ARCANAVILLE SEZ:
A lot of people have reported oddities with inspirations, especially lucks, and occasionally insights. I finally had a chance to test those out. Wasn't easy, let me tell you, and the tests were nowhere near the level of precision I would like to have, but I was able to see pretty conclusively variations in the behavior of the insps over what we all assumed was their behavior, based on their textual descriptions. So I had something of positive proof to take to the devs for enlightenment.
The textual descriptions are wrong: very very wrong.
Here is what the insps actually do, according to pohsyb:
DEF
S - 12.5%
M - 25%
L - 33%
ACC
S - 7.5%
M - 18.75%
L - 37.5%
RES
S - 10%
M - 15%
L - 20%
DMG
S -25%
M - 33%
L - 50%
Well, at least they got the damage and resistance ones right. But lucks are half the strength you think they are, and insights were created with a random number generator.
(Please don't reply that the insights aren't actually random, I know that.)
The good news is that SR isn't a little more than one small luck, its a little less than three. At least I think that's good news: all of you that were wondering why you sometimes needed to chomp four or five of these little guys now know why: it takes five of these guys to floor an even level boss in I6 (four in I7).
The bad news is that lucks and insights aren't actually balanced. In lower level zones where drops are often the smaller variety, lucks are a little stronger than insights. Not too much, but some. In RV, where drops are more often of the larger variety, insights are stronger than lucks.
So as tohit buffs become more common, from the BB to SC to WB to RV, insights also become more powerful than lucks. That's probably not a good thing either.
You would think by now we wouldn't trust the text descriptions for anything, and here's yet more proof that you shouldn't believe everything you read. Unless it comes from me, of course.
And this is worth noting: because lucks are defense, and therefore probabilistic in nature, not everyone will tend to see "average" performance. Some people will see behavior close to what they really do, and extrapolate their performance correctly, and some people will see bursty behavior that is out of line with their true behavior, and extrapolate their behavior incorrectly.
But in this case, it was the people who complained about seeing oddities that were right, and the people who thought they were working correctly that were wrong. Including me: sorry guys and gals, it took me a while to eventually come around and devote testing time to this.
The question, of course, is whether anyone else but me will know this, after this thread gets pushed down into page 42 with all the Issue 7 threads.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
ARCANAVILLE SEZ (This post was in response to a methodology Starsman created to evaluate all defensive sets):
To be honest, I'm still trying to figure out all of your calculations based on the spreadsheet and your original posting of the methodology. It seems to be roughly comparable to my immortality line calculations from my scrapper comparison threads (which apparently were purged, I guess I'll have to repost them at some point), with certain differences (for example, they seem to presume perma-DP, whereas mine averaged DP).
And that's puzzling to me, because my own calculations showed regen superior to invuln on smash/lethal, even with saturated invincibility and no instant healing.
Because the thread is gone, I'll reproduce my immortality line calculations here. These calculations are rough estimates for the average sustainable damage for each AT - such that any more is eventually lethal. This seems comparable to the calculation you're doing, I think.
I've added a section not in the original: invuln with *maximum* invincibility:
[ QUOTE ]
Basic SR immortality line equation:
dps * (0.5 - defense) * (1 - res) = 100%/240s
dps = 100%/240s / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res)
Basic Invuln immortality line equation:
dps * (0.5 + 0.05 - defense) * (1 - res) * 0.63 * 120s + dps * (0.5 + 0.05 - defense) * (1 - res) * 65s = 100%/240s * 185s + 78% * 0.63
dps * (0.55 - defense) * (1 - res) * (0.63 * 120s + 65s) = 77.1% + 49.1% = 126.2%
dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - defense) / (1 - res) / (140.6s)
Basic DA immortality line equation:
dps * (0.5 - defense) * (1 - res) * 30s = 100%/240s * 30s + 39.9% * (#targets)
dps = (12.5% + 39.9% * #targets) / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 30s
Basic Regen immortality line equation:
dps * 0.5 * (1 - res) * 0.63 * 120s + dps * 0.5 * (1- res) * 65s = 100%/240s * 4.9 * 185 + 49.1% + 4 * 48.75% * 0.63 + 2 * 48.75%
dps * 0.5 * (1 - res) * (140.6s) = 377.7% + 49.1% + 122.8% + 97.5% = 647.1%
dps = 647.1% / 0.5 / (1 - res) / 140.6s
SR immortality line:
Best case s/l/f/c/e/n: dps = 100%/240s / (0.5 - 0.304) / (0.76) = 2.80%/sec
Worst case s/l/f/c/e/n: dps = 100%/240s / (0.196) / (0.9) = 2.36%/sec
Toxic/psi: dps = 100%/240s / 0.196 = 2.13%/sec
Invuln immortality line:
smash/lethal: dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - 0.129) / (1 - 0.497) / 140.6s = 4.23%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative: dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - 0.129) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 2.68%/s
toxic: dps = 126.2% / (0.55) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 2.05%/s
psi: dps = 126.2% / (0.55) / (1) / (140.6s) = 1.63%/s
Invuln Maximal Invincibility immortality line:
(21.645% invincibility, 5.85% TH, 27.495% defense total)
smash/lethal: dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - 0.27495) / (1 - 0.497) / 140.6s = 6.49%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative: dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - 0.27495) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 4.10%/s
toxic: dps = 126.2% / (0.55) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 2.05%/s
psi: dps = 126.2% / (0.55) / (1) / (140.6s) = 1.63%/s
DA (one target DR) immortality line:
smash/lethal/fire/cold: dps = 52.4% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.351) / 30s = 5.99%/s
energy/toxic: dps = 52.4% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.234) / 30s = 5.08%/s
negative: dps = 52.4% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.468) / 30s = 7.31%/s
psi: dps = 52.4% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.585) / 30s = 9.37%/s
DA (two target DR) immortality line:
smash/lethal/fire/cold: dps = 92.3% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.351) / 30s = 10.56%/s
energy/toxic: dps = 92.3% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.234) / 30s = 8.95%/s
negative: dps = 92.3% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.468) / 30s = 12.88%/s
psi: dps = 92.3% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.585) / 30s = 16.51%/s
Regen immortality line:
smash/lethal/toxic: dps = 647.1% / 0.5 / (1 - 0.088) / 140.6s = 10.09%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative/psi: dps = 647.1% / 0.5 / (1) / 140.6s = 9.20%/s
[/ QUOTE ]
These numbers use up to date SR scrapper defense numbers.
If I'm misunderstanding your calculations, and you are actually computing a time to live style calculation (how long you can survive), then here are my relative 185 second survival calculations for the four scrapper sets:
[ QUOTE ]
Basic SR 185 second survival equation:
dps * (0.5 - defense) * (1 - res) * 185s = 100%/240s * 185s + 100% = 177.08%
dps = 177.08% / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 185s
Basic Invuln 185 second survival equation:
dps * (0.5 + 0.05 - defense) * (1 - res) * 0.63 * 120s + dps * (0.5 + 0.05 - defense) * (1 - res) * 65s = 100%/240s * 185s + 78% * 0.63 + 100%
dps * (0.55 - defense) * (1 - res) * (0.63 * 120s + 65s) = 77.1% + 49.1% +100% = 226.2%
dps = 226.2% / (0.55 - defense) / (1 - res) / (140.6s)
Basic DA 185 second survival equation:
dps * (0.5 - defense) * (1 - res) * 185s = 100%/240s * 185s + 39.9% * (#targets) * 6 + 100%
dps = (177.08% + 239.4% * #targets) / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 185s
dps = 416.48% / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 185s [one target DR]
