How to Defeat the New AVs (arch-villains) -- I7
By
Black_Specter,
Posted on: 2006-06-21 24:51 in Player Guides
This will need to be updated/added to once the AV fix that is upcoming is implimented. My understanding is that, while the intention was to make the AVs more difficult, they weren't supposed to be THIS difficult.
Back after 18 months away!
I was under the impression that Twilight Grasp, and Howling Twilight from Dark Defenders also provided brief click based -regen.
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I was under the impression that Twilight Grasp, and Howling Twilight from Dark Defenders also provided brief click based -regen.
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Don't know about Howling Twilight, but Twilight Grasp certainly does. As does EMP Arrow, but that oversight is understandable, given the recharge time.
And when did controllers get Sonic Blast as any kind of option?
This guide needs revision. Probably not worth bothering with, though, since it'll be outdated as soon as the AV changes are cut back to reasonable levels (which will likely be in the next week or two).
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I was under the impression that Twilight Grasp, and Howling Twilight from Dark Defenders also provided brief click based -regen.
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Nope. Twilight Grasp has -Dam and -Acc. That means, it reduces the damage that the foe is able to inflict upon heroes... rather than their resistance to damage inflicted upon them (RES).
Howling Twilight has -recharge, disorient, and slow... but not -RES or -REGEN.
IT would indeed be nice if these powers did have -Res and -Regen, wouldn't it?
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
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I was under the impression that Twilight Grasp, and Howling Twilight from Dark Defenders also provided brief click based -regen.
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Nope. Twilight Grasp has -Dam and -Acc. That means, it reduces the damage that the foe is able to inflict upon heroes... rather than their resistance to damage inflicted upon them (RES).
Howling Twilight has -recharge, disorient, and slow... but not -RES or -REGEN.
IT would indeed be nice if these powers did have -Res and -Regen, wouldn't it?
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Check the I7 Prima guide update.
Or drop by the defender forums and tell the Darkies that they can't do -regen. I'm sure you'll get a reasonable response.
Oops. That's absolutely correct about Sonic controllers. They don't have sonic blast... so cross them out of those powers!
And I forgot to add Controllers to Sonic Siphon, they have it too.
I don't even see EMP Arrow listed anywhere (is it a brand new epic pool for archery or something?).
I did find one omission, though, EMP Pulse in the Electrical Mastery epic power pool for Blasters. This power reduces regeneration rates as well. So thanks for making me go back and check it.
My stats and info, btw, are coming from the COH manual, and double checked with the COH Planner.
Well, if they fix the AVs, then great. I'd be happy to delete this whole thread. In the meantime, though, I thought it might be helpful for those of us who are trying, STRUGGLING to complete their AV missions over the next weeks or months while the Devs are mulling over what they should do.
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
Dark's Twilight Grasp and Howling Twilight most definitely have -regen components (check the green torso ring).
HT seems to have about a 15 sec duration and cuts the regen rate about in half.
Both Twilight Grasp and Transfusion have -regen, but I have not been able to tell either duration or rate. I think something is bugged about these two, as even spamming them has not seemed to have a solid impact. HT's -regen works, but the recharge on it prevents it from having more than a small effect on a fight.
So far, to defeat any AV/GM's, we have always had to get a Rad with Lingering Radiation. LR lasts 30 secs. and cuts the regen rate in half (ie twice as long between when their regen 'ticks'). Because LR's recharge can be boosted to under it's duration, LR can be kept on a target indefinitely. This is key to being able to shut down the buffed regen rate and allow a team to win.
Just an example: On an Eden trial, 2 darks and a kinetic controller could not allow their team to even put a dent in the first Quarry.
Something is not working right with -regen powers (aside from LR).
-Sandolphan
"When heroes fail, the Angels will save you."
