Attack Types vs Attack Damage
Great.
Let me reiterate Arcana's Guide to Defense. Original thought for the win!
'Understanding that you still have a lot to learn is key to the path to wisdom' - (Some guy somewhere, or maybe I just made it up, I don't know.)
Yes, basically Arcana's guide will cover everything about every aspect of accuracy, tohit, and defense. If this guide isn't in-depth enough, go to Arcanaville
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I'm going to drop the snarkiness and offer some genuine constructive criticism that you can take or you can leave:
-This is very difficult to read. Arcana's guide suffers the same problem. This is dry stuff and not easy to make interesting. There are too many parentheticals and quotation marks and numbers and percentages and parentheticals within brackets and symbols for this guide to flow. There are a lot of guides out there that have grammatical and spelling errors that do effectively get their point across because they were written in an entertaining manner.
-Inconsistencies. In the first half you are talking about attack types/vectors in regards to defense. In the second half you are talking about damage in regards to resistance. The difference between defense and resistance is seldom understood by novice players. Maybe a conversation about damage/attack types requires a discussion on Resistance vs Defense, this is very muddled in your report.
-Incorrect terms. If you mean NPC's or Minions then why say critters? There are no critters in CoX, critters are in other MMO's. This is confusing to the novice who will read your guide.
-Redundancies. This sentence appears twice in almost exactly the same wording "...exceptions include the Hamidon, which has no attack typing, and Mind Control, which are all typed with psionic attack only."
There's more but I'm not going to nit-pick every detail, nobody expects perfection.
On the positive (what I learned from you)
-I did not know toxic was not resisted (however I think that defense must decrease the chances of it actually landing.)
-I have never fully understood the mechanic of how damage and attacks are applied to the target.
You stated that your intentions were to concentrate and simplify the subject 'attack types vs damage'. This guide could benefit by asking yourself in the editorial phase "Would I want to read this crap?" I've read physicians reference material that was less confusing.
Good luck on version 2.
'Understanding that you still have a lot to learn is key to the path to wisdom' - (Some guy somewhere, or maybe I just made it up, I don't know.)
CoX uses the term "critters" quite a bit to refer to targetable NPCs. Specifically, the "effects" section of a power (as reported in City of Data) uses the term exactly as shown in the guide: if (target = critter). Arcanaville (who is cited in this report) also uses the term. Do a search for "critter" on these forums and you will find it is very common.
I thought this was a very clear and concise guide that explains the differences between attack type and damage type. Yes, if a player doesn't understand the difference between defense and resistance, it is more complicated. However, the answers are out there.
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Thanks for the criticism. However,[ QUOTE ]
-I did not know toxic was not resisted (however I think that defense must decrease the chances of it actually landing.)
[/ QUOTE ]From this I'm hoping you mistyped, as this is incorrect and if you learned that from my guide, I need to fix it. You *can* resist Toxic damage (Deflection Shield which I mentioned several times grants 40% Toxic resistance, for example), but there is no such thing as Toxic Defense, because there is no such thing as Toxic_Attack (if there were a power that gave you +Defense(Toxic), it would literally do absolutely nothing).
Many attacks that deal toxic damage are typed with Ranged_Attack and either Smashing_Attack or Lethal_Attack, however, so while there is no such thing as Toxic defense, there are ways to dodge attacks that deal toxic damage.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Great guide. Dwizka does make a point that a lot of the terminology is geared for those in the know and would be a bit dense for the newbie.
It would be helpful to hammer these points:<ul type="square">[*]Attacks and the damage they do are treated separately in CoH/V. The term "Attack" deals with the act of *attempting* to do damage to another player, or to a non-player character (NPCs are often called 'critters' by the programmers). If that Attack 'hits', then that attack has the chance to do damage to a player or critter.
[*]Attacks and the damage they do are classified by the game mechanics into different types. Attacks and damage are countered by the other player's or critter's Defense and Resistance, which are also classified by type. A player's TYPE OF DEFENSE (Defense_Type) can counter the TYPE OF ATTACK (Attack_Type); while a player's TYPE OF RESISTANCE (Resistance_Type) can counter TYPE OF DAMAGE (Damage_Type).
[*]IOW, it is Attack_Type v. Defense_Type. And then, if there is a 'hit', Damage_Type v. Resistance_Type.
[*]Attack_Type can be categorized into two realms: 1. POSITIONAL ATTACK (Ranged, Melee, Area of Effect [AoE]); and, 2. ELEMENTAL ATTACK (Smashing, Lethal, Energy, Negative, Psionic, Fire, and Cold). Most attacks have both a Positional and Elemental Type. However, some may have only one or the other [edit note: Is there any attack which only has a positional type without an elemental type?], or, in the case of The Hamidon, neither.
