The arena after 5 days of playing
By
Adamant_Soul,
Posted on: 2005-04-04 24:23 in Badges and Gladiators
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If anything, there should be other games that can be played in the arena. Things like capture the flag, some sort of race, paintball/laser tag, or something. Some sort of activity where you can compete with others without it being a test of how much damage you do.
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Exactly! I made a post about getting Capture the Flag implemented but it recieved very little notice.
Sounds like you need a new game.
Do keep in mind PvP is in it's infancy, but even if they fixed all the obvious known issues and everything you pointed out (I didn't see anyhting new or refreshing in the entire rant retread) - you probably STILL wouldn't enjoy PvP.
Some folks just aint cut out for it.
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If anything, there should be other games that can be played in the arena. Things like capture the flag, some sort of race, paintball/laser tag, or something. Some sort of activity where you can compete with others without it being a test of how much damage you do.
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Exactly! I made a post about getting Capture the Flag implemented but it recieved very little notice.
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umm.. then won't it be like unreal tourney? leave coh just as it is.
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Holds in general: any time you are stuck for a length of time unable to do ANYTHING it is not fun. And in the arena, this is true far too often. Running from one held character and pounding them down to another held character just isn't fun. It's also not fun being on the receiving end sitting there looking at your held character for minutes on end.
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my main is a 50 ill troller and i have posted before
i really wish "in the magic of arena" would just remove hold effects and
make those powers do different things
always felt it ruined the fun in other mmo's too.
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I'm beginning to believe that the devs will never be able to change it to anything less. Powers might see some better balance eventually and the bugs will be fixed but it's always going to be some form of rock/paper/scissors and you can only play that game so long before it really gets old.
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Not being a fanboy here, just being rational. I agree with all your sayings except this part. You are saying that they will never fix something that you have played for 5 days? Of course the experience is frustrating but they will continue to fix bugs and adjust the game for PvP. The things that was making your experience a bad one are in my opinion "bugs". Give them 2 weeks and come back complaining after (not that all you said was complaints, there was some well thoughts ideas as well).
I'm a huge fan of PvP games. I can play Unreal Tournament for hours (much to the consternation of my wife 
But the difference between a game like UT and CoH PvP is huge.
In UT you can jump right back into combat after respawning. In CoH PvP I have to turn all my toggles back on and wait for endurance to regenerate. That does not make for a fast paced fun game.
In UT even if the other guy has the flac cannon and all I have is the pistol, I have a chance. In CoH PvP if I get held it's game over and I get to look forward to turning all my toggles back on and waiting for my endurance to regen.
CoH PvP isn't, in my experience, fun.
Hm... I wonder if they could force first person view, and then make attacks aimable instead of targetable...
I'm going with what Jobu said. Infact, These aren't "observations" of PvP, they're just excuses for not thinking up a way around all of these things, which there is quite a few paths.... Fear for example, just because you're a Tanker or Scrapper doesn't mean you get to carry only Rages and Insights, you NEED to be carrying a row or two of BreakFrees and using them when things actually turn sour. Even when terrorized you have a window to attack and you don't lose your Toggles like other status effects do to us REAL squishies.
...And like anything else, Of course you'll burn out fast if you don't take it all in moderation. 
I'd rate this thread a one considering the devs haven't even added anymore patches to the PVP yet.
Lots of things need fixed. Just give it time before you go on about how it's not fun.
i think what it boils down to (for me) is this...i should be able to respond to an attack...if my response is ineffective, thats my fault. ok...granted i dont HAVE any break frees (due to no inf on test). even without them i should be able to have SOME kind of response to an attack. (breakfree, being an inspiration, should be OPTIONAL. example...im in a combat, and am missing alot. i COULD is an insight...OR i could keep missing alot and maybe win after a LONG fight...same should apply to break free). now, if u use breakfree i improve my response. but without it it should still be possible. it may be that just fixing the perma taunt and passive thing may be enough. i dont know. what i DO know is that as it is, its not fun. if it continues to be not fun, i wont participate. (i also have a low pvp tolerance, so its lack of fun may be just me).
Sorry you didn't have a great experience with the arena man. But I dunno what you expected from it. Some things will be changed to even the playing field a bit, but your complaints seem to be that people wont just sit there in front of you with their guard down and let you pound on them. Try brainstorming and find a weakness to every opponent you face. There is no such thing as invincible. I've seen SR scrappers get taken down several times.