MASTERMIND NUMERIC KEYPAD PET CONTROLS
HAMIDON NUKE RAID GUIDE
OTOH, a sonic blast/dark miasma corruptor (level 22, SK'ed to 40) and a bot/dark miasma mastermind and a dark servant (from the MM), were able to completely negate the regen of a +1 Luminary as a full blown Hero (CoV equivalent of a CoH AV). A team of 4 took her out, the other two being a bot/ff MM and a fire/fire corruptor. So the only possible source -regen was from spamming twilight grasp over and over. Glad to know howling twilight also has -regen, I wasn't aware of that.
I reject your reality and substitue my own!
--Adam Savage from "Mythbusters"
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I don't even see EMP Arrow listed anywhere (is it a brand new epic pool for archery or something?).
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Try the link in my sig.
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My stats and info, btw, are coming from the COH manual,
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Even the updated manual is 3 issues out of date, and lacks most of the information that's really critical, like the secondary effects of many powers.
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and double checked with the COH Planner.
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All of the planners provide information given by players. Some of it, like the defense numbers (thanks, Arcanaville) and movement speeds (thanks, TopDoc) is canon. Other information is flat out wrong, but no-one bothers to send in updated information for the planners to be corrected with. The majority of the information is taken from the in-game descriptions, which are typically just as outdated as the manual and perpetually lacking in relevant, usable data... like whether a power has -regen or not.
The best resource for power information is the forums - the players who have tested, retested, and tested powers yet again, and the developer posts (especially _Castle_'s).
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Well, if they fix the AVs, then great. I'd be happy to delete this whole thread. In the meantime, though, I thought it might be helpful for those of us who are trying, STRUGGLING to complete their AV missions over the next weeks or months while the Devs are mulling over what they should do.
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It's a noble and admirable goal, and I agree. But it needs to be thorough, and correct, so the players who use it to build AV teams are getting the right information and not kicking or ignoring some players because they aren't Rads. 
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It's a noble and admirable goal, and I agree. But it needs to be thorough, and correct, so the players who use it to build AV teams are getting the right information and not kicking or ignoring some players because they aren't Rads.
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I agree. So let's fix it up.
I logged in, and checked out my dark/dark's powers. Right clicking on them, there is no mention of -regen or -res. Neither is it in the powers' info for Howling Twilight or Twilight Grasp.
Checked out the free download Issue 7 Prima guide ( http://coh.primagames.com/ look on page 89 for Twilight Grasp). No information on heroes' powers in it, only COV... and I'm not entirely certain that power modifications in COV apply to COH as well... do they?
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
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Checked out the free download Issue 7 Prima guide ( http://coh.primagames.com/ look on page 89 for Twilight Grasp). No information on heroes' powers in it, only COV... and I'm not entirely certain that power modifications in COV apply to COH as well... do they?
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Shared powersets are the same for heroes and villains. They're differentiated by the AT modifiers, the powers are the same in all other respects. So where the Prima guide shows a 50% -regen for Twilight Grasp, for example, you take the base value (0.50) and multiply it by the AT modifier (in the PDS index thread) and get a final debuff value for each AT that can use it.
But the real point of that wasn't a math lesson (i really hate math...), it's that the powers are the same for anyone who can use them, with the effectiveness of the powers changed for each AT. Just like the Energy Blast set has the same powers for both defenders and blasters, but blasters do more damage.
TG for dark defs and cors does indeed do -regen. Obviously this isn't going to give rads a run for their money, but it does help to stack and a little -regen is better than nothing. Its a nice power to attach it to really since your bound to be using your healing powers when fighting an AV/H anyway.
Great info, Luminara. Thanks. That PDS Index makes my brain hurt!
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
For some reason you forgot Dark/* defender's -regen in Howling Twilight and Twilight Grasp. The reason for this might be that you are going from the basic descriptions of said powers, the ones the devs give us. These are wrong. If you look around the waist of a target hit by TG or HT, you will see a groups of dark green rings going downwards, which is the symbol of -regen. And if you don't believe me, how else could my defender have beaten a */regeneration scrapper with only 2 attacks, that are unslotted for anything except -acc and acc.