[*]Damage_Type doesn't have positional damage types. It does have the seven elemental damage types (Smashing, Lethal, Energy, Negative, Psionic, Fire, and Cold) plus one more: Toxic.[/list]
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The TOXIC damage, you keep bringing it up shows your distaste for it. Your guide is very outdated from 2006. This guys i10 guide is more accurate.
ALL THE FOLLOWING HAVE TOXIC RESIST OR DEFENSE and I am sure I am missing alot of other powers.
Kujin-In Sha
Overload
Resilence
Moment of Glory
Elude
Focus Fighting
Also you have inspiration.
And buffs from Defenders/Controllers.
And the power pool anyone can get Concealment/Leadership.
[ QUOTE ]
Is there any attack which only has a positional type without an elemental type?
[/ QUOTE ]Taking about 15 seconds to look up a single example I can provide you with "Siphon Speed"
Thanks for the input
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
The TOXIC damage, you keep bringing it up shows your distaste for it. Your guide is very outdated from 2006. This guys i10 guide is more accurate.
ALL THE FOLLOWING HAVE TOXIC RESIST OR DEFENSE and I am sure I am missing alot of other powers.
Kujin-In Sha
Overload
Resilence
Moment of Glory
Elude
Focus Fighting
Also you have inspiration.
And buffs from Defenders/Controllers.
And the power pool anyone can get Concealment/Leadership.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Attack Types / Attack Vectors
Any attack in City of can be flagged as using any combination of attack types (or "attack vectors"). The possible types are:
- Smashing_Attack
- Lethal_Attack
- Energy_Attack
- Negative_Attack
- Psionic_Attack
- Fire_Attack
- Cold_Attack
- Melee_Attack
- Ranged_Attack
- AoE_Attack
[/ QUOTE ]
There is NO Toxic_Attack, and therefore no Toxic_Defense. While Toxic damage is found in a lot of attacks, it is usually combined with another damage type, and even if a power does only toxic damage, the ATTACK is typed as Ranged_ or AoE, etc..
There are plenty of powers with Resist_Toxic. The guide posted above addresses this, and it is also the focus of this quote:
[ QUOTE ]
From this I'm hoping you mistyped, as this is incorrect and if you learned that from my guide, I need to fix it. You *can* resist Toxic damage (Deflection Shield which I mentioned several times grants 40% Toxic resistance, for example), but there is no such thing as Toxic Defense, because there is no such thing as Toxic_Attack (if there were a power that gave you +Defense(Toxic), it would literally do absolutely nothing).
Many attacks that deal toxic damage are typed with Ranged_Attack and either Smashing_Attack or Lethal_Attack, however, so while there is no such thing as Toxic defense, there are ways to dodge attacks that deal toxic damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
to Fleeting Whisper: Good work on the guide, I have already directed a few people to it to explain how defense and resist works, once they understand what you wrote, then they will be ready for Arcanavilles guide (which is REALLY heavy on the numbers)
I think some time in the near future I'll be making an update to this guide, including information about Base Defense revealed to us by the attribute monitor - base defense added to all defense types, and only affected by PFF and defense debuffs
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[u]Attack Type vs Attack Damage[u]
Contents
1) Introduction / Purpose Statement
2) Attack Types / Attack Vectors
3) Damage Types
4) Combining Them
Introduction / Purpose Statement
This short guide covers a topic I've often seen people get confused on - the difference between attack types and the damage the attack deals. The subject is covered in more depth in Arcana's Guide to Defense under the "Defense Mechanics" heading. However, it's a rather long guide which I'm sure can be intimidating for many. The goal of this guide is to concentrate and (hopefully) simplify this game mechanic.
Attack Types / Attack Vectors
Any attack in City of can be flagged as using any combination of attack types (or "attack vectors"). The possible types are:
- Smashing_Attack
- Lethal_Attack
- Energy_Attack
- Negative_Attack
- Psionic_Attack
- Fire_Attack
- Cold_Attack
- Melee_Attack
- Ranged_Attack
- AoE_Attack
Any power in City of can be flagged with any number of these attack types, or none at all. The vast majority of attack powers have a single "positional" type (Melee, Ranged, or AoE), and zero or more of the other seven types. Notable exceptions include the Hamidon, which has no attack typing, and Mind Control, which are all typed with Psionic_Attack only.
Defensive powers give defense to specific attack types. The Super Reflexes powerset, for example, gives a lot of defense to Melee_Attack, Ranged_Attack, and AoE_Attack. However, when a Super Reflexes Scrapper runs into an opponent wielding Mind Control powers, it's as if the Scrapper had no defense at all. Similarly, Deflection Shield from the Force Field powerset offers defense to Smashing_Attack, Lethal_Attack, and Melee_Attack, but is completely useless if you're hit by a power that's typed as "Ranged_Attack, Fire_Attack".
But what about a situation in which you have defense to one of the attack types, but not the other? In City of, if you have defense to any of the attack types you can use that defense to dodge the entire attack. A person being shielded with Deflection Shield would be able to dodge an attack typed as "Ranged_Attack, Smashing_Attack", or one with "Melee_Attack, Cold_Attack".
Similarly, what happens if you have multiple defenses that apply? What happens when a Super Reflexes Scrapper running Focused Fighting (which offers defense to Melee_Attack) has Deflection Shield on him is hit by an attack typed as "Melee_Attack, Smashing_Attack"? The game will check all of your applicable defenses (in this case, Melee and Smashing), and select the highest of your applicable defenses to use against the attack. In this situation, the game would use Melee defense, as the Scrapper would have ~15-23% defense to Smashing and Lethal and ~30-44% defense to Melee, depending on the slotting of the powers in question.
Again, note that there are attacks that don't follow the basic rule of thumb of "<position>_Attack, <damage>_Attack". Every single power in Mind Control is typed as only Psionic_Attack (as are two of the powers in Illusion Control), and the Hamidon has no typing on his attacks (which means all of our +Defense powers are a waste when facing him). There may be other examples, but these are the most notable, and it is worth knowing that it's always a possibility when a new power or a new enemy is introduced to the game.
Damage Types
There are eight different damage types, as opposed to the ten attack types:
- Smashing
- Lethal
- Energy
- Negative
- Fire
- Cold
- Psionic
- Toxic
Note the loss of Melee, Ranged, and AoE distinctions, and the addition of Toxic. The important thing to draw from this is the complete lack of toxic defense in the game.
Like the attack types, any power can have zero or multiple damage types. With damage, however, the different types can be present in different amounts, whereas the attack types are always represented equally when present. Each attack is given a specific amount of damage of a specific type that it does. The damage may be specified as a Damage over Time (DoT) for a specific time period. It is even possible to have the damage appear multiple times (giving the power several ticks of damage), make the damage unresistable, unenhanceable, have only a chance of happening, or only happen under certain circumstances. For an example, let's look at a power from City of Data, Fire Ball:
* 11.12 Smashing Damage
* 38.93 Fire Damage if (target = critter)
* 3 * 5.56 Fire Damage over 2.10 seconds (after 0.5 second delay) (80% chance)
* 16.68 Fire Damage if (target = player) [Non-resistable]
* 22.24 Fire Damage if (target = player)
(You may notice on the same page that the power is listed as "AoE_Attack, Fire_Attack"... I'll come back to this later)
Let's separate these effects.
[11.12 Smashing Damage] -> No matter the situation, Fire Ball will deal 11.12 Smashing damage to it's target, before damage resistance is applied
[38.93 Fire Damage if (target = critter)] -> If you hit an NPC, Fire Ball will deal 38.93 Fire Damage before damage resistance is applied
[3 * 5.56 Fire Damage over 2.10 seconds (after 0.5 second delay) (80% chance)] -> 80% of the time you use Fire Ball, half a second after it hits, you will get 3 ticks of 5.56 Fire Damage (before resistance is applied) to your target, which takes 2.1 seconds to damage that target
[16.68 Fire Damage if (target = player) [Non-resistable]] -> If you hit a player with your Fire Ball (read: PvP), you will do 16.68 Fire Damage, no matter what their Fire resistance is
[22.24 Fire Damage if (target = player)] -> If you hit a player with your Fire Ball, you will do 22.24 Fire Damage before resistance is applied
As you can see, you have have the same damage type multiple times, you can have multiple damage types, and you can have a plethora of conditions attached to them.
Combining Them
So what does all of this mean for an attack? How does it all go together? Well, the truth is there isn't really any hard-and-fast rule for how the attack types and damage types mesh together, in the same way that there's no rule for what attack types a power may have. Looking back at Fire Ball, you can have an "AoE_Attack, Fire_Attack" that deals Smashing Damage and Fire Damage. If you have 800% smashing defense and someone tosses a Fire Ball your way, you can still get hit with Smashing Damage. There is no defense against toxic, so any damage with Toxic Damage would have to have an unrelated attack type. Having 100% resistance to Negative Damage means nothing when you get hit with Fearsome Stare (typed as "Negative_Attack"). Levitate is Psionic_Attack and it deals Smashing Damage.
Often, an attack's attack type matches at least part of it's damage. But this is neither required nor the only way you see things.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt