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slainsteel

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  1. slainsteel
    Alright, so made a few adjustments to my invuln build and my elec build for regen - changed around few things to give them both pretty high regen.

    Kept the same primary for both; using elec since it has pretty good mitigation and the AoE's allow slotting some pretty nice +def bonuses - plus /elec is my favorite on tanks anyway

    Both these tanks are done up for maximum survivability to s/l/e/n; totally ignoring f/c _and psi damage. My stoney has something like 5% psi def and resistance and he yet has to face a problem.


    Invuln:

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    Elec:

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  2. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    Yes and no. Dull Pain has a heal, but discounting that the +health in Dull Pain can be viewed as a resistive-like damage mitigation. It doesn't stack with resistance per se, but it acts like resistance in most other respects. Mathematically speaking, +health is usually viewed as an independent damage mitigation ratio, not a boost to regen. In absolute numbers it boosts regen, but not in a percentage sense which is how most calculations are done.

    To put it another way, if we ignore the effect of heals, then something with 60% more health takes 60% more damage to kill, all other things being equal. That's how we usually view +health: as essentially reducing the impact of damage, similar to how resistance works (but independently).


    Not so much a formula, but I do have a spreadsheet. The question would be whether, given those numbers above, you also have soft-capped defense, and given that seems to be a potentially very expensive custom build, there would need to be a comparable Invuln build to compare to.

    A Mids block would be useful, to extract the type-by-type numbers, for each build.

    Another reason for the Mids block would be to validate certain numbers. For example, a 37 second recharge on Energize is 324% total recharge. That implies global recharge on the order of 124%. But perma-hasten requires global recharge closer to 175%, which suggests your build doesn't have perma-hasten. Its probably closer to 24 seconds of downtime on Hasten, which means the average recharge on Energize is closer to 39 seconds, with the worst case scenario being about 42 seconds. Stuff like that can be significant.

    At a glance, though, Energize would make that build tend to beat a strong Invuln build in long term survivability if that build is soft-capped. If its not, Invuln will tend to have the advantage in defense given it has both tough hide and invincibility, and its then anyone's game.

    I have both builds - I am using the spiritual T4 on both; give me about 10 minutes and I'll post both blobs here, I need to fixup the invul to get better regen (started working on the invuln again after the last few posts).
  3. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    In my opinion, its in not factoring in +Health into your thinking. Assuming everyone has all the accolades, an Electric tanker will have +20% health, while an Invuln tanker will hit the cap with Dull Pain at about +71% health. Normalizing that difference, if you're going to compare Invuln resistances to Electric resistances, then the apples to apples comparison for Invuln's resistances should be something closer to about: 93% smash/lethal (yes: that is higher than the tanker res cap - that's due to being capped s/l + having higher health), and about 52-53% f/c/e/n/t. My guess is that Electric resistances end up for most builds with tough somewhere around 79% s/l, 56% f/c/psi. 90% energy, 48% negative. Electric wins on energy and psi, loses on smash, lethal and toxic, and basically draws on fire, cold, and negative. That is not an obvious net win for Electric. Its actually a net loss.

    Where Electric might edge out Invuln is on Energize's heal or Power Sink's effects, but you dismissed healing and didn't mention endurance drain. You specifically focused on the damage mitigation effects of defense and resistance, and +health is effectively a damage resistive effect. Even factoring in the max health cap, the Dull Pain advantage equates to a significant strength over Electric Armor in the direct damage mitigation area outside of heals and regeneration.
    I like numbers

    So when I dismissed healing, I was essentially dismissing healing/regen and max health. If you bring one into the picture, you have to bring all three.

    The elec tank build I've made is,
    • 81% s/l resist
    • 90% elec resist/51% negative resist
    • 58% Fire/Cold resist
    • Energize comes up every 37 seconds and heals for 54% hp
    • 479% regen with energize
    • 130% from tanker base

    Looking at these numbers, if you factor in DP, assuming it's perma, and well slotted, the invuln tank probably has a 80% heal every 1m10s or so, and 60% more hp; but he has no real +regen power other than health.

    If you factor that in, the hp gap between Invuln and Elec lowers; and with resistances where they are for my build, would put elec back on top.


    I believe you had come up with a formula in which you could plug-in resitance/defense/hp/regen in and get a total number for survivability that could be used in comparison? If so, we could just use that.

    I also believe either you or someone else came up with a formula to convert heals to regen, that could factor in the heals.


    Ideally, this should not be determined this way, by banter, opinions and individual game play experiences; I trust numbers more than anything else.
  4. slainsteel

    Best Debuff Set?

    POST-ACTION

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion View Post
    Try PUGs...Fallout is great for that!

    I just recently finished IO'ing my Dark/Rad Corr. (from a respec. too) and she now has Recall Friend, Veng., Fallout and Mutation. I'm really liking Fallout

    Both her and my Cold/Sonic Def. have/are going to have the Very Rare Musc. Alpha for all the bonus of debuffing
    Bleh PuG's
    Don't remind me - I have seen some impossible things.

    Like a stoney tank that um, kept dying, over and over again. A kin on the team and damage bonus solidly flatlined throughout, etc etc. Oh I have stories :P
  5. slainsteel
    Anything? If it looks good, it would be nice to see affirmation
  6. slainsteel
    ..and everyone has been telling me that while also saying, invuln is a 'cheaper' tank; still don't get how it is 'better'?

    I _started my premise with the fact that you'll at least cap s/l/e/n on all the tanks; since that is quite possible with sets and no inherrent defense power.

    Half your post was about defense again; which I already said, is going to be capped on the important types on all sets, so I don't get it. How am I wrong?

    Are you claiming that invuln s/l/e/n resistance is higher than that of an elec; or are you telling me that "after" def cap, this resistance doesn't make much of a difference?

    I am looking at heals and regen as secondary attributes - only mentioning them for Dