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I’m going to guess it’s the former.
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You'd be correct. In fact, the game doesn't really (in general) know the difference between a "buff" and a "debuff" - a debuff is really just a buff with the opposite sign (i.e. negative). So the game wouldn't even know when to do the latter type equation: its really just all adding up of buffs, some of which happen to be negative.
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I’m going to guess it’s the former.
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You'd be correct. In fact, the game doesn't really (in general) know the difference between a "buff" and a "debuff" - a debuff is really just a buff with the opposite sign (i.e. negative). So the game wouldn't even know when to do the latter type equation: its really just all adding up of buffs, some of which happen to be negative.
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Someone once claimed this was untrue for resists. They claimed a 50% buff and 50% resist debuff effectively resulted in 75% net damage. (ie, 100 pts became 50, then the debuff raised it to 75).
Can I get a denial?
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I’m going to guess it’s the former.
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You'd be correct. In fact, the game doesn't really (in general) know the difference between a "buff" and a "debuff" - a debuff is really just a buff with the opposite sign (i.e. negative). So the game wouldn't even know when to do the latter type equation: its really just all adding up of buffs, some of which happen to be negative.
[/ QUOTE ]
Someone once claimed this was untrue for resists. They claimed a 50% buff and 50% resist debuff effectively resulted in 75% net damage. (ie, 100 pts became 50, then the debuff raised it to 75).
Can I get a denial?
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That's most definitely false. I believe its a misunderstanding based on the notion that at one time people thought resistance debuffs didn't just *look* like damage buffs, but were damage buffs in actual fact (they are not). A resistance buff combined with a damage buff *would* look like the calculation above, because those don't stack with each other (obviously) and therefore take effect independently and separately.
But since resistance debuffs are, in fact, debuffs, that's not what happens. Part of the confusion dates back to the time when it wasn't well known that resistance debuffs are *resisted* by damage resistance. So if you though it worked like this:
Net Damage = Base Damage * (1 - Resistance + ResistanceDebuffs)
that didn't work. So naturally, people thought it worked like this instead:
Net Damage = Base Damage * (1 - Resistance) * (1 + ResistanceDebuffs)
which actually does work. So they thought this term:
(1 - Resistance) * (1 + ResistanceDebuffs)
was how resistance debuffs worked. Except in fact, what was happening was this:
Net Damage = Base Damage * (1 - Resistance + (1 - Resistance) * ResistanceDebuffs)
In other words, the debuffs were themselves resisted. This simplifies to the expression above. How can we tell the difference? In PvP, with *unresistable* resistance debuffs. They work exactly like you would expect:
Net Damage = Base Damage * (1 - Resistance + ResistanceDebuffs)
Because the debuffs now operate without being resisted.
So technically, your resistance is this:
Resistance - ResistedDebuffs
which is:
Resistance - (1 - Resistance) * Debuffs
when they are resistable. This is actually true for *all* debuffs, not just resistance debuffs, but most players don't have a lot of resistance to other kinds of debuffs, so the first time they encounter this is with resistance debuffs. The whole:
Thing = ThingBuff - ThingDebuff
almost always works. But its really:
Thing = ResistedBuff - ResistedDebuff
Of course, we don't resist our own buffs all that often, so its usually:
Thing = Buff - ResistedDebuff
or just (Buff - Debuff) when there are no resistances in play.
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I started to reply about resistance but Arcana beat me to it and explained it better (she always does). So let me add that she's right. And welcome back from vacation Arcana!
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
Is the longbow anchored aoe -res sonic thing unresistable? It used to make my stone brute noticeably weaker, but I had fully slotted stone skin + granite + tough running, so I'd have thought my resistance to res debuffs would have been high. I'm fairly sure that I recently ran a mission with my elec brute, and the -res number worked out to some perfectly even number, which wouldn't really happen if I were resisting it.
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Is the longbow anchored aoe -res sonic thing unresistable? It used to make my stone brute noticeably weaker, but I had fully slotted stone skin + granite + tough running, so I'd have thought my resistance to res debuffs would have been high. I'm fairly sure that I recently ran a mission with my elec brute, and the -res number worked out to some perfectly even number, which wouldn't really happen if I were resisting it.
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I don't think damage resistance debuffs can be resisted, can they? Which is why, your damage mitigation takes such a big hit. If you're at 90% resistance, and you get debuffed by 20%, you're now at 70%... that's 3x more damage you're taking.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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I don't think damage resistance debuffs can be resisted, can they?
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I'd refer back to Arcanaville's previous post as an answer.
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...<snip> ... it wasn't well known that resistance debuffs are *resisted* by damage resistance.
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I don't think damage resistance debuffs can be resisted, can they?
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I'd refer back to Arcanaville's previous post as an answer.
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...<snip> ... it wasn't well known that resistance debuffs are *resisted* by damage resistance.
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My experience is with me debuffing NPC's and dealing damage. Nothing I've ever noticed resisted the achilles heel proc. It's always a 20% of "unresisted damage" boost.
Here's the trick. All damage resistance is typed. Which type is used debuff resistance? Lethal? Smashing? the highest of all types? I'm not sure I agree with Arcana on this one. I'll do some checking in game, but either there's something missing, or there's just no resistance to resistance debuffs.
I suspect the later.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Here's the trick. All damage resistance is typed. Which type is used debuff resistance?
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To put it simply: the correct one.
What we call "damage resistance" is actually resistance for a set of attributes normally associated with damage types: Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative, Toxic, Psionic. These are "attributes" and there exists something called "resistance" to any change to any of those attributes.
Every attribute has a number of "aspects" one of which is "Res." So there exists an attribute called "Smashing" and it has an aspect called "Res." This is what most players call "Smashing Resistance."
What does smashing res(istance) do? It acts to reduce the effects of anything that attempts to change the Smashing attribute. Specifically, it acts to reduce the effects of anything that attempts to change *any aspect* of the Smashing attribute. When someone delivers Smashing damage to you, they are attempting to change your smashing attribute, in effect trying to lower it. All of the "damage type" attributes are linked to your health bar, so reducing your smashing attribute ultimately reduces your health.
But "Smashing Resistance" doesn't just affect damage: it acts to resist *any* change to *any* Smashing aspect. So if you attempt to *increase* the smashing attribute, smashing resistance would also resist that.
Any attempt to increase or decrease the Smashing Res aspect is, in effect, an attempt to alter the smashing attribute. Smashing resistance will act to reduce that change. This means, in effect, if you have smashing resistance, and someone tries to *buff* your smashing resistance, that *buff* would be resisted: it would be reduced.
At least, it would if the buff was resistable. Most player buffs are unresistable. They are unresistable specifically *because* the intent is to always get the full benefit of the buff: players don't want to resist beneficial effects. But resistance debuffs are usually resistable, and therefore resisted.
Which resistance is used to resist Resistance debuffs? Well, basically, the correct one. When someone debuffs your "resistance" they are actually debuffing Smashing resistance, Lethal resistance, Fire resistance, etc. The same thing is true when they buff your resistance to damage: its actually each individual type that is buffed or debuffed. If your smashing resistance is debuffed, your smashing resistance resists that debuff. If your lethal resistance is debuffed, your lethal resistance resists that debuff. Each individual effect is resisted separately.
(What is being buffed when your *damage* is buffed? That is the aspect called Str or strength. If you buff Smashing Str, you are buffing Smashing Strength, and all powers that "affect" Smashing are boosted in strength. That's what causes damage buffs to increase the damage of your attacks: by increasing the Str of all the damage types, all attacks - that act on those types - increase in strength in response.)
This effect has been confirmed with in-game measurements many times, and is also consistent with how the game engine works. Since a resistance debuff is actually a bunch of resistance debuffs put together, and since each individual debuff component is a change to an attribute (smashing, lethal, etc), then the resistances of those attributes *must* resist the debuff. That's the very definition of an attribute's resistance.
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Hello Arcanaville. I have a question about the effects of RCH debuffs. How are they factored into the equation below?
Adjusted Recharge = Base Recharge / (1 + Recharge Buffs)
Is it
Adjusted Recharge = Base Recharge / (1 + Recharge Buffs Recharge Debuffs)
Or perhaps
Adjusted Recharge = Base Recharge / (1 + Recharge Buffs) / (1 - Recharge Debuffs)
I see Recharge Debuffs are limited to -75%. At first I was wondering if it was possible to have negative recharge or even division by 0. This boundary condition takes care of that.
Im going to guess its the former. Lets say a Cold Def hits someone running Hasten (.7) with Snow Storm (-.625). The first formula would yield a slight decrease in recharge time (a 10 second recharge would become 9.3 seconds), the second would yield a significant increase in recharge time (a 10 second recharge would become 15.86 seconds).
I ask because the game seemingly employs both techniques. The first formula looks like the to-hit equation (where buffs and debuffs are additive). The second looks like the damage taken equation (where buffs and debuffs are multiplicative).
So, anyway, if you could spare a moment for your insight into this, Id appreciate it.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)