dps = 655.88% / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 185s [two target DR]
Basic Regen 185 second survival equation:
dps * 0.5 * (1 - res) * 0.63 * 120s + dps * 0.5 * (1- res) * 65s = 100%/240s * 4.9 * 185 + 49.1% + 4 * 48.75% * 0.63 + 2 * 48.75% + 100%
dps * 0.5 * (1 - res) * (140.6s) = 377.7% + 49.1% + 122.8% + 97.5% + 100% = 747.1%
dps = 747.1% / 0.5 / (1 - res) / 140.6s
SR 185 second survival:
Best case s/l/f/c/e/n: dps = 177.08% / (0.5 - 0.304) / (1 - 0.24) / 185s = 6.43%/s
Worst case s/l/f/c/e/n: 177.08% / (0.196) / (0.9) / 185s = 5.43%/s
Toxic/psi: 177.08% / (0.196) / (1) / 185s = 4.88%/s
Invuln 185 second survival:
smash/lethal: dps = 226.2% / (0.55 - 0.129) / (1 - 0.497) / 140.6s = 7.60%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative: dps = 226.2% / (0.421) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 4.81%/s
toxic: dps = 226.2% / 0.55 / 0.795 / 140.6s = 3.68%/s
psi: dps = 226.2% / 0.55 / 1 / 140.6s = 2.93%/s
Invuln Maximal Invincibility immortality line:
(21.645% invincibility, 5.85% TH, 27.495% defense total)
smash/lethal: dps = 226.2% / (0.55 - 0.27495) / (1 - 0.497) / 140.6s = 11.63%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative: dps = 226.2% / (0.27505) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 7.36%/s
toxic: dps = 226.2% / 0.55 / 0.795 / 140.6s = 3.68%/s
psi: dps = 226.2% / 0.55 / 1 / 140.6s = 2.93%/s
DA (one target DR) 185 second survival:
smash/lethal/fire/cold: dps = 416.48% / 0.449 / 0.649 / 185s = 7.73%/s
energy/toxic: dps = (416.48%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.234) / 185s = 6.55%/s
negative: dps = (416.48%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.468) / 185s = 9.42%/s
psi: dps = (416.48%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.585) / 185s = 12.08%/s
DA (two target DR) 185 second survival:
smash/lethal/fire/cold: dps = 655.88% / 0.449 / 0.649 / 185s = 12.17%/s
energy/toxic: dps = (655.88%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.234) / 185s = 10.31%/s
negative: dps = (655.88%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.468) / 185s = 14.84%/s
psi: dps = (655.88%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.585) / 185s = 19.03%/s
Regen 185 second survival:
smash/lethal/toxic: dps = 747.1% / 0.5 / (1 - 0.088) / 140.6s = 11.65%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative/psi: dps = 747.1% / 0.5 / 1 / 140.6s = 10.63%/s
[/ QUOTE ]
These too use updated SR scrapper defense numbers (30.4% instead of 27.3%). It also underestimates regen's toxic resistance, because in my original postings I did not factor in the toxic resistance of reconstruction.
Something isn't quite meshing between mine and yours, and I'm not quite sure what it is. Maybe you can spot it faster than I can.
As an appendix, this is the original section of my posting that explained the calculations (you can also get some explanation of how these calculations work in the I5 version of this comparison, which is still around in the guides section)
[ QUOTE ]
Some explanation is in order. First, what's going on with DA. SR balances damage rate with regeneration rate. There is no mention of time in the SR equations. The reason is that SR's damage mitigation mechanisms work the same way moment by moment: their performance is constant when measured against average damage rates. But DA doesn't quite work that way: Dark Regeneration doesn't deliver a constant amount of healing per second, but rather one large heal every 30 seconds. Now, technically speaking, we could calculate the average heal per second of DR, and in essence average out its effect. And in fact, in this specific case, that would work fine. But instead, we look at the net effect of one whole cycle, instead of averaging out: if the scrapper is taking exactly as much damage as he can regenerate, then the net change in health every DR cycle should be zero. For simple calculations, this works just as well, but later, when we do more complex calculations, this way of looking at things (looking at cyclical powers by looking at what happens in one cycle, and extrapolating) will become more powerful. In particular, it will guide us when looking at another power: Dull Pain. The other thing to note about DA is how dependent on DR's performance it is: the difference between hitting one and two targets on average with DR is large. Its so large that instead of averaging (considering 1.5 targets for DR for example) I show both situations separately.
