing, but that's still likely vehicle related?
The point is, even without "necroing" them, the person can read them and see the prior arguments - which, yes, I summarize in my cut and paste replies. They can see the problems that are brought up, the ideas to get around them, see if they apply, and revise their OWN idea potentially to see if they have a new twist on it. They can even address the individual points that come up.
The cut-and-paste itself has evolved over time with an example of "possible" ways of vehicle-like travel. It is not, and is never meant to BE, the be-all, end-all, final word on the subject, and I have never claimed it to be such. It is a reference, and a shortcut so the exact same discussions don't happen time and time again. The document is meant to be informative and educational. And that, so I'm told by people who *read* it and PM me - no, not the "S&I Regulars" as you put it, but usually people posting the ideas - is a successful goal.
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weapon customization (wait, we got that one)
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BABs actually said that weapon customization wasn't all that hard. It was just a matter of removing the form of the sword from the power and replacing it with a variable costume slot option. It wasn't something that was made virtually impossible without hefty modification of the game engine.
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As I remember they stumbled on weapon customization while working on shields, before that they thought it fell under power customization.
Now, since Geko has effectively threadjacked this with his complaints about people being given instructions on how to search, let's see what he has to say about the rest of the cut and paste, with the arguments that typically come up.
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Now, since Geko has effectively threadjacked this with his complaints about people being given instructions on how to search, let's see what he has to say about the rest of the cut and paste, with the arguments that typically come up.
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I've removed your commentary for space but I am responding to it under its subject heading:
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1. Movement.
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Super-cars.
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2. Movement, part 2.
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I can't just run over jay-walkers? 
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3. Terrain.
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Again, super-cars. See e.g. Pole Position cartoon from the 80s'. Wiki on Pole Position. Cars with jet skis!
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4. Combat.
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Point taken here. I agree this is a major hurdle.
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5. Customizing.
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Again Point taken.
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6. Making "sense."
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In comics, something makes sense if you want it too.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Now, since Geko has effectively threadjacked this with his complaints about people being given instructions on how to search, let's see what he has to say about the rest of the cut and paste, with the arguments that typically come up.
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I've removed your commentary for space but I am responding to it under its subject heading:
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1. Movement.
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Super-cars.
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Expand. That doesn't say much... we're picky about things in this game, after all. Cars doing perfect 90 degree turns, moving side to side, etc... I just don't think would fly. (And I don't think a flying car would, either...)
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2. Movement, part 2.
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I can't just run over jay-walkers?
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Only redside, but redside doesn't have many roads (that aren't filled with garbage, giant potholes, or just drop off into nothing.)
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3. Terrain.
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Again, super-cars. See e.g. Pole Position cartoon from the 80s'. Wiki on Pole Position. Cars with jet skis!
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... which, frankly, would look silly, IMHO. And what about the shard? Getting about in caves? (Remember, you're mentioning *cars* here.)
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6. Making "sense."
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In comics, something makes sense if you want it too.
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That's a cop out. :P And even discussions among comics fans will bring up the phrase "That makes no sense!" (generally with retcons, or having the seventh writer on the series start messing with things.)
I'm still, frankly, of the mind described in the last portion - as a temp power here and there, it might work, with limitations. As a travel power... not so much.
Well, it was my thread, may as well respond to contextual posts. 
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Back to topic:
The reasons why Vehicles (that's what you want to search for) are not and probably will never be part of the game are many, but a few stand out.
One is animations. How do you, say, use Golden Dragonfly while riding a vehicle? Either you need some fancy new animation, which can run up to hundreds if we look at how many we have in total, or some kind of limitation and "dismounting." For a bike that could possibly work, but if a system for bikes is implemented, it would have to cover more than just simple bikes.
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Personally, I wouldnt include attacking while riding. It takes the Super-Bike from Cool alternate travel animation (which is how I envisioned the suggestion) into fully-realized game-mechanics expansion. At which point you go from Thats an awful lot of work for a cool visual effect to ARE YOU FRELLING HIGH!?! *chuckles*
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Movement is another. Character can turn in place, run sideways, jump and cling to ledges, all without needing to pitch. Note how even when going up a steep slope, your character remains vertical. That's OK for something with as small a footprint as a humanoid, but for a larger bike, it would need to tilt, which the engine cannot do. And that's before we consider strafing, jumping and riding through water.
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Well
if you expand the idea to Vehicles in general this becomes more of a problem than if you restrict it just to bikes. You can (within certain parameters of acceptability
which are of course somewhat subjective) either make allowances for or entirely ignore the issues of movement dynamics (on-a-dime turns, strafing, jumping). Id slap that under the label of Its just a cool visual effect, dont demand too much of it.
The pitch problem is definitely legitimate. Although if the rider was simply in a bike-riding emote position they wouldnt *necessarily* need to pitch, perhaps just the bike that was node-attached to them. Yes, thered be clipping issues. My Shoulder Mantle Cape clips like mad with my Wedding Pack Tuxedo, too. We live with clipping to a degree and hope it gets better. But the pitch problem does add a bit (I use bit here to denote an amount I cannot enumerate with any accuracy) more complexity to the bike itself.
As for the size/footprint issue, Id opt to just enforce the footprint of the bike in regards to where it can and cant fit, and not allow it in buildings, bases, or missions. Water issues
as far as I know you cant superspeed run on water, so I cant imagine why you should be able to take your superbike into the water. Jumping and difficult terrain Id just give a pass to Youre Just That Good.
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There's also mounting and dismounting. While a WoW-borrowed "pops into existence under your butt" mechanic wouldn't be too far-fetched, it would be horribly ugly. The developers have a history of not green-lighting things unless they have at least some level of refinement in them, wings and custom weapons being good examples of that.
It's a cool idea and heavens knows it's been suggested probably over a hundred times, but it's been shot down by the developers themselves in the past.
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Id think (and keep in mind, Im not a programmer or a CG artist. Im a 2D artist primarily, these are just that
What I would think) that mounting and dismounting the bike would just be a matter as simple as bike appears, you mount animation, and you dismount, bike disappears animation. Id stop to wonder if this was lazy or copping out
but then I remember the beaten bodies of our foes that regularly vanish into thin air.
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Well, it was my thread, may as well respond to contextual posts.
[ QUOTE ]
Back to topic:
The reasons why Vehicles (that's what you want to search for) are not and probably will never be part of the game are many, but a few stand out.
One is animations. How do you, say, use Golden Dragonfly while riding a vehicle? Either you need some fancy new animation, which can run up to hundreds if we look at how many we have in total, or some kind of limitation and "dismounting." For a bike that could possibly work, but if a system for bikes is implemented, it would have to cover more than just simple bikes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I wouldnt include attacking while riding. It takes the Super-Bike from Cool alternate travel animation (which is how I envisioned the suggestion) into fully-realized game-mechanics expansion. At which point you go from Thats an awful lot of work for a cool visual effect to ARE YOU FRELLING HIGH!?! *chuckles*
[ QUOTE ]
Movement is another. Character can turn in place, run sideways, jump and cling to ledges, all without needing to pitch. Note how even when going up a steep slope, your character remains vertical. That's OK for something with as small a footprint as a humanoid, but for a larger bike, it would need to tilt, which the engine cannot do. And that's before we consider strafing, jumping and riding through water.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well
if you expand the idea to Vehicles in general this becomes more of a problem than if you restrict it just to bikes. You can (within certain parameters of acceptability
which are of course somewhat subjective) either make allowances for or entirely ignore the issues of movement dynamics (on-a-dime turns, strafing, jumping). Id slap that under the label of Its just a cool visual effect, dont demand too much of it.
The pitch problem is definitely legitimate. Although if the rider was simply in a bike-riding emote position they wouldnt *necessarily* need to pitch, perhaps just the bike that was node-attached to them. Yes, thered be clipping issues. My Shoulder Mantle Cape clips like mad with my Wedding Pack Tuxedo, too. We live with clipping to a degree and hope it gets better. But the pitch problem does add a bit (I use bit here to denote an amount I cannot enumerate with any accuracy) more complexity to the bike itself.
As for the size/footprint issue, Id opt to just enforce the footprint of the bike in regards to where it can and cant fit, and not allow it in buildings, bases, or missions. Water issues
as far as I know you cant superspeed run on water, so I cant imagine why you should be able to take your superbike into the water. Jumping and difficult terrain Id just give a pass to Youre Just That Good.
[ QUOTE ]
There's also mounting and dismounting. While a WoW-borrowed "pops into existence under your butt" mechanic wouldn't be too far-fetched, it would be horribly ugly. The developers have a history of not green-lighting things unless they have at least some level of refinement in them, wings and custom weapons being good examples of that.
It's a cool idea and heavens knows it's been suggested probably over a hundred times, but it's been shot down by the developers themselves in the past.
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Id think (and keep in mind, Im not a programmer or a CG artist. Im a 2D artist primarily, these are just that
What I would think) that mounting and dismounting the bike would just be a matter as simple as bike appears, you mount animation, and you dismount, bike disappears animation. Id stop to wonder if this was lazy or copping out
but then I remember the beaten bodies of our foes that regularly vanish into thin air.
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Regarding your last point -
Would the animation be the same for my teeny-tiny sliders all the way to the left female body skeleton be the same as those for my humongous sliders all the way to the right huge body skeleton be the same? Would they be riding the same super-cycle model?
Nope. So there's a few animation that would need to be different (note we have been told by the Lead Animator that for every single power animation change he makes, it actually becomes 3 changes because of the 3 different body skeletons).
As for the size, using a single cycle model would result in the hiliarity of this teeny-tiny body perched on top of an oversized (for her or him) motorcycle - do they get *really* high platform boots in an attempt to reach the pedals and the ground? Does a ladder appear for her to climb up onto her bike? Or alternatively, the lulz of a huge behemoth of a hero/villain on a circus-clown-sized mini cycle with air space between the body and the bike.
To see this effect, do the experiment where you create the smallest body you can and check out the GvE Jump-pack or a Raptor Pack and then do the same for the Hugest body you can to see the pack embedded in the body.
But, you say, they did it those times, why not just make one bike model and let the players decide whether to have that very disproportionate bike be their problem. I'm not sure why they did it with the packs, but given responses to that suggestions that they should allow clipping and other incongruities - it seems unlikely to happen.
Personally, I would think that a single size of bike model would be in fact pretty fugly
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
(My god how did this get 33 replies? lol)
Actually I presumed there'd be 3 bike models (at least female, male athletic, and male giant). I had a big hub-bub with a friend of mine yesterday about the amount of work it all is. And yeah, I know pretty much anything is a huge bunch of work. But... that's what the suggestion forum's for, right?
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(My god how did this get 33 replies? lol)
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EvilGeko, Me, a topic. I don't know what he and I have ever actually agreed on in full (or mostly.)
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Personally, I wouldnt include attacking while riding. It takes the Super-Bike from Cool alternate travel animation (which is how I envisioned the suggestion) into fully-realized game-mechanics expansion. At which point you go from Thats an awful lot of work for a cool visual effect to ARE YOU FRELLING HIGH!?! *chuckles*
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That depends on what you want it to be. If you want it as an alternative animation to Super Speed the way Flight Emotes are, this would be big problem. While Prestige Power Slide proves that we can edit our running animations, your restriction on not attacking while riding it would put it at a significant disadvantage to all other travel powers. While Super Speed, Super Jump and Fly suppress in their movement speed, they still allow you to attack. A travel power one step removed from a power suppression field, however... Is a great liability.
It's a question of stances. On the ground, players have a few that they have animations to go between, such as idle, ready, combat and so forth. In the air, they only have one - flying. For what you are suggesting, you would need AT LEAST one more, and given that they've generally refused to make any new ones, that's a pretty tall order. Essentially, we're looking at a completely new set of animations for each character rig, which doesn't strike me as something that would be approved.
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The pitch problem is definitely legitimate. Although if the rider was simply in a bike-riding emote position they wouldnt *necessarily* need to pitch, perhaps just the bike that was node-attached to them. Yes, thered be clipping issues. My Shoulder Mantle Cape clips like mad with my Wedding Pack Tuxedo, too. We live with clipping to a degree and hope it gets better. But the pitch problem does add a bit (I use bit here to denote an amount I cannot enumerate with any accuracy) more complexity to the bike itself.
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Player character feet already stick deep inside inclined surfaces and even simple stairs, and even that is pretty bad. A bike would be several times longer than a regular humanoid footprint and would as such stick over half-way in not just some, but MOST inclined surfaces. Remember, where we "are" in terms of height is determined by the centre of our footprint. If that centre is on a slope, then anything in the direction of the slope will clip. Think "the entire front tyre most of the time." Like I said before, they've been very careful to avoid ugly when they can and even those some items still clip, it's a minimal problem. Clipping half-way into terrain most of the time is rather more than just minor.
Furthermore, the engine cannot read terrain incline in such a way as to affect power animations. One could theorise that it could be fudged with some kind of PhysX device like what debris uses, but the fact is that power animations are hard-coded and animated. How the items summoned behave cannot be random and encounter-dependent, it has to be pre-defined, so a bike cannot conform to the terrain without the rider and the rider cannot conform to the terrain as the engine cannot do that currently.
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As for the size/footprint issue, Id opt to just enforce the footprint of the bike in regards to where it can and cant fit, and not allow it in buildings, bases, or missions. Water issues
as far as I know you cant superspeed run on water, so I cant imagine why you should be able to take your superbike into the water. Jumping and difficult terrain Id just give a pass to Youre Just That Good.
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Limiting where the bike can go creates a SEVERE limitation that would simply make it unworkable. Yes, you can stick to just main roads, but that still eliminates half the available land area, especially in City of Villains. Take a turn into an alley in Mercy and you'll immediately get stuck on a trash can or garbage container. Furthermore, you cannot limit the bike from going into water, as that would simply slash its usefulness by more than half. As any Super Speeder worth his salt will tell you, a lot of what they run through is water, be it in the form of ponds and lakes or the sea separating the islands. You can't even get to Primeva without getting wet or Super Jumping.
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Id think (and keep in mind, Im not a programmer or a CG artist. Im a 2D artist primarily, these are just that
What I would think) that mounting and dismounting the bike would just be a matter as simple as bike appears, you mount animation, and you dismount, bike disappears animation. Id stop to wonder if this was lazy or copping out
but then I remember the beaten bodies of our foes that regularly vanish into thin air.
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Appearing and disappearing items are nothing new in this game, but an animation for mounting and dismounting is. Not only would it have to be made, but it would also take time to animate, which is something no other travel power has to contend with. All the others toggle on and off instantly as needed. It would be quite a disadvantage if you root the player during mounting and dismounting and quite ugly if you don't.
The problem with vehicles in general and bikes in particular is that you have to impose so many limitations on how they behave and what you can do with them that by the time you're done, it's either largely pointless or horribly ugly. Yes, War Craft has mounts, but if you take one look at the terrain there, you'll realise that it IS pretty much just flat, open ground. Even buildings and dungeons are ludicrously spacious, as if built for people 20 feet tall. By contrast, our city is a lot smaller with many tight, cramped quarters, claustrophobic caves, small doors and corridors, sheer cliffs and rugged terrain. Regular Super Speed often has trouble navigating, let a lone a much-limited bike.
I'm not opposed to the idea. I just don't see any way for it to work in a good enough way.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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(My god how did this get 33 replies? lol)
Actually I presumed there'd be 3 bike models (at least female, male athletic, and male giant). I had a big hub-bub with a friend of mine yesterday about the amount of work it all is. And yeah, I know pretty much anything is a huge bunch of work. But... that's what the suggestion forum's for, right?
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The problem here is technical. Power effects DO NOT scale to character size or model. They are written in FX files and execute when the power is called with no regard for what it is that's calling it. For something to scale to the character, it would need to be a costume piece the same way weapons are, and that creates the problem of "costume item slots." BABs or Jay have said that they have 50-something, and that currently almost all of them are full. We're hoping they have one to spare for backpacks and jet packs, but generally, you'd need to add "bike customization" for just that one power, and I'm not sure that's feasible.
Granted, we already have weapon customization for Epic pools like Munitions Mastery and the various Mace Masteries, but bike customization seems a bit much. Even without the ability to customize them, they'd still take up an extra costume item slot, which is something the developers have traditionally been reluctant to do.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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OP's name gives this suggestion even more win.
...I forgot what experience means.
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One way to have them "somewhat" work.
For all that, I know some people *would* still like to pull up in front of a mission. So how do we do it?
A temporary power, based on the same tech from the Mac/Valkyrie pack Mission Teleporter. The temporary power would:
(a) be an invention - dropping from enemies. (A reward, because you saved... well, we'll get to that,)
(b) be a single use each time - you can only hold one at a time, not one of each, one total.
(c) use rarely used salvage, because... it's rarely used, and cheap. No Luck Charms here.
(d) come in multiple varieties.
How does this get around the various issues?
<ul type="square">[*]Terrain - It doesn't pass terrain. It just arrives.[*]It follows the same 'rules' as the mission teleporter - it's not indoors, doesn't go to contacts, etc. Just mission doors. [*]Customizing - It's not "your" vehicle. It's a temp power. You've called a cab, limo, or other transport.[*]Power animation - since you're skipping the space in between, no powers can be used 'til you arrive anyway. [/list]
The varieties?
<ul type="square">[*] Limo: Stereotypical slightly stretched black limo.[*] Checker cab: The classic yellow cab. [*] Alien "drop pod" thing. Just for giggles. [*] Burrower - Think mole machine, but not quite. [/list]Now, part of the issue with these are still animating your character getting in or out. How do we deal with these?
In: Who cares. You teleport away. We copy the Mission Teleporter power. Not as "cool," but less intensive to work on. And you can use it to leave from inside the mission, SG base, Pocket D or wherever. It's an MMORPg. RP that you called a cab.
Exiting: You don't get animated.
- Limo: Pulls up. NPC driver gets out, opens door, flashes (or just bright light) from inside (think papparazi or some such.) You appear.
- Cab: It's an old cab. It pulls up in a cloud of exhaust when it stops. When the exhaust cloud clears, you're there.
- Alien drop pod - *Plop* - Steam - It dissolves, you're there.
- Burrower - Pops "out of the ground," releases steam, you're there and it's back underground.
(Refinement of temp power idea from discussion with DragunBlud, among others.)
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This sounds like a valid way to get this to work. Might not have the same coolness as riding around but it would be more functional. Perhaps adding in a couple more ride types and adding the ability to transport a team/SG if you get the right recipe.
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Hmmm... and I got 6 different threads...
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If I search "in subject and body" I get 200. Nevertheless, I don't get anything recent other than this one.
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Hence the whole...
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4. Click the "In subject" radio button. This is a search, not a cute blonde in a bikini. Here, you want to ignore the body.
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...thing.
Angel Red
"We're heroes. Fighting injustice is the thing we do." ~Rebel Scum