Alternate Build expansion: Unlockable builds
By
Brasston_Sekyr,
Posted on: 2009-04-21 11:07 in Suggestions and Ideas
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I had an idea that I think could be pretty cool from a character concept/roleplaying angle. I love the idea of the alternate builds, so I can have solo me and team me. But itd be cool to expand on that. Maybe do like the Capes and Auras where when you hit 20,30,40,50 you can unlock further alternate builds, but rather than just re-choosing the powers from the power sets you already have (which is what the current alt build allows) you can pick a DIFFERENT powerset within your same AT.
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At which point, there is no game play reason to have an alt of the same AT. Plus, leveling up one powerset combination has no real similarity to leveling up a different powerset combination.
Most definitely /unsigned.
No, because once you do that, you get into unpleasant areas like being able to swap while in a Task Force.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
No... and I think I have a cut and paste reply for it, too.
Let me see... *rummages through chest* Old sandwich... gym socks... dead moth... What's Jimmy Hoffa doing in here? ... ahh, here we go. Yours is a slight variation on this, with a few problems of its own, but we'll start with this.
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Welcome to the forum. You have posted one of the oft repeated suggestions, "Give us a full respec."
First, NO.
Second, a tip on searching.
1. Click on "Search" up at the top of the forum.
2. On the left, under "Forum(s) to search," select "Suggestions and ideas."
3. On the right, Keyword Search Terms. This is probably where your problem was if you did search. Try the following, exactly as typed:
+respec -"re: "
This will search for anything with the string "Respec" in the title, including Full Respec, I don't get any respect, and Respec Trial. .The -re: portion of it removes replies, so you'll see the root of every thread that comes up, letting you see just how many threads there are on this. (The last helps for other subjects, as well.)
Be sure to put the space between the colon and last quote.
4. Click the "In subject" radio button. This is a search, not a cute blonde in a bikini. Here, you want to ignore the body.
5. Leave Username Search blank.
6. Date range, Newer Than, change the 1 to a 3, and the time to Months.
7. Result format doesn't matter. Click on "Submit."
Now, on to the topic at hand....
Why a full respec is not a good idea for COH.
So, you've played your Apathy/Dual Wet Noodle Tank to 50 and decided you don't like him. You've come to the forums and said "Why not let me completely respec the character!"
Well, people consider a "full respec" to be different things. I'm going to cover a complete and total character respec. If some of them don't apply, well, this comes up enough for this to be a copy and paste reply.
There are four things that define your character:
1. Archetype
2. Origin
3. Primary powerset
4. Secondary powerset
When people talk about a full respec, they're either talking about the powersets or the whole enchilada.
A Respec is short for respecification - altering what your character can do. This can be through reordering the levels you took powers, reassigning slots, and/or changing power pools. You'll note that none of this touches on changing the four listed items. The reason being that if any of those change, it's not the same character. A respec is not recreation or reimagining. It's tweaking your character a bit.
Now, let's go through some of these "full respecs."
Primary/Secondary
You're sure to hear this repeated a good bit - Just because you've played one set, doesn't mean you know how to play them all.
For instance, my namesake tank is a Fire/Superstrength tank. I know how he plays. The most similar powerset to him at the time of writing is Dark Armor. It's resistance based, it has no knockback protection, it has a damage aura, a self heal that does damage - it even has a self rez as its tier9.
They don't play anything alike. (I can say this, because I also have a version that's DA/SS.) Fire has no Psi protection. It has no stealth. Burn has a far different effect than Oppressive Gloom, and nothing similar to Cloak of Fear. It calls for a thoroughly different style of play. With Fire, I can leave my toggles on and go to town. With Dark Armor, I have to be selective, or the times I have to herd stragglers (for instance) won't work exceptionally well. Dark Armor also does not have anything like Consume to help out with Endurance - that's in Dark Melee.
With "similar" sets being that different - try Fire vs Stone. Or Invulnerability. You now have a set at or near 50 (when most people seem to mention wanting this - "I have a 50 that...") that you don't know how to slot effectively (which means you'll be doing *at least* one more respec) and don't know how to play effectively.
That's just changing *one* side of the equation. Now add in, say, going from Stone Melee to Dark Melee. Different effects, with *very* different affects on your survivability. And you won't know how to slot that, either, or how well they synergize.
Similarly, a Stormie plays vastly differently from an Empath, or a Dark, or a Rad. Earth Control is nothing like Illusion. Combo-chasing with Dual Blades won't help you with Martial Arts.
How do I know that this ends up being a mess?
Beta testing. The devs have, on rare occasion, bumped up characters to specific levels. The most notable was when Recluse's Victory came out for testing. Everyone was made level 40 - and it was a *mess.* Sure, people made copies of their own characters, and those worked out. Then there were those (many, many of those) who said "Hey, I've never had a X/Y before, I'll make one of those!"
Like I said, it was a mess. You could very easily tell who had done that versus making copies of characters they knew.
Now, yes, over time you'll learn your powerset - but in the meantime, you're not going to be very effective, or very happy.
Archetype
Now, given what I just said about powersets, imagine a *whole different AT.* Your tank is now an Empath? Really? You know how to survive as a Blaster because you played a Scrapper? And don't even get me started on epics.
If *sets* are that different, Archetype is that times ten.
Impact on enhancements
IOs are a big part of the game right now. Think about IO'ing out your character. You get your KB protection, sets and the like, potentially spending millions (or more) on finishing up these sets, or working on merits or whatnot.
Now, you change your primary - again, we'll take a tank - from a resistance based one to a defense based one.
Guess what is now useless to you. You *may* have a power to stick that resist set in, somewhere, but now you're defense based - and those resist sets dont' work for you any more. That Knockback set isn't taken any more. It's even worse when you say you want to switch AT - what is a Blaster going to do with a resist set? What is a Scrapper going to do with Sting of the Manticore or Malaise's Illusions?
This isn't even touching on the fact that *you could only retain ten enhancements.* That's 1 2/3 six-slotted powers.
And you'd have nobody to blame for all that lost time and INF but yourself...
Origin
Origin holds a strange place in this list. I'm just going to touch on it briefly.
Origin used to matter *vastly,* back in pre-beta. It determined how many powers you could learn and how skilled you could get with them. The system was scrapped, and for a long time it was mostly an RP item, as well as determining which enhancements you could use.
It now has *some* impact in the game with some temp powers - the "helper" power you get at level 1 (throwing knives, taser, mutagen, etc.) as well as some of the vet powers. The main impact, though, would be if you'd equipped with DOs or SOs, with the lost INF. That said, you would be able to get some of it back. Origin's probably the least of the problems with a full respec. Though some would, of course, complain that they no longer get a damage bonus or what have you - and who knows what the devs may do with this in the future.
Gameplay
There are also two other things to consider.
1. The game is designed around alts.
Seriously. If this were Guild Wars, for instance, with severely limited slots, I could see wanting to do a complete respec. But by default, you can make over 100 characters before feeling a pinch - and can purchase up to 24 additional slots per server, if you so choose. Don't like one set, make some others and try them out.
2. It's just not that hard to level.
Seriously... it's not. With half debt inside missions, patrol XP, double XP weekends, XP smoothing, XP adjustments (typically up,) debt reduction everywhere... it just *isnt'* hard to level. And levelling "honestly" means you're learning your powersets, how they work with each other and others and hopefully how to use them best - which will only make you a stronger player.
In closing, let me just say "No. Roll an alt."
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This would be pretty cool! I find myself attached to one powerset for an AT and want to branch into other powers but not abandon my character concept.
The progression aspect may be a little wonky to implement, though. Plus there may be some conflict with the epic sets.. but still variety is a good thing!
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This would be pretty cool! I find myself attached to one powerset for an AT and want to branch into other powers but not abandon my character concept.
The progression aspect may be a little wonky to implement, though. Plus there may be some conflict with the epic sets.. but still variety is a good thing!
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Variety is the reason we've got multiple character slots. There's no reason why you can't roleplay that the new character is simply you main character learning to use the newly acquired powers.
This is true.. maybe it's not a bad idea to put the security blanket away and just start from zero every now and then 
Good points Memphis *nods* and I whole heartedly agree that a FULL Respec where people could swap between AT would create a terrible mess. Furthermore you are quite correct in the differences between powers within the same AT. There are huge differences in how they play, an yes you will end up with the idiots who keep trying to play the new powers just like they did the old powers. Even for those of us who dont intend to do that there would still be a learning curve of course, its only to be expected. Ive tried out most of the power sets, as I have terrible altitis. Infact thats part of what made me think of this. I have tons of toons, but only a few that have clicked and Ive stuck with, not because I didnt like the power but because the character didnt speak to me, and like I said in the previous post there have been a couple of those that Ive reached level 20-30 and gone I really love this character, but the powers just dont fit
. and then Im faced with either playing the character with that nagging problem, or re-rolling from scratch. If they are level 25 or below
not a biggie
you can get to level ten pretty quickly and to 15 in a reasonable amount of time
from 15 on up though things start to slow down, especially because I tend to solo or play on small teams (usually with my wife) and I dont try to PowerLevel. Considering that Im a workin dad who pulls 40+ hours a week and has a house with four kids, finding the time to re-roll a character Ive already spent 6 months playing up to 35 with a new power set is a really big time commitment.
I guess I feel like saying no you cant do this because some people would be bad at it or may screw up is like saying No one who has grown up playing football can ever play baseball because Jimmy is unfamiliar with the rules and tools and will possibly hit people in the head with the bat. In real life (I know, this is a game), Jimmy would either find a mentor to help him learn how to use the bat, or would quickly find himself sitting on the bench, not being permitted to play that particular game, but not everyone would be banned. Now, its true, even with a mentor, Jimmy will likely not ever be picked up to play pro Baseball since thats not what he spent his early life playing, but he could pick up a bat and play with his friends every once in a while right?
As to avoid doing the power changes in the midst of a mission or a TF seems pretty easily controlled.. Make it like the current alt build where you have to go to a trainer to switch, or put a limit on how many times/how often you can change your build (once per hour or something like that), heck, even make it so that you CANT change build while active in a mission or TF, only between. *shrugs*
Ive read over the forums a lot as thats something I can do during my breaks at work (though granted not every thing of course *chuckles* that would take a lifetime) and I see a lot of pretty interesting ideas shot down for no reason other than someone would be a jerk if we gave them this. The argument that something shouldnt be done solely because some one might abuse/misuse/be bad at it just doesnt seem like that good of an argument to me. Just because a lot of people can and do abuse the MA for farming for example doesnt mean we all do, and it shouldnt be taken away from everyone just because a portion of the population misuse it *shrug*
It was just an idea. If the Devs have said no then thats that.
*beats head against the desk*
No matter what you try to call it, this is basically a powerset respec. The devs have said, in very simple terms, we will never be able to change AT, powersets, or origin once a character is made.
*watches wikked beat head*
That felt unnecessary. *shrug*
Alright, well, question answered. Thanks for the responses gang.
I had an idea that I think could be pretty cool from a character concept/roleplaying angle. I love the idea of the alternate builds, so I can have solo me and team me. But itd be cool to expand on that. Maybe do like the Capes and Auras where when you hit 20,30,40,50 you can unlock further alternate builds, but rather than just re-choosing the powers from the power sets you already have (which is what the current alt build allows) you can pick a DIFFERENT powerset within your same AT. So that way, when you hit the ancient Rome story arch you can take your Assault Riffle blaster and turn him into an Archery blaster to match the time period better. Or your Mage character can start with Fire powers, then as he grows and develops he can unlock further powers (builds) giving him access to ice, electricity, darkness, storms (depending on archetype Blaster, controller, so on). From a storytelling/roleplaying perspective it seems that would open up some nice options for character development. Im the kind of person that Id end up linking the different builds to my different costume sets. Possibly even have the character have multiple personalities where each one controls a different power within the archetype (stuff like that is pretty abundant in comics anyway)
Plus, theres another quality of life/game play side to it too. There have been a couple of times now that Ive created a character, really enjoyed the characters and worked it up to level 20 or so, by which time Ive found that while I enjoy the character as an individual and his/her story, the powers I picked (usually the secondary) dont really fit how the character has ended up developing in the organic world of the game, or I dont really like the way the power works with my primary. In this case a Respec or an Alt build as they are are no good because Im still stuck with the powers Ive first picked so the only option I have is to re-roll the character, which is a pain.
Just some thoughts on something that I think would be cool making it unlockable as you build the levels as well as restricting it to only picking new powers within your chosen archetype would possibly help keep it from being abused (no Tankmages), and if you made it a mission based thing like the capes and auras then people could choose if they want to do it or not (most of my toons dont bother with capes *chuckle*)