Handling Dull Pain
Dull Pain has a number of tricky aspects. First of all, while its active, it boosts health by 59% (1.59). How do we measure the benefit of a health boost? One way would be to literally treat it as an increase of health. This would as a byproduct increase the regeneration rate in absolute terms, because the regeneration rate is proportional to the amount of health. But that makes the math much more complicated, and then there is the additional problem of dealing with Dull Pain's expiration: your health will shrink in equal proportion.
There is a simpler alternative: measure everything in terms of percentage of health (as mentioned earlier). When you view the situation in that way, then when Dull Pain is active, in effect it does nothing to your health bar - Dull Pain's +health does not change the percentage of your maximum health you have. What it does instead is decrease the relative damage you take from any damage source. An attack that would normally do X% of your health bar when it lands will now do X% * 1/1.59 = 0.63 * X% of your new stretched health bar. An example might help:
100 damage vs 1000 health: 10% of health
100 damage vs Dull Pain stretched health = 1000 * 1.59 = 1590 health: 100/1590 = 0.063 = 6.3% of health.
In effect, while dull pain is active, it behaves as if you have 1 - (1 / DPfactor) resistance. When Dull Pain is slotted for +59% health boost, it behaves as if you have 1 - 1/1.59 = 0.37, or 37% resistance. You'll take 63% of the damage you'd normally take.
Note that using this perspective, regeneration remains constant. Regeneration is still ticking away at the same %/s rate, whether your health bar is stretched or not: this is a major advantage for this methodology in terms of simplifying the calculations (if you think this methodology somehow overlooks something, or doesn't reflect reality properly, you're free to perform the direct calculations: I guarantee you they will always match these calculations precisely, because this is just a change in units).
Dull Pain also has a heal. 3-slotted with Heal Enhancements, the heal is +78%. But its +78% of base health. Its very important to note how dull pain works: first it "stretches" your health bar, then it applies the heal. Since the heal is 78% of the original health bar, its only 78%/1.59 = 49.1% of the new, stretched health bar. And that is important, because to be consistent, the heal has to be accounted for in terms of percentage of the *current* health bar at all times.
So to account for Dull Pain accurately, we treat it as 120 seconds of 37% resistance, in the sense of reducing damage by 37% (this pseudo resistance does not stack with any other resistances - DP "resistance" and true resistance take effect independently), and 65 seconds of no dull pain related resistance. Also, although Dull Pain has +78% base heal, we have to account for it mathematically as a 49.1% net heal - because for us, the "%" is "percent of current health bar" instead of "percent of original health bar."
When Regeneration runs Dull Pain, we have one more thing to consider: reconstruction heals for 48.75% of base health: while DP is up, just like the Dull Pain heal itself, reconstruction's heal has to be adjusted to be a percentage of the adjusted health bar (48.75%/1.59 = 30.7%). When DP is down, reconstruction does heal for 48.75%.