TW/Elec Optimization
For some reason you forgot Dark/* defender's -regen in Howling Twilight and Twilight Grasp. The reason for this might be that you are going from the basic descriptions of said powers, the ones the devs give us. These are wrong. If you look around the waist of a target hit by TG or HT, you will see a group of dark green rings going downwards, which is the symbol of -regen. And if you don't believe me, how else could my defender have beaten a */regeneration scrapper with only 2 attacks, that are unslotted for anything except -acc and acc.
TW/Elec Optimization
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Dark's Twilight Grasp and Howling Twilight most definitely have -regen components (check the green torso ring).
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I can confirm that TG has the -regen graphic. Tho I did not test the duration or effectiveness. If it's not been resolved by next week and I happen to remember, I'll look into trying to test the duration and effectiveness on some even con minions.
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OTOH, a sonic blast/dark miasma corruptor (level 22, SK'ed to 40) and a bot/dark miasma mastermind and a dark servant (from the MM), were able to completely negate the regen of a +1 Luminary as a full blown Hero (CoV equivalent of a CoH AV). A team of 4 took her out, the other two being a bot/ff MM and a fire/fire corruptor. So the only possible source -regen was from spamming twilight grasp over and over. Glad to know howling twilight also has -regen, I wasn't aware of that.
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Except that the assaultbot, which you had 1 or 2 (assuming by lvl's mentioned) have a -regen component in them...
I have a personal update. Decided to take on Battle Maiden last night... and wiped the floor with her using my new -regen powers! 
The team consisted of 1 tank, 1 contoller, 1 PB, 1 dark defender (me), and 4 blasters. It was shakey at first, but I continued to spam Twilight Grasp and Howling Twilight whenever they recharged, while also blasting away... and it worked great! Twilight Grasp and Howling Twilight didn't reduce the Av's regen rate for long, so I had to keep activating those powers as fast as I could. I also made sure Smokey (my dark servant pet) was always up and by her side so he could also spam Twilight Grasp. Once our blaster hit her with EM Pulse, it was all but over. She got knocked down to 3/4 health, and never really recovered. From there it was a steady (but slow) decline in AV hit points. Nice.
This was a dramatic change from the previous night's battle with the AV Nightstar. I didn't know about dark defender's anti-regen powers then, and we had to bring in a rad/rad defender to defeat the AV. But now... well... I guess I'll have to put Dark Defenders up there at the top of the list of AV killers, right below Sonics.
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
Here is an updated list for COH (someone else might compile a list for COV?)
The following is a list of all powers and hero archetypes in COH that you will need to defeat an arch-villian.
Powers that reduce the REGENERATION RATE of Foes:
Lingering Radiation Radiation Defenders and Controllers
EM Pulse Radiation Defenders and Controllers
Twilight Grasp Dark Miasma Defenders
Howling Twilight Dark Miasma Defenders
Transfusion Kinetics Defenders and Controllers
EMP Arrow Trick Arrow Defenders and Controllers
EM Pulse Blasters (Electrical Mastery epic power pool)
Powers that Reduce the DAMAGE RESISTANCE of Foes:
Enervating Field (toggle) Radiation Defenders and Controllers
Fallout Radiation Defenders and Controllers
Tar Patch Dark Miasma Defenders
Freezing Rain Storm Summoning Defenders and Controllers
Disruption Arrow Trick Arrow Defenders and Controllers
Acid Arrow Trick Arrow Defenders and Controllers
Disruption Field (toggle) Sonic Defenders and Controllers
Sonic Siphon Sonic Resonance Defenders and Controllers
Shriek Sonic Defenders and Blasters
Scream Sonic Defenders and Blasters
Howl Sonic Defenders and Blasters
Shout Sonic Defenders and Blasters
Screech Sonic Defenders and Blasters
Dreadful Wail Sonic Defenders and Blasters
Well, it's pretty clear that Radiation Defenders/Controllers are still the most effective AV killers. However, who comes second is somewhat uncertain to me. Dark Miasma Defenders now seem to be the next best pick because of their 2 new -REGEN powers and their 1 -RES power. However, the Sonics Defenders just might make up for not having any -REGEN powers with their many -RES powers. Having never played a Sonics Defender, I don't feel qualified to judge, but my guess is they'd be very effective. After these, of course, it's a toss up and depends upon your team's make up. Needless to say, ALL of these powers and archetypes would be useful against an AV, and just might turn the tide in your favor.
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
The Unfounded conclusion would be Sonic is less important than -regen. For sonic to be more important than -regen it would have to debuff -100% res and double your damage. It's a nice boost, but not double.
I'm gonna pull a subjective number out my posterior and say the broken AV's regenerate around 1000 hp / sec. It's my understanding they regenerate fully in the blink of an eye, say 30 seconds, and some of them have 25k+ hp. So 1000 hp/sec would be a nice subjective number.
Now, If a scrapper can do say 130dps unbuffed and their are 8 scrappers pounding on the AV that's 1000 dps. So that's about even. I think this is also a bit optimistic from the reports I've seen of it taking closer to 16 players to take out the big bad AVs. But lets go with it.
So ... regen is 1000 dps and damage is 1000 dps .. total stalemate. So for Sonic to be more important than -regen the question would be, would sonic debuffs reduce the resistance enough to double the damage ? The answer is no. you have to stop the regen first.
No, you hate my numbers, they stink. Ok, fine. You take the same team beat on the AV all day long and it's a total stalemate. That means Damage is -X and Regen is +X. So the question is, does sonic debuff the AV enough to double damage ? The answer is no. Unless sonic gives -100% res, then sonic will always add less than -X. -regen will add -X.
So then the only debate is can you keep -regen applied over what percentage of time and is that percentage of time greater than the buff from sonic to damage. If Sonic adds 35% to damage then -regen would need to be active a min 35% of the time to break even. I feel subjectively that it's pretty safe to say -regen is more important.
You might include OTHER ways of defeating AV's, also. What about the Warburg nukes? Plopping down a biological and chemical nuke will severely lower AV resistance and buff up your damage enough to take out almost anybody.
However, probably the EASIEST way, though, are by getting the Shivans in Bloody Bay. You can get them in relatively little time and risk (which is NOT necessarily true in Warburg). This reminds me: you CAN take your team to BB and get the Shivans even while in a TF. Nice to know.
I dont know what rad powers the shivans use, but they are helpful -- they add extra damage, and they use some rad-like powers. Really ANY pet would be good, for the extra damage, but shivans are nice in that you can get more of them when you use them up.
Also, warburg nukes are a good choice. If you dont like pvp, it cuold be a pain, but it *defeinately* made a difference when I used the EMP + Chemical warhead on the AV at the end of Manti's TF. (too bad Im out of nukes now... have to get me some more)
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The Unfounded conclusion would be Sonic is less important than -regen. For sonic to be more important than -regen it would have to debuff -100% res and double your damage. It's a nice boost, but not double.
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I think you're right. I've been experimenting with my rad/rad defender to see how he does against GMs and AVs, and it looks like -RES alone doesn't cut it. Without the -REGEN from Lingering Radiation, the GMs took absolutely no damage. With the -REGEN, however, the team as able to inflict damage on the GM. We fought Paladin.
So this would seem to imply that -REGEN powers are NECESSARY to defeat the new I7 AVs and GMs, which would knock out Sonic Defenders, Controllers, and Blasters; and Storm Summoning Defenders and Controllers from the list of achetypes that can defeat the new AVs. Also the EM Pulse powers work, but wears off after about 30 seconds, and the recharge rate of the power is so long that the AV's regeneration rate is able to restore itself before the power recharges and we're back at square one. So blasters and Trick Arrow Defenders and Controllers that have this power won't ensure an AV defeat.
So this means that only 3 archetypes will ensure that a team defeats an AV or GM:
1) rad/rad defenders and controllers
2) dark miasma defenders
3) kinetics defenders and controllers
It's possible that the Kinetics Defender/Controller's -REGEN power Transfusion might be to weak to be useful, but I don't have any data for this.
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
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I dont know what rad powers the shivans use, but they are helpful -- they add extra damage, and they use some rad-like powers.
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I agree with this fully.
Recently, I was doing the Sister Psy Task Force, and one Shivan was the difference between not being able to move Clamor's HP and taking her down in a few minutes.
I think they must have a -regen in their powers somewhere.
That blue thing running around saying "Cookies are sometimes food" is Praetorian Cookie Monster!
Shoot on sight, please.
Welcome again fans and foes! Today's lesson is on how to work around the newly upgraded (i.e., broken) Arch-villains. With the advent of I7, AV's regeneration rates and damage resistance were significantly enhanced. So much so that it is now IMPOSSIBLE to complete any mission that includes an AV without a specialized archetype of hero on the team who also happens to have the right powers. This applies to nearly all missions of levels 40+ (and a few below).
What's the trick? Well, obviously the team must reduce the AV's newly boosted regeneration rates and damage resistance. Only a few hero archetypes can do this, however, so you'll have to be very choosey when you build your team and/or super group once you've reached level 40.
The following is a list of all powers and hero archetypes in COH that you will need to defeat an arch-villian.
Powers that reduce the REGENERATION RATE of Foes:
Lingering Radiation Radiation Defenders and Controllers
EM Pulse Radiation Defenders and Controllers
Transfusion Kinetics Defenders and Controllers
Powers that Reduce the DAMAGE RESISTANCE of Foes:
Enervating Field (toggle) Radiation Defenders and Controllers
Fallout Radiation Defenders and Controllers
Tar Patch Dark Miasma Defenders
Freezing Rain Storm Summoning Defenders and Controllers
Disruption Arrow Trick Arrow Defenders and Controllers
Acid Arrow Trick Arrow Defenders and Controllers
Disruption Field (toggle) Sonic Defenders and Controllers
Sonic Siphon Sonic Resonance Defenders
Shriek Sonic Defenders, Controllers and Blasters
Scream Sonic Defenders, Controllers and Blasters
Howl Sonic Defenders, Controllers and Blasters
Shout Sonic Defenders, Controllers and Blasters
Screech Sonic Defenders, Controllers and Blasters
Dreadful Wail Sonic Defenders, Controllers and Blasters
Looking over this list, you'll notice that Radiation Defenders and Controllers are by far the best at reducing a foe's damage resistance and regeneration rates. A TOGGLE power, such as Enervating Field, that reduces an AV's damage resistance is by far the best choice. Click powers merely reduce a foe's resistance and regeneration rates for a few seconds... which typically allows the AV to recuperate once the effects have worn off and you're back to square one. In addition, Radiation Defenders/Controllers have a lot more going for them because they can also reduce a foe's regeneration rate. If you look at the list, there are only 3 powers in the game that do this, and Radiation Defenders/Controllers have 2 of them.
The second pick, for me, would then be Sonic Defenders and Controllers for their Disruption Field, which is also a toggle power that reduces damage resistance. All other powers in the list above are click powers. Sonic defenders/controllers/blasters also have a TON of attacks whose secondary effect reduces a foe's damage resistance, so they are defeinitely at the top of the list.
After these, it's somewhat of a toss up as to which archetype to choose. There's no doubt that a dark defender, storm defender, kinetics defender or trick arrow defender will help a little... but I'm not sure their powers are strong enough to allow a team to defeat an arch-villain.
Lastly, there ARE Radiation defenders/controllers out there who chose NOT to take Enervating Field. Make sure they have that power before you invite them on the team. The same goes for Sonic defenders/controllers and the power Disruption Field. In fact, the same goes for all of the apropriate archetypes. I, for example, have a dark/dark defender WITHOUT Tar Patch... so my hero would be useless (and he was indeed useless when we fought our first I7 AV, I might add).
Well, that's it Fans and Foes! I only have one thing left to say and that is... If elected Mayor of Paragon City, I will promise a chicken in every pot and a Radiation Defender in every team! Thank you. Thank you. (waves to thundering applause)
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank