Some new travel ideas (vehicle, and ant-style)
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-03-30 10:10 in Suggestions and Ideas
Just because you only see it one way, doesn't mean it can't exist another...
Once upon a time, there was this guy, and he said the Earth orbited the Sun. But because everyone believed the Sun orbited the Earth, they shunned him. But just because they believed in a way of things, doesn't mean another way doesn't exist.
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The ONLY way I see "vehicles" working is in a specialized, outdoor mission, with *all* player powers disabled and just some set attacks in it. Not a travel power, but an in-mission temp power, in a mission designed for it.
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I'd accept that. I think that making it a Transform power, a-la Kheldians, would be by far the most sensible solution for a large vehicle like that. However, I'm not so sure I see why it can't work just the same in Safeguard/Mayhem missions and non-instanced maps (zones). Heck, even instanced city zones I'm sure must be flagged for a different tile or terrain type than, say, cave missions.
As far as Longbow fliers indoors -- they do only spawn outside (that I've seen, anyway). But they will do pretty goofy things to follow a target, the same as any other mob. I'm reasonably sure with a little bit of patience, you could, for instance, drag one into the Warburg tunnels from the Longbow ship. (Edit: By the way, I think the spawn 'rules' for Longbow fliers are that they only spawn in places they are specifically placed. If there were spawn rules that could be applied to them, it seems like it would be a matter of only a few days' work to apply those rules to Sky Skiffs.)
And as others have mentioned, there are a variety of smaller vehicles that would require minimal amounts of work -- some of which we may see when the long-awaited 'back item' section expansion is done.
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Just because you only see it one way, doesn't mean it can't exist another...
Once upon a time, there was this guy, and he said the Earth orbited the Sun. But because everyone believed the Sun orbited the Earth, they shunned him. But just because they believed in a way of things, doesn't mean another way doesn't exist.
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I've given my reasons for my objections. You have anything to add?
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obviously you still have a chip on your shoulder when i disagreed with the changes you wanted to make to FA.
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If I kept a chip on my shoulder towards every person who disagreed with me, I'd already be in jail. (Edit: Hell, is there anyone in this forum who hasn't disagreed with me at least once? Probably ten times or more?) No, I think that what I said pretty much sums it up -- every suggestion thread I've read lately that you've posted in, you've shot down with the same "search the forums!" comment. It's not helpful and, frankly, downright annoying... little better than posting "/jranger" to everything you see.
And you were so polite only six weeks ago! Do you see what the forums do to a person? ;p
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Just because you only see it one way, doesn't mean it can't exist another...
Once upon a time, there was this guy, and he said the Earth orbited the Sun. But because everyone believed the Sun orbited the Earth, they shunned him. But just because they believed in a way of things, doesn't mean another way doesn't exist.
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I've given my reasons for my objections. You have anything to add?
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Apparently not. Wouldn't matter anyway, would it.
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The ONLY way I see "vehicles" working is in a specialized, outdoor mission, with *all* player powers disabled and just some set attacks in it. Not a travel power, but an in-mission temp power, in a mission designed for it.
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I'd accept that. I think that making it a Transform power, a-la Kheldians, would be by far the most sensible solution for a large vehicle like that. However, I'm not so sure I see why it can't work just the same in Safeguard/Mayhem missions and non-instanced maps (zones). Heck, even instanced city zones I'm sure must be flagged for a different tile or terrain type than, say, cave missions.
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My main objection with "anywhere" (touched on below, as well) is that there are places they just make no sense - and not even in a "well, it's a comic book" way. They'd just look *silly.*
Note I'm talking vehicles in general, but for every vehicle someone comes up with - there's an issue, and then the OP or someone starts adding "Well, then we can make X limitation," which just makes them... worse. Imagine, for example, if you couldn't use Superspeed over/in water. There's no surface for you to run on (and yeah, I know, theoretically you could "run so fast you run over the water," but we don't reach that speed by the in game numbers) ... so if you have to go north to Scylla in Talos, say, you have to swim at normal speed.
Now make it a car. Or motorcycle. There are *huge* tracts of land... er, areas of the game that they'd be sorely impractical. Yes, I can use Superspeed in the Shard and it has problems... but I can pick up a jet pack. Or remember to turn it off while using the geysers - and just flip it back on to zip to the next one. How does it make sense for a car/motorcycle to do this?
And, again... there's the issue of all (and I do mean all) the powers. As a full-on travel power, how do you deal with all the powers players use? Let it look... ok, I'll say it, downright stupid? Disable them all? (Forget PVP.)
Edit: As far as being tagged for terrain type? Have you looked in the MA? While they could, I suppose, add the tags - they'd be map-wide, from what we see in there. So if you, say, flag the Skyway City safeguard/mayhem for "no vehicle travel," it'd be that way throughout, not just indoors.
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As far as Longbow fliers indoors -- they do only spawn outside (that I've seen, anyway). But they will do pretty goofy things to follow a target, the same as any other mob. I'm reasonably sure with a little bit of patience, you could, for instance, drag one into the Warburg tunnels from the Longbow ship.
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Which, to a point, is still an "outdoor" area.
I'd actually like to see it - get people to clear the Arachnoids, and start taunting one into the Web proper and see if it goes through the doors or has the same sort of size restraint. (I don't mean the outside blast doors, those are wide enough. IIRC the inner doors are smaller and/or barred in the middle.) I suspect it would get stuck, and not be able to enter past a certain point... a restriction no other travel power has to worry about.
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(Edit: By the way, I think the spawn 'rules' for Longbow fliers are that they only spawn in places they are specifically placed. If there were spawn rules that could be applied to them, it seems like it would be a matter of only a few days' work to apply those rules to Sky Skiffs.)
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You're probably right about placement. I really, really wish they'd set the skiffs not to spawn indoors. They do look just flat out ridiculous inside those tiny side rooms in Terra Volta... and it's commented on *each and every time.*
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And as others have mentioned, there are a variety of smaller vehicles that would require minimal amounts of work -- some of which we may see when the long-awaited 'back item' section expansion is done.
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Remember what they say about "only requires X amount of work." 
More variety in backpacks and wings, so you can have some other sort of "jet pack?" Hey, fine... not really a *vehicle,* though. Same with skateboard types - the animation is somewhat in place with Prestige Power Slide. Not sure what altering the character to be on top of a skateboard would do - it would have to be taken into consideration for things like Thunder Strike, Stalagmites and Foot Stomp, though. Which, yeah, means reanimating.
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Just because you only see it one way, doesn't mean it can't exist another...
Once upon a time, there was this guy, and he said the Earth orbited the Sun. But because everyone believed the Sun orbited the Earth, they shunned him. But just because they believed in a way of things, doesn't mean another way doesn't exist.
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I've given my reasons for my objections. You have anything to add?
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Apparently not. Wouldn't matter anyway, would it.
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You see this thing I'm having with Jack in this very thread?
It's called a discussion. Contrasting and debating differing ideas and viewpoints. Yes, it is also known, technically, as an argument (see Monty Python's "Argument Sketch" for an appropriate definition.) Neither of us are saying "This is the way it is, you're wrong and an idiot!" I'm posting from prior discussions, pointing out various problems I see with the ideas, he's posting possible workarounds, and the idea's getting hammered out.
I don't think it'll really get farther than other vehicle discussions (and the issues I mentioned with the last two earth powers haven't been touched,) but neither of us, despite disagreement, are saying the other's points don't matter. Yes, even with my cut-paste answers. They're meant to shorten discussion, teach the poster what's been brought up about them before, and likely prevent *heated* arguments by giving a more advanced point in the discussion to talk about or alter ideas with.
Edit: In other words, if you *do* see a flaw or something supporting, yes, it matters. Post it. I'm under no delusion that I don't potentially have blinders on. In fact, I'm modifying the stock reply here as I'd intended to earlier, but didn't, for the "one way I see it actually working in limited instances."
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use the search function. vehicle threads pop up once a week at least. read them before making a suggestion.
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Sharker_Quint, please stop repeating that. You yourself clearly have not. The counter-arguments you're giving have already been brought up in those threads and were addressed (and for many, dismissed) -- and yet we're having to repeat them for your benefit. It's not productive for you to repeat "search!," and hypocritical besides.
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You are absoulutely correct. Whenever the subject of vehicles pops up (or server mergers, or raising the level cap, or world PVP), there are a plethora of stock answers as to why it is a bad idea and unlikely to ever happen (so stock that posters like Memphis Bill have the replies saved somewhere so they can copy and paste them instead of typing it all out, again and again).
And you are also absolutely correct about those stock replies quickly being dismissed......
.....by the people arguing for the suggestion.
I have yet to see any of those stock replies disproven or invalidated.
Ever.
Ever.
Ever.
and, just for emphasis...
Ever.
Every single one of those stock replies is as true now as it was the first time those replies were posted.
1) The game engine can't handle it.
2) Vehicles would look ridiculous indoors.
3) The players would not be satisfied with one model for any vehicle type, so the Devs would need to add a Vehicle Creator to the Character Creator.
4) The developers would have to redo every single power animation for each type of vehicle.
5) Pathing issues would need to be addressed.
These are the stock replies. Until you can address these issues, vehicles are not viable. You may "dismiss" these arguments as often as you like, but they are still perfectly valid. Your dismissal of an argument does not invalidate it, it merely shows the weakness of your own position.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
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The games called City of Heroes not Grand Theft Auto.
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Blast you beat me to it.
And last thing we need is another tool to grief people in WW.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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I have yet to see any of those stock replies disproven or invalidated.
Ever.
1) The game engine can't handle it.
2) Vehicles would look ridiculous indoors.
3) The players would not be satisfied with one model for any vehicle type, so the Devs would need to add a Vehicle Creator to the Character Creator.
4) The developers would have to redo every single power animation for each type of vehicle.
5) Pathing issues would need to be addressed.
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Those are the objections you've never seen invalidated? What?
1) The game engine obviously can handle vehicles; they're a part of the game for NPC groups already.
2) Large vehicles probably would. Is this a technical objection? Because if it's about taste, there's no way I could ever invalidate it, and asking me to do so is disingenuous at best.
But from my point of view: Also, Burn looks ridiculous while swimming, Strangler looks ridiculous used on many footless flying enemies, Stone Cages looks ridiculous when there's very large monsters in it, and Spines looks ridiculous with a wide variety of costume options. I suppose when there is a dedicated anti-ridiculous campaign instituted for character powers, I'd be concerned enough to propose that vehicles not be allowed in indoor instances. Bill already explained why this wouldn't be a problem in many cases: Large vehicles can't fit through doors, so players simply wouldn't want to use them indoors.
3) 'k.
4) What? Why on earth would they do something like that? Wouldn't it be much easier to make any enclosed vehicle just disable the character's powers?
5) How To Resolve Pathing Issues With a Car: Step 1: jumpheight -100000%, fly -100. Step 2: Have coffee. If you want to experience this for yourself now, get someone to blast you with web grenade while you've got Super Speed and Combat Jumping on. You will not be able to go anywhere a car could not. You will be able to go over broken terrain and water, but, well, so does Batman's car. Edit: And the A-Team van, if you want something even more natural-origin than the Bat-Car. I'd comment on the Dukes of Hazzard, but then we'd have to allow jumping. =(
Now, you didn't actually say it, but a much better objection than 5 is, "Characters can strafe and stop suddenly, while most cars cannot, at least not the way characters can." And then I would say: "Yes! That is a good objection, and I'm glad you copied it from Bill's post! Because I've thought of an answer for that as well: The drift/inertia mechanics used for Flight and characters standing on ice causes behavior very similar to that of a car's. It would still look kind of silly, but I think it's possible to improve it. When you move, the game preserves direction and orientation, so you continue to face the same way while possibly moving at an angle to that. However, when you use a power, the game forces you to face the direction of your target. Using effects very similar to these and a lot of man-hours, it should be possible to cause a vehicle to always try to face the direction it's moving. Is it possible this could cause some sudden weird orientation changes that look funny? Abso-friggin-lutely. See 'dedicated anti-ridiculousness campaign,' above. Your character walking already occasionally moves in very goofy ways. Sorry, but for any multiplayer game, these little sacrifices have to be made."
And then there's the Ultimate Objection:
6) This would take a lot of care and a fair amount of time to do well.
And my answer:
Yes. It would.
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And, again... there's the issue of all (and I do mean all) the powers. As a full-on travel power, how do you deal with all the powers players use? Let it look... ok, I'll say it, downright stupid? Disable them all? (Forget PVP.)
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I don't think vehicles would make a good power pool... Excepting a couple of the more novel "hoverboard/slide" pool suggestions that have been made, I never really have (and even those would require power customization to be worth a damn). I know that's how this thread originally began, and I gave kind of the standard objections at the top. But it's obviously evolved since then.
I think that craftable or accolade/earned powers make the most sense for this. I think, also, that it could be done much better in a single player game. I don't think multiplayer games will for a long time yet (in Internet terms) be able to support the kind of robustness that would support fully articulated skeletons so that, say, swinging a katana from the back of a motorcycle, or even simply twirling a staff, would be a relatively trivial addition to make. CoX and all of the other games of this sort have to sidestep and hack these issues, putting up with immersion compromises to permit customization and fun factor. I think that's obvious to both of us; the question is simply where we draw the line.
Hey, I'm happy with the A-Team van. Sure, it's goofy; a bit over the top. Did you see that animation where that guy knocked a Hellion off the roof of a building and he flew for what, in game terms, was almost a mile?
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I have yet to see any of those stock replies disproven or invalidated.
Ever.
1) The game engine can't handle it.
2) Vehicles would look ridiculous indoors.
3) The players would not be satisfied with one model for any vehicle type, so the Devs would need to add a Vehicle Creator to the Character Creator.
4) The developers would have to redo every single power animation for each type of vehicle.
5) Pathing issues would need to be addressed.
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Those are the objections you've never seen invalidated? What?
1) The game engine obviously can handle vehicles; they're a part of the game for NPC groups already.
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... as NPCs themselves.
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2) Large vehicles probably would. Is this a technical objection? Because if it's about taste, there's no way I could ever invalidate it, and asking me to do so is disingenuous at best.
But from my point of view: Also, Burn looks ridiculous while swimming, Strangler looks ridiculous used on many footless flying enemies, Stone Cages looks ridiculous when there's very large monsters in it, and Spines looks ridiculous with a wide variety of costume options. I suppose when there is a dedicated anti-ridiculous campaign instituted for character powers, I'd be concerned enough to propose that vehicles not be allowed in indoor instances.
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There's degrees of it. Burn? Napalm, at least some varieties, can burn underwater, as can other incendiary devices. Someone who can manipulate fire, or develop fire-based weaponry, should have no issues with it. Strangler (by the enemies, I'm assuming COT ghosts, for instance) still, as I recall, reaches up to their torsos, so it could "grab" soemthing. Stone Cages scales to what it's enclosing (which makes sense - and Frostbite does the same thing. Actually, many powers do this.) And costumes... well, I can point out several costumes a night that look ridiculous with or without spines.
Regardless, though, each of these instances is... frankly not that - I'm not going to say "immersion breaking" as just *distracting in a WTF way* as having a car slide up to you or appear in a cave.
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4) What? Why on earth would they do something like that? Wouldn't it be much easier to make any enclosed vehicle just disable the character's powers?
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Which is why I'm leaning on "The only really feasable/acceptable way I see is a temp power for some situations." Otherwise, if someone had this as a *pool* - which is how it's normally presented, as in the OP - it's... well, horribly gimped, with no real counteracting advantages.
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5) How To Resolve Pathing Issues With a Car: Step 1: jumpheight -100000%, fly -100. Step 2: Have coffee. If you want to experience this for yourself now, get someone to blast you with web grenade while you've got Super Speed and Combat Jumping on. You will not be able to go anywhere a car could not. You will be able to go over broken terrain and water, but, well, so does Batman's car.
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Two words. Shadow shard.
Part of the issue, as well, is one of looks. Go get hit by a car in game... one of two things happen. If you get hit, you get pushed. If it hits something else - it goes directly through. (You do this as well with many boats.)
Now, with a car, you're going to be wider and longer than any character. You're going to have a higher chance of "catching" those other vehicles, civilians and the like... and getting shoved around, having to "turn off" your car and "turn it on" again.
And let's not even get into taking shortcuts. SS and SJ, you can run between buildings - in some instances, you have to to reach a contact or a glowie. With a car, you won't fit. You can hop over fences... with a car, you couldn't. You'd have to find the one specific opening in the fence, assuming the alley or whatnot is *wide* enough to let you do so, and go back around. And if there's something you needed to fight? (Think of a SS'er getting into the TV trial - up the side, around the catwalks, etc.) Turn off your "car" again.
You'd be forced to stop - or get shoved backward - far more often. Honestly, it's *really broken* as a 'travel power. '
Not sure how the drift/facing you mentioned would turn out... it's a question of feel there, to me.
Hey, I replied to your earlier post as an edit to my previous post. Since it's an edit and on the previous page, I figured this placeholder might be appropriate; it addresses some (most? all?) of those points.
And I can expand my list of things I think ridiculous pretty much indefinitely: Activating Leadership pool toggles while swimming or flying, getting hit with Frost Shield while using Fire Shield (which is just all kinds of ridiculous), and so on and so forth. The point isn't that explanations can be found for how all these things might happen -- maybe your car has a teleport beacon in the Paragon hospital network that takes it to you. Maybe it's inflatable. I mean, we've had practice coming up with explanations for ridiculous things happening for years now. ("Yes, I'm a natural character that flies... you see, I was given this invisible jet...") The point is that there is no way to legitimately tell someone that the things they find ridiculous are in fact not so. Unless it's goofy in some sort of immediate, practical, technical way -- a car that bunny hops, for instance -- I feel like adding it to a list of "irresolvable" issues is just a tad artificial.
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Two words. Shadow shard.
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Also two words: You fall.
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Two words. Shadow shard.
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Also two words: You fall.
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LOL. Ok. Though it does highlight (to me, and you do somewhat mention this) the issue with having this as a "pool" versus "temp" power.
There are also, as we've sort of seen in this thread, a lot of definitions of "Vehicle." Car, obviously. A flyer of some sort avoids many of the car issues, but still shares some of them (indoor maps, small spaces, collision results.) Some people would call a jetpack/rocketpack a "vehicle" - I don't, typically - or even a skateboard.
It's easier, in some ways, to look at each as a case-by-case basis. And some things are less... jarring, I suppose, for one thing than another. Call something like the Raider jetpack a "vehicle?" Well, I don't, but since we don't have the fineness of movement that would show me, say, landing for a sec, slipping sideways through a door, and flying on the other side, I'm fine with that... where I'm really, REALLY bothered by a car or Longbow/Raider Flyer. Or the water (or Shard like zones) - no issue for a flyer, where it's just *odd* for a car. (Just as an example.)
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I have yet to see any of those stock replies disproven or invalidated.
Ever.
1) The game engine can't handle it.
2) Vehicles would look ridiculous indoors.
3) The players would not be satisfied with one model for any vehicle type, so the Devs would need to add a Vehicle Creator to the Character Creator.
4) The developers would have to redo every single power animation for each type of vehicle.
5) Pathing issues would need to be addressed.
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Those are the objections you've never seen invalidated? What?
1) The game engine obviously can handle vehicles; they're a part of the game for NPC groups already.
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Which ones? Longbow? Sky Raiders? Neither has a unit that actually gets into the Chaser or Skiff, nor can the "pilot" be targeted. I put it to you that the Sky Skiffs and Longbow Chasers are not "vehicles," but individual enemy units. Didn't Bill already point that out in this thread?
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2) Large vehicles probably would. Is this a technical objection? Because if it's about taste, there's no way I could ever invalidate it, and asking me to do so is disingenuous at best.
But from my point of view: Also, Burn looks ridiculous while swimming, Strangler looks ridiculous used on many footless flying enemies, Stone Cages looks ridiculous when there's very large monsters in it, and Spines looks ridiculous with a wide variety of costume options. I suppose when there is a dedicated anti-ridiculous campaign instituted for character powers, I'd be concerned enough to propose that vehicles not be allowed in indoor instances. Bill already explained why this wouldn't be a problem in many cases: Large vehicles can't fit through doors, so players simply wouldn't want to use them indoors.
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No other Travel Power in the game has these kind of "limitations." Bill wasn't explaining that it "wouldn't be a problem in many cases," He was further explaining one of the problems. You are absolutely correct. Many players wouldn't want to use them indoors with these limitations. But they would still want a "Jackmobile." Why saddle their Travel Power choice with limitations that other players don't have?
But, for the sake of argument, let's say that the Devs put in the tech for cars and vans and helicopters and jets and motorcycles. In the end, the players realize that motorcycles are the only ones that they can use indoors, and everyone respecs into motorcycle. All the time the Devs spent programming cars and vans and helicopters and jets was just wasted.
But can you imagine the outcry if the Devs gave us motorcycles as the only vehicle option?
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3) 'k.
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So, you accept the argument that the players would want to be able to customize their vehicles, and we would need a vehicle creator in order to do so?
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4) What? Why on earth would they do something like that? Wouldn't it be much easier to make any enclosed vehicle just disable the character's powers?
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And non-enclosed vehicles? Motorcycles, convertibles, ultralights, hang gliders, go carts? Bill's argument about vehicle types selecting themselves out due to power limitations applies again here. I discover that my Ferrari can only get me from point A to point B, and I need to toggle off my travel power any time I wish to engage in battle (where does it go, by the way? just vanishes into thin air while I fight?). But I don't need to do this with a motorcycle? Forget the Ferrari then, I'll take the Ducati instead. Dev time putting the Ferrari into the game wasted, again.
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5) How To Resolve Pathing Issues With a Car: Step 1: jumpheight -100000%, fly -100. Step 2: Have coffee. If you want to experience this for yourself now, get someone to blast you with web grenade while you've got Super Speed and Combat Jumping on. You will not be able to go anywhere a car could not. You will be able to go over broken terrain and water, but, well, so does Batman's car. Edit: And the A-Team van, if you want something even more natural-origin than the Bat-Car. I'd comment on the Dukes of Hazzard, but then we'd have to allow jumping. =(
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So, my car can still go up stairs, navigate ramps that are too narrow for it in outdoor areas, and use elevators (like the ones found in Faultline and Grandville)? My mistake for not typing "Resolve movement and pathing issues." Some of the movement issues, you point out below.
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Now, you didn't actually say it, but a much better objection than 5 is, "Characters can strafe and stop suddenly, while most cars cannot, at least not the way characters can." And then I would say: "Yes! That is a good objection, and I'm glad you copied it from Bill's post! Because I've thought of an answer for that as well: The drift/inertia mechanics used for Flight and characters standing on ice causes behavior very similar to that of a car's. It would still look kind of silly, but I think it's possible to improve it. When you move, the game preserves direction and orientation, so you continue to face the same way while possibly moving at an angle to that. However, when you use a power, the game forces you to face the direction of your target. Using effects very similar to these and a lot of man-hours, it should be possible to cause a vehicle to always try to face the direction it's moving. Is it possible this could cause some sudden weird orientation changes that look funny? Abso-friggin-lutely. See 'dedicated anti-ridiculousness campaign,' above. Your character walking already occasionally moves in very goofy ways. Sorry, but for any multiplayer game, these little sacrifices have to be made."
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It was in Bill's post, and movement issues are one of those things that would need to be resolved. In the end, we (the playerbase) would want the vehicles to move realisticly. That includes skidding, fishtailing, spin outs, catching air and crashes. Make a post in General about the way a female character runs with a weapon in her hand, and witness the nerdrage about how she runs like a man. It is a little thing (in my opinion) that completely breaks immersion for others and makes a female character with weapons totally unplayable for them. Expand this out if the vehicles did not move naturally.
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And then there's the Ultimate Objection:
6) This would take a lot of care and a fair amount of time to do well.
And my answer:
Yes. It would.
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Absolutely correct. Resolving all of the above issues would be too much work for too little reward. I'd rather have the Devs working on things like new powersets, zones, storylines, ATs, bug fixes, costumes, and critters than I would have them devoting those resources to three or four new "limited" Travel powersets when the ones that we already have in game are perfectly serviceable.
Our Devs have a history of trying to do it right, or not doing it at all. In my opinion, vehicles is one of those things that needs to be done right, and I don't feel that the resources needed to do so are a worthwhile use of our developers' time.
Would I love to have the "Lightcycle?" You betcha! But I don't think it takes priority over a million other things they could be doing.
Oh yeah, which arguments did you invalidate again? In fact, I'm pretty sure you helped the argument against more than you did the argument for.
Thanks.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
True. I think for many of those reasons, putting in Fliers/Chasers/Skiffs/Space Rowboats would be a lot easier than putting in cars. You pointed out earlier than we don't really have to worry about a Longbow Flier going through a door; it's too big. Once you're not dealing with clipping issues and the like, the immersion issues start to become tractable -- I gave some examples above. It shrinks, maybe, or it's part of the Mysterious And Loosely Defined Teleport Network! (By the way. Manticore supposedly hacked it to gain teleportation powers, right? Why was that not immediately standard issue for PPD?)
And I think I outlined a way cars could work. Sure, they could drive over water; they're superhero cars. It's weird, but plausible, and weirdness wears off with familiarity. (Usually. So, Cimerora is supposed to be kept some kind of secret from the Ouroboros folks, right? At least, that's what whoever briefs you on it says. So why can we use the Oro portals down there?)
Side note:
It bears mentioning, though I did so only in passing before, that I'm completely and totally ignoring PVP for these arguments.
That's a section of the playerbase - and I don't mean just the "hardcore, in the arena every night," but even the casuals who just hop into the zones, a much larger section - that would not put up with the sort of limitations we're throwing around. There's a reason SJ and SS are pretty much the only "acceptable" travel powers (even before the Suppression bit smacked Teleport in PVP to a non-power.)
Those that primarily PVP would not touch this (as a pool) with a whole rack of ten foot poles, even as temp powers (well, actually... an all-temp-power-flyer fight might be interesting, but other than that...)
Those that casually PVP, when they find they can't fight back or are so outclassed by the SS/SJ'ers, either won't go back in the zones or will drop this (again, as a pool) so fast the sound of cars crashing into the junkyard will sound like the 1812 Overture.
Yup. Firmly agreed. (Also firmly agreed that making a Kheldian-like transformation into a Flier and duking it out in the Arena would be an awesome mode. Also giant robots. You didn't say them, but now you will think about them.)
On the flip side, another advantage to these as crafted/accolade powers is that they offer some build freedom to those who rely on them, which to me fits very well with the "pure natural" concept.
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Yup. Firmly agreed. (Also firmly agreed that making a Kheldian-like transformation into a Flier and duking it out in the Arena would be an awesome mode. Also giant robots. You didn't say them, but now you will think about them.)
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>.>
*points to new suggestion post while you were typing.*
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Bill posted his standard reply earlier in the thread. But what's kind of funny is that even in it, he already addresses some of the vehicles that are already in the game. Why's it any more ridiculous for a player to have, say, a Longbow Flier and fly it around to wacky places that it doesn't make a lot of sense to go to than it is for a Longbow to do it?
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And that's already answered.
Longbow doesn't have an Eagle or Nullifier hop into it - and last I checked, the Chasers weren't indoors. The Chaser is, itself, one large NPC, with a preset set of powers. It isn't, by the definition being used, a vehicle, any more than Terra or the Kronos Titan is.
The Sky Skiff is the only one you'll find indoors - and that's (a) silly looking and (b) usually stuck inside a room it can't get *out* of. (I'd add "C - probably a mistake," too, as it predates the Longbow Chaser. I'm assuming the Chaser has some set spawn rules that weren't developed when the Sky Skiffs were developed.)
Just think about where you see a Longbow Chaser - always flying outdoors. I have *yet* to see one indoors. They don't spawn in labs or bases. Even in instances, they're outdoors - patrolling outside a base or cargo ship.
Edit:
The ONLY way I see "vehicles" working is in a specialized, outdoor mission, with *all* player powers disabled and just some set attacks in it. Not a travel power, but an in-mission temp power, in a mission designed for it.