To be honest, the arena isn't even as awful as i thought it would be. I was almost expecting Counterstrike meets MMO's. I expected to be cussed out and had rude comments toward my mother be thrown at me lol. The only example of bad sportsmanship I've seen so far was in a match with some members of Evolution. I play on Virtue and most of them know who i am. A few of them hate me. Of course i joined their match and they all ganged up on me over and over. And after the match one of them sent me a tell that said "suck it".
So moral of the story is.... kids and adults play this game and its hard to avoid the rude lil kids, but if the arena frustrates you that much, just stick with PvE... I know several people who are doing just that.
You know .... the Special Olympics has runners that aren't suited or well prepared too. ...Compared to normal races, they're very LONG races too. And even if someone wins, they're still retarded. I'm not saying you're retarded for not taking some Enhancements to sell on the TestServer over from your Live server "Inf Pool". It's just a matter of doing what is necessary to get an unquestionable WIN. I'm saying that if it takes either one of you a long time to kill eachother, that makes you both losers in the grand scheme of PvP
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Lots of things need fixed. Just give it time before you go on about how it's not fun.
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That's why the feedback is so crucial, so the devs can see how the people using pvp react to it.
My view on pvp... not a fan so far, I agree with a lot of the OP's points, my SS/Invul tanker spent most of his time in perma fear, or taunted, or being spawn killed. It was no fun.
It'll get better and feedback from users will help.
I do know I'll need to respec when it goes live, my build may work against the npcs but not against other people.
And I'd like to see capture the flag as well... some other modes besides perma-fear and die mode would be great.
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If anything, there should be other games that can be played in the arena. Things like capture the flag, some sort of race, paintball/laser tag, or something. Some sort of activity where you can compete with others without it being a test of how much damage you do.
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Exactly! I made a post about getting Capture the Flag implemented but it recieved very little notice.
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AFAIK this type of PvP is being reserved for City of Villians...
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
I enjoy PvP but I'm not going to sit here and say there aren't any problems. However, I do have faith that Cryptic will work most things out and we'll end up with a more enjoyable and somewhat balanced experience.
Obvious bugs I've come to disregard because I expect those to be resolved quickly enough. My concern are the balance issues I've been seeing. There are certain skill sets which are overpowered and others which need help. Just because someone has had a different experience doesn't negate that.
For example, I've encountered SR scrappers which I've been able to defeat; in a team setting anyway. But then I fought one solo and I got him down to 50% HP using accuracy inspirations before he went on to wipe the floor with me. 10 to 0 was the outcome. There was absolutely nothing I could do to touch him once I was out of inspirations. That doesn't strike me as balanced.
I personally don't like a system which strictly adheres paper/scissors/rock concept. While it can make tactics important I think strategy and skill should be the overriding decider in any match. That kind of system renders certain skill sets more effective than others. And what happens in 1 on 1 matches? Under this system certain sets are doomed to lose. I can't say with certainty that this is how the arena is working right now but some skill sets certainly have an overwhelming advantage.
Well, I hope that developers balance things out to the point that most players feel reasonably satisfied with their PvP experience.
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i think what it boils down to (for me) is this...i should be able to respond to an attack...if my response is ineffective, thats my fault. ok...granted i dont HAVE any break frees (due to no inf on test). even without them i should be able to have SOME kind of response to an attack. (breakfree, being an inspiration, should be OPTIONAL. example...im in a combat, and am missing alot. i COULD is an insight...OR i could keep missing alot and maybe win after a LONG fight...same should apply to break free). now, if u use breakfree i improve my response. but without it it should still be possible. it may be that just fixing the perma taunt and passive thing may be enough. i dont know. what i DO know is that as it is, its not fun. if it continues to be not fun, i wont participate. (i also have a low pvp tolerance, so its lack of fun may be just me).
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Go to the live server, stock up on enhances, then copy to test.
Then sell the enhance's, bingo, INFLUENCE.
also, you could look me up, i can give you some inf.
PS. Guys, ROck, scissor etc..
not really, its all based upon many factors, its not chance.
Its mainly mathematics.
The biggest gripe I have about the arena is the "triple damage while held" thing. Especially with sings. The sings just spam holds and that effectively chain mezzes you: even with the immunity. The triple damage makes it worse in that they can kill you in 5 seconds flat....and regen scrappers are still overpowered. Other than that, I don't have any complaints as I know they are bugs that will be fixed. 
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The biggest gripe I have about the arena is the "triple damage while held" thing. Especially with sings. The sings just spam holds and that effectively chain mezzes you: even with the immunity. The triple damage makes it worse in that they can kill you in 5 seconds flat....and regen scrappers are still overpowered. Other than that, I don't have any complaints as I know they are bugs that will be fixed.
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Problem is, I believe the 15 sec window grants immunity from being spammed the same hold or stun from a specific source.
Meaning, if the same hold is coming from different sources (sings, frosts, etc) you may get chain held.
As for the triple damage, I have yet to see my damage output increase. I don't believe it is actice.
Counting deaths is what is killing the fun for tankers ... make the opposing team have to go through you before they can attack your squishie teamate again and they might try to get to you first ... maybe not ... but at least they will face you ...
Char Site | My DeviantArt
Global=@Thornster
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Problem is, I believe the 15 sec window grants immunity from being spammed the same hold or stun from a specific source.
Meaning, if the same hold is coming from different sources (sings, frosts, etc) you may get chain held.
As for the triple damage, I have yet to see my damage output increase. I don't believe it is actice.
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Once a hold drops ... it should make you immune to all holds for 15 secs ... including the removal of all active holds ... that way you could give controler's a hard time ... well you only need about 4 seconds with range and line of sight to take down a controler with a blaster ... but being perma-held is no fun ... so make the immunity 5 secs if you want ... but you have ot be immune .. this is crazy.
Char Site | My DeviantArt
Global=@Thornster
For one it's on test. they have bugs. As long as you talk that is fine. Inspirations are to be used. If you don't have influence, here is something amazing..Run one mission! It will net you atleast 100K. That is more than enought to get you going for PvP.
Triple damage is necassary for controllers. They do poor damage and need something to get the other guys down since break frees are included in the game. Otherwise you would end up permaheld. I think the breakfree inspirations make perfect sense. It's a fair trade.
yes the game has bugs. You don't like fear because it gets through your defenses. tough it's supposed to. How else are you going to stop that unkillable, unhittable wall of hit points. every set has a weakness and it's up to you to find them out. Once you find them out you will learn to use them and how to cope with your own weakness. If i can occupy the tank and get him out of the game so the rest of the team can beat up on the others you bet I'm using everything I can.
Fear is not the same as the taunt bug. Fear is not a bug, taunt is. Granted fear is powerful. But so are a few powers in the game. If feared, you can take a breakfree and your out. If you hit taunt you can not take a breakfree to get out. Dieing doesn't help either. If you use taunt because you are getting feared then you can not call foul. You are actually doing something that was not designed to work that way.
My primary reason for posting the original post was not to whine but to provide feedback to the Devs as to the reasons why I am not having a lot of fun after reasonably testing the arena in its current state. I've gotten the gist of the current state of the Arena and I'm not all that crazy about it. Most of those reasons are ones that a lot of other people have complained about so I know it's not all that original.
As an Inv/SS tanker, I find I actually rarely ever get defeated in matches but when I do, it's because its happening while I can do absolutely nothing in return. This kind of PvP has nothing to do with skill or "working around a problem." Having a tray of insps is not the answer to the fundamental problems plaguing arena fighting. I certainly don't mind losing in the arena, winning or losing is not the determining factor of me having fun, whether it is a challenge or not is.
In just about all the games I've played, I am either killing others who can not hurt me in return, or I am sitting there unable to do anything and waiting or hoping to hurry up and die - very rarely am I ever dying on my feet as it were, slugging it out with an opponent with the victor of the fight in question. To me, it is no challenge to beat down someone who can't do anything to me in return. It is also no challenge for anyone to beat me down when I'm unable to do anything. There's very little skill involved in the vast majority of the matches taking place in the arena right now because of that dynamic (unless you think having a tray of insps is playing skillfully).
"You don't like fear because it gets through your defenses."
I don't like anything that forces a player to essentially leave the game for a period of time. All holds have this problem.
Taunt may be broken but there's very little difference between being perma-taunted and being perma-feared (and it is mostly perma if you don't happen to have any break free insps). Both automatically hit and both are automatically 100% effective and that's the problem, the fact that one is broken in the game balance sense and the other is broken in a programming sense is moot. They can both be considered griefing exploits when used regardless of your justification.
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For one it's on test. they have bugs. As long as you talk that is fine. Inspirations are to be used. If you don't have influence, here is something amazing..Run one mission! It will net you atleast 100K. That is more than enought to get you going for PvP.
Triple damage is necassary for controllers. They do poor damage and need something to get the other guys down since break frees are included in the game. Otherwise you would end up permaheld. I think the breakfree inspirations make perfect sense. It's a fair trade.
yes the game has bugs. You don't like fear because it gets through your defenses. tough it's supposed to. How else are you going to stop that unkillable, unhittable wall of hit points. every set has a weakness and it's up to you to find them out. Once you find them out you will learn to use them and how to cope with your own weakness. If i can occupy the tank and get him out of the game so the rest of the team can beat up on the others you bet I'm using everything I can.
Fear is not the same as the taunt bug. Fear is not a bug, taunt is. Granted fear is powerful. But so are a few powers in the game. If feared, you can take a breakfree and your out. If you hit taunt you can not take a breakfree to get out. Dieing doesn't help either. If you use taunt because you are getting feared then you can not call foul. You are actually doing something that was not designed to work that way.
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Yeah, pre 32 they do. After that, they are stronger than blasters. (in fact, everything is after lvl 32.) After lvl 32, the triple damage should be abolished, and break frees don't work against sings. They hold too fast for them to work, I went though 20 BFs in less than a minute because I kept getting held/immobilized by sings.
Sounds like you should wait til it hits live. Bugs are annoying, yeah. I agree. But they won't be there on live.
However, what's NOT a bug-powers like PFF, Phase Shift, etc that make it impossible for damage. I hate travel powers too..but can you blame em'? They don't want to die!
Well, after 5 days, I've pretty much run the course for PvP. It was fun at the start as I was learning how to play it and what worked and what didn't, but not any longer. Here is what I've determined (and I only make claims for myself, since other players using other ATs will have a different impression.)
Inv/SS Tanker is what I play.
Fighting other tankers: Pointless. It's gotten to the point where I don't fight them and they don't fight me. Occasionally there's a hold, or a debuff, or toggle drop or something else that turns a tank into a squishie and can therefore be worthwhile to attack but 90% of the time you'll have more fun going after a squishie. Heck, even non-tankers find it generally pointless to attack tankers. The point of a tanker is to take hits but if no one attacks you, what is the point? Not sure how the Devs can resolve that problem. Not fun.
Taunt: Broken, useless, and rediculously powerful all at the same time. If you're taunted, you run away until the taunt wears off - useless and not fun. If you taunt defenders and/or blasters, they become completely useless and it is not fun for them - rediculously powerful. Anyone gets perma-taunted - completely not fun - broken.
Radiation: If you're hit by this, it's all over. You might as well be perma-held at least until you die which is sometimes not quick enough. Not fun.
Force Field Defenders: I don't know if they're all a**holes but every one I've encountered so far at some point activates that shield thing that basically makes them impossible to hit and then type "lol" and "lmao", or read a newspaper as you try to hit them. Not fun. All I gotta say is be wary of being unsportsmanlike to a tanker with a broken taunt power and a short temper...
Terrorize: Basically the same thing as a perma-hold. Not fun and yet people still insist on using it even after being told of its rediculousness. I started having a rule, if you use terrorize, I use taunt. Then no one will have fun.
Holds in general: any time you are stuck for a length of time unable to do ANYTHING it is not fun. And in the arena, this is true far too often. Running from one held character and pounding them down to another held character just isn't fun. It's also not fun being on the receiving end sitting there looking at your held character for minutes on end.
Superspeed: I'm sick and tired of chasing people all over the map only to get one attack off every 30 seconds or so when I happen to get in range. Other travel powers aren't so hard to deal with but fighting anyone using their travel power with a melee character is not fun at all.
Bugs: the whole non-toggle passives shutting off after death is so incredibly annoying. You might as well type /requestexitmatch 1 when this happens.
Gameplay in general: PvP is simply a gank fest in nearly every match. Someone gets held, terrorized, or basically gimped in some way and then everyone on the opposing team beats them to a pulp. Rinse and repeat - not fun regardless of whether you're the ganker or gankee. Usually it's the squishies that have the hardest time. It seems they are either totally screwed or they are uber-powerful to pointless extremes and not a whole lot in-between. Very, very rarely is there an interesting balance of ATs in a match that makes it fun for everyone.
There is almost always one team that has a decisive advantage over another because of some power they have that the opponent doesn't, and then they simply trounce the opposition. I've been on teams that were doing the trouncing and been trounced in the same way and neither way is fun.
To play 10 matches before playing one that is fun and/or a challenge is a very poor ratio and after only 5 days (really 5 sessions of a couple of hours each), I'm tired of it.
I'm beginning to believe that the devs will never be able to change it to anything less. Powers might see some better balance eventually and the bugs will be fixed but it's always going to be some form of rock/paper/scissors and you can only play that game so long before it really gets old.
If anything, there should be other games that can be played in the arena. Things like capture the flag, some sort of race, paintball/laser tag, or something. Some sort of activity where you can compete with others without it being a test of how much damage you do.