In summary, if we want to see the net effect of dull pain over a complete cycle of dull pain, we calculate all of the damage taken in 185 seconds, compared to all of the regeneration in 185 seconds. For immortality line calculations, the net effect on health for a full cycle of Dull Pain should be zero, since whatever happens in one cycle will happen over and over again.
damage during DP up: dps * (nettohit) * (1-res) * 0.63 * 120 seconds
damage during DP down: dps * (nettohit * (1-res) * 65 seconds
Regeneration during 185 seconds (remember, in this methodology regen rate is constant throughout DP cycle): 100%/240s * time
DP's heal: 49.1%
Note that the total damage in 185 seconds:
dps * (nettohit) * (1-res) * 0.63 * 120 + dps * (nettohit) * (1-res) * 65
= dps * nettohit * (1-res) * (0.63 * 120 + 65)
= dps * nettohit * (1-res) * (140.6)
So another way of looking at dull pain is that normally net damage in 185 seconds would be:
dps * nettohit * (1-res) * 185s
but dull pain reduces that to
dps * nettohit * (1-res) * 140.6s
which means dull pain reduces net damage over the entire cycle to 140.6/185 = 0.76 of the total amount. If you wanted to express the average benefit of Dull Pain, one rough measure is to say that over time, it reduces net incoming damage by 0.24 or 24%, and applies a 49.1% heal every 185 seconds (slotted as described earlier without hasten).
One question that comes up periodically is: is Dull Pain more of a healing power, or more of a damage mitigation power. We can answer that question: the mitigation level is 24%, and the average health regeneration is 49.1%/185s = 0.265%/sec. For all net damage levels higher than 0.265%/s / 0.24 = 1.1%/sec, Dull Pain mitigates more than it heals. For all net damage levels lower than 1.1%/sec, Dull Pain is more of a healing power than a damage mitigation power. To put that into perspective, a level 50 minion that does 100 points of damage every 5 seconds lands 10 points of damage per second on an invuln with 50% tohit (i.e. defense balances unyielding). At level 50, that is 10/1338 = 0.00747, 0.747%/sec.
So for all levels of damage higher than facing more than about one and a half even minions, Dull Pain is more mitigation than heal.
[/ QUOTE ]
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Math junkies on MMO forums are like demigods to the rest of us mere mortals. With that being said, intense math like this hurts my head to read. Anyway, I'm a newb to CoH, and I look forward to more headache-inducing math sessions like these. They really do a good thing for the community and for the dev team. Spotting errors and finding solutions to questions with logical answers seem like something worthy of a demigod.
I'm not sure if I should be flattered, or disturbed.
The odd thing is after reviewing them carefully, this technically doesn't appear to violate any of the forum's rules, as it is an actual guide, of sorts.
Whether this is an exploit, or just working as intended, is I suppose the question.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
"If you look over to the left, in the Forest of Data, you'll see a lovely discontinuity. . . meanwhile, in the Land of Overlapping Slopes, you can look up at the majestic face of Regen. . ."
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
[ QUOTE ]
"If you look over to the left, in the Forest of Data, you'll see a lovely discontinuity. . . meanwhile, in the Land of Overlapping Slopes, you can look up at the majestic face of Regen. . ."
[/ QUOTE ]
I actually laughed out loud at work at this post.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
"If you look over to the left, in the Forest of Data, you'll see a lovely discontinuity. . . meanwhile, in the Land of Overlapping Slopes, you can look up at the majestic face of Regen. . ."
[/ QUOTE ]
Here in the Arcanaville archives, you can see footage of:
Invuln, post-I5: Tough, but a bit depressing.
Regeneration, as it once was in I3: ridiculously powerful, but still occasionally getting smacked by strong bosses.
And Super Reflexes, as envisioned conceptually by the devs.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I should be flattered, or disturbed.
The odd thing is after reviewing them carefully, this technically doesn't appear to violate any of the forum's rules, as it is an actual guide, of sorts.
Whether this is an exploit, or just working as intended, is I suppose the question.
[/ QUOTE ]
I checked the rules. It would probably be exploitive for YOU to post a guide to yourself, because you would be cross-posting. Doesn't stop the rest of us. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Arcanaville spends all this time doing hard math so that we can be uber and the darn forums eats her stuff! NO MORE!
If you see a long math filled post by ARCANAVILLE - Post it here!
Change the name of the subject to the name of the post! See the post below for an example.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.