Imitation is NOT the sincerest form of flattery!

Ok, so I don't post that much. But I do observe A LOT. And this is an issue I just have to vent about: IMITATION. No, I don't think it's flattering, and I certainly don't think it's "good business sense" at all. Frankly, it just pisses me right off. I'm not an artist per say. But I am a writer, a designer, and a very creative person. And I take everything that I work on very seriously and personally. Over this past year, working with Gill Bates on MMOART, I've researched a lot, I've learned a lot, and we both have worked very hard at what we do. We're always trying to take things a little further, to be as original, and innovative as we can; from Gill's artwork, to all the content I've written on our site, and the overall layout and site elements we both designed. And that knowledge of how much work we both have personally invested is what hurts and angers me when I see our efforts blatantly copied, sometimes verbatim. There just comes a time when enough is enough!

Now we're planning on addressing this issue directly (finally after almost a year, lol). But how do you all feel about imitation, as artists and creators yourselves? I mean, everyting about what we do comes down to personal creative ability. And when you copy what someone else does, you're depending on their ability for yourself, not your own merit or skills or efforts. There are plenty of ways to successfully present yourself without copying another's ideas and hard work.

Do you REALLY think imitation is just a flattering gesture or a slap in the face?

I think it depends on what you mean by "Imitation".

The reason I say this is, there are several definitions of imitation; and they run the gamut from what I feel would be truely flattering... to downright copyright infringment.

If you mean imitation in the "You stole my drawing/redrew my work and passed it off as yours" - yah, I'm right there with ya.

However, if you speak stylistically I'm not sure I can support your position. Everyone's style is going to be subtly different - but some styles (comic art in particular I find) has a degree of standarzation. Its hardly 'standardized' but there are certain things your going to see in comic art - regardless of who's doing it.

I also feel that imitation, in a sincere non-infringing way, is definitely flattering. The key is to let someone know who the originator of something is.

Example: Say I paint the Mona Lisa by looking off of DaVinci's; it'd be pretty dumb of me to try to claim I created the Mona Lisa; but it still shows some ability to re-create it. Imitation in this fashion is a stepping stone; it improves your skills. This kind of work you definitely definitely *must* cite the original creator - its their work; and in the case of a living person you *must* have their permission to do it.

Another example: Say I really like a given art style; I'll say Juggertha's to use one of this board's best known people. Juggy's style is damn unique; I'd never make a pic and say it was purely mine if I used his style - mentally though, its an homage to that artist. I feel a piece in this example; should be written something akin to "By <name of artist>, Styled after <name of artist who's style it was>.

I think part of it, is Innovation - nobody starts out completely original, alot of us would love to believe we are, but, we aren't 'unique and beautiful snowflakes' - at least not by default. You don't start out drawing in your matured style - you start with maybe... batman in the style of the animated series you saw when you were 10; or maybe the transformers... etc...

It'd be foolish to claim you invented those things; but they are essential artistic building blocks.

Also, one must allow for what is called "Simultaneous Inspiration". Two people's style could be remarkably close without having ever even seen the other individual's work. In that case, you really can't fault the other individual; its their style as much as yours.

That said; its sad but true that people will try to steal, rip off, and otherwise defraud others; so a pic that looks suspiciously similar to one of your own would definitely tick me off a bit (I'm talking style, color and composition all three). But imitation on its own isn't bad as long as the original creator is given their due in the process.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it depends on what you mean by "Imitation".

The reason I say this is, there are several definitions of imitation; and they run the gamut from what I feel would be truely flattering... to downright copyright infringment.

If you mean imitation in the "You stole my drawing/redrew my work and passed it off as yours" - yah, I'm right there with ya.

However, if you speak stylistically I'm not sure I can support your position. Everyone's style is going to be subtly different - but some styles (comic art in particular I find) has a degree of standarzation. Its hardly 'standardized' but there are certain things your going to see in comic art - regardless of who's doing it.

I also feel that imitation, in a sincere non-infringing way, is definitely flattering. The key is to let someone know who the originator of something is.

Example: Say I paint the Mona Lisa by looking off of DaVinci's; it'd be pretty dumb of me to try to claim I created the Mona Lisa; but it still shows some ability to re-create it. Imitation in this fashion is a stepping stone; it improves your skills. This kind of work you definitely definitely *must* cite the original creator - its their work; and in the case of a living person you *must* have their permission to do it.

Another example: Say I really like a given art style; I'll say Juggertha's to use one of this board's best known people. Juggy's style is damn unique; I'd never make a pic and say it was purely mine if I used his style - mentally though, its an homage to that artist. I feel a piece in this example; should be written something akin to "By <name of artist>, Styled after <name of artist who's style it was>.

I think part of it, is Innovation - nobody starts out completely original, alot of us would love to believe we are, but, we aren't 'unique and beautiful snowflakes' - at least not by default. You don't start out drawing in your matured style - you start with maybe... batman in the style of the animated series you saw when you were 10; or maybe the transformers... etc...

It'd be foolish to claim you invented those things; but they are essential artistic building blocks.

Also, one must allow for what is called "Simultaneous Inspiration". Two people's style could be remarkably close without having ever even seen the other individual's work. In that case, you really can't fault the other individual; its their style as much as yours.

That said; its sad but true that people will try to steal, rip off, and otherwise defraud others; so a pic that looks suspiciously similar to one of your own would definitely tick me off a bit (I'm talking style, color and composition all three). But imitation on its own isn't bad as long as the original creator is given their due in the process.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to second the squirrel.

I third the squirrel! Because that's a lot more thoughtful then I can be at the moment, and I concur with the statement.

Thanks squirrel, but my post has absolutely NOTHING to do with artwork or artistic styles at all. Sorry for the confusion. My post is specifically about the business aspect of art commissions, website design, and content that I personally wrote, copied for someone else's service.

Ahh, in that case - I'd be peeved too ^^ If they'd asked permission thats one thing... but if not, yeah, I'd be annoyed quite a bit. Sorry for misunderstanding. (<;.;> I spend alot of time thinking - so when something catches me... I just go!)

Yeah I agree on the bases of web design and developement and also the way you have your prices set up. Okay theres alot more to it like just the way MMO handles the business in general.


I believe thats a slap in the face also Lush especially knowing the time and creativity thats involved with coming up with being unique. Only days after to find out it's not unique anymore.


I'm right there with ya Lush. Sorrry this comes up a lot more lately then it really should!

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks squirrel, but my post has absolutely NOTHING to do with artwork or artistic styles at all. Sorry for the confusion. My post is specifically about the business aspect of art commissions, website design, and content that I personally wrote, copied for someone else's service.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something the internet is famous for unfortunately. Building a website is easy, being creative is a different matter. Way back when, in the old days when I use to create websites, I admitedly surfed the web looking for creative ideas. Ideas to start my own creative juices flowing, I never copied anybodies work. I will say, I often found images and buttons I created showing up on other websites. Some of it, as tacky and lowbrow as it it, you'll never stop. What Your talking about, borders on "knock off" territory.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks squirrel, but my post has absolutely NOTHING to do with artwork or artistic styles at all. Sorry for the confusion. My post is specifically about the business aspect of art commissions, website design, and content that I personally wrote, copied for someone else's service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like plagerism (sp?) to me. Directly ripping you off word for word is wrong. Looking at your site and being inspired to do there own thing as in close but not the same would be ok. What your describing wether it be art, writting a paper, working on a webpage or designing a car. Taking someones hard work and just copying it is unethical and wrong.

I agree with the squirrel. If it's a style of artwork... give a man or woman props for the inspiration... However, if you can't come up with something for yourself inasmuch as making a unique website or related work, then you either have to A: Hire someone to make it work for you, or B: Get some of your friends together with their own ideas, asking for their input.

Either way, it's a product that you can say "I did this... it's who and what I'm about." Something that can be -influenced- by another website in terms of delivery, but still your own voice.

This is why I'm designing the pages for myself on legal sized paper and completing the whole thing first in theory, then handing it over to the pros... If it's going to be me on the page, then by gosh... you'll know I had a hand in all the steps.

Just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Jim

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the squirrel. If it's a style of artwork... give a man or woman props for the inspiration... However, if you can't come up with something for yourself inasmuch as making a unique website or related work, then you either have to A: Hire someone to make it work for you, or B: Get some of your friends together with their own ideas, asking for their input.

Either way, it's a product that you can say "I did this... it's who and what I'm about." Something that can be -influenced- by another website in terms of delivery, but still your own voice.

This is why I'm designing the pages for myself on legal sized paper and completing the whole thing first in theory, then handing it over to the pros... If it's going to be me on the page, then by gosh... you'll know I had a hand in all the steps.

Just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Turned out I misunderstood Jim <'x'>; She's talking about webpages - sounds like someone out and out ripped hers off. (Sorry <,< I'm so damn verbose <T.T> and always in the wrong things!)

That's why I mentioned about the making the pages on my legal sized paper first, and all the related items... I got the point of the OP, and I got yours too...

Just acknowledging both opinions and giving mine.

Jim

[ QUOTE ]
Either way, it's a product that you can say "I did this... it's who and what I'm about." Something that can be -influenced- by another website in terms of delivery, but still your own voice.

[/ QUOTE ]

^^ Exactly Jim. This post would not exist if there were just mere similarities. There are numerous commissioned artists here, so of course we're going to share many of the same services and features. But of the numerous commissioned artists in this arena alone, most of them are not exactly alike to me. Not only do they have their own artistic styles, they have their own unique way of handling their commissions, their own unique site layouts, their own way of displaying them, and formatting their prices, etc. It's just frustrating seeing how blatant it is and not being able to really do anything about it, but bring attention to it.

I agree. We could have a long conversation between the two of us about how we do what we do, and still have unique ideas for each of our "commission businesses" alone! I agree it is frustrating, but bringing attention is a first step in keeping others from stepping in your territory or taking credit for what is essentially... your words.

Believe me Lush, we're on the same page.

I wish I knew what happened.

I am in agreement that blatant rip-offs are not imitation.

Definitely agree.

So far I haven't had a bad experience (fingers crossed) with various artists who do commissions, but I'd be pretty suspicious if I came across a website that almost mirrored word for word what another website is offering.

I also make a point of seeking permission from pencillers and inkers when I have a commission that I want coloured by someone else. I usually get the nod, based on the quality work of the artist doing the colors, and ensuring that due credit remains in place.

Hopefully one day I can save up enough pennies to get a masterpiece created by Gill.

I treat it like I do plagerizism - unless it's pretty much an exact copy or close to, there's room for benefit of the doubt so long as there seems to be something somewhat unique or original about it (a unique thought basically). Beyond that, I suppose it's somewhat of a case by case basis. As someone else said, I'd really have to know more to make any sort of judgement. For instance, on website design, websites tend to flow towards a few general design templates, however if one website is functionally and contentually the same (or close too), then it's probably a copy.

In general though I'm in the overall realm of thought that imititation is not flattery in all but a few cases. In part, this is because of intent - usually the imitator isn't doing so harmlessly and yet knowingly copies without (if possible) telling/asking the originator.

[ QUOTE ]
That's why I mentioned about the making the pages on my legal sized paper first, and all the related items... I got the point of the OP, and I got yours too...

Just acknowledging both opinions and giving mine.

Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh <;.;> Dammit, my reading comprehension is sucking lately... and I'm a voracious reader (and a writer no less...)

<prepares to perform self brain surgery> <x.x>

I too kinda wish I know a little more about what happened. It is obvious you are very upset Lush, and it sounds like you may have cuase to be. With web design there will always be certian similarties, and shared elements, but that does not mean that there are not almost infinate ways of putting those different things together. So using ideas you see and combining them, and toss in a dose of your own ideas is to be expected.

A virtual copy page almost identical is a different story and boarders on plagerism, although on the web I am not sure of the legalities of it, but ethically it is not good.

A copy is a copy, inspiration is inspiration. A quick conversation and look at the piece/work can usually find an answer. Personally, I love using other people's poses for my work. 10 hours later though, my work often looks nothing like my original inspiration.

That being said htough, other than the few of us who are on DeviantArt, I haven't really seen any artist's websites that are a like.

Any chance you feel like spilling the beans and getting it out in the open? Or maybe a PM is best?

I really don’t want to get into name calling and make this into a big thing. Basically someone has been ripping some of our site copy and certain aspects of our site design for quite awile. While the site design aspect is not a big deal it just shows a lack of creativity of said imitators. However copying text that we spent the time putting together to appeal to our clients/audience the "MMOART" way, is just not cool. I think in such an artistic market originality and integrity is a necessity. I just fear that they are often overlooked for the sake of convenience.

I know exactly how you feel Lush, it's like you were just rapped.. It's sickening to have your work claimed by someone else. Even just an edit with out your permission.

I used to do random art for people. Until one person decided to claim my work as theirs and even got it into the fanart section in the comic (This was Section-8) Funny thing is. My Placid art was right beside it. Nothing I could do about it. I still want to do random art, but I'm still a bit hesitant about it.

I've had my signatures digitally removed and someone placed theirs were mine once was.

I don't even upload art anymore on Deviant without putting a big [censored] Watermark over it. Which seriously sucks because it ruins it.

I've confronted people stealing my work.

And I've had others flame a person for stealing my work. (I didn't sick anyone on a person, they recognized my work and had the person banned from their forum)

It really sucks. But it does happen. Luckily often enough people do get caught and legal action is something we have to fight them back.

It's just one price we pay for showcasing what we love to do.

I've had requests threw Deviant for people to use my art for wallpapers and what not, I'm very cool about that, Hell I tell them that "As long as I get to see it." When people send me notes to study a pose and draw from it, I reply "As Long as I get to see it." I mean I'm very open about people using my art for those type of things, Because they asked me, they asked for my permission.

I'll stop. I can go on for pages about this.

I wish you the best and whatever action you plan to take You have my support, both you and Gill.

[ QUOTE ]
I know exactly how you feel Lush, it's like you were just rapped.. It's sickening to have your work claimed by someone else. Even just an edit with out your permission.

I used to do random art for people. Until one person decided to claim my work as theirs and even got it into the fanart section in the comic (This was Section-8) Funny thing is. My Placid art was right beside it. Nothing I could do about it. I still want to do random art, but I'm still a bit hesitant about it.

I've had my signatures digitally removed and someone placed theirs were mine once was.

I don't even upload art anymore on Deviant without putting a big [censored] Watermark over it. Which seriously sucks because it ruins it.

I've confronted people stealing my work.

And I've had others flame a person for stealing my work. (I didn't sick anyone on a person, they recognized my work and had the person banned from their forum)

It really sucks. But it does happen. Luckily often enough people do get caught and legal action is something we have to fight them back.

It's just one price we pay for showcasing what we love to do.

I've had requests threw Deviant for people to use my art for wallpapers and what not, I'm very cool about that, Hell I tell them that "As long as I get to see it." When people send me notes to study a pose and draw from it, I reply "As Long as I get to see it." I mean I'm very open about people using my art for those type of things, Because they asked me, they asked for my permission.

I'll stop. I can go on for pages about this.

I wish you the best and whatever action you plan to take You have my support, both you and Gill.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the kinda thing I've been terrified of for awhile with my own work.

I'm not good enough to be worth stealing from: Yet. >.< I intend to continue improving as both writer and artist; and I always get nervous about theft.

The website thing is terribly... well its in horribly poor taste - *especially* plagurising your ad (Which in fact, I believe you can take legal action against them for it - I'm not sure, and I'm sure its not something you want to do; but if you feel its serious enough... Plagurism is an all too common crime; and shouldn't be tollerated)

Err... I guess I've said all that before; but it just... sucks >.< still feel bad I aimed wrong with my first post though... I dunno why my reading comprehension is so bad right now.

Have you contacted the suspected evildoer?

Man as a webmaster that's really dissapointing. Anytime I use exact text I link the orignal page at the bottom. This is exactly what I've done on my Black Holes page on my own personal site.

As for pricing now that's in the marketing area, you're gonna find people with close prices. I know you're talking about exact wording here but if you're upset about prices too it seems to me that most of the artists here have a fairly close commission price for each work.

And to close this I know that I like to use other works to help me out. I do it when I draw, but I mainly use it for the pose and I draw everything by hand. I'm not skilled enough to see the body twisted in my head yet to get the exact pose I want so I use others'. As far as webmastering goes there are places that I go to for inspiration when I can't think of anything. Just type in free web layouts in google and you can get a lot of examples where people will let you download their site. These are very poor looking most of the time but every so often one will give me an idea to work off of. My sites tend to look nothing like these because unlike my drawing skillz I do have photoshop skillz and can do almost anything I can picture in my head for the website.

Ok I rambled and probably said something someone else did but there ya go.

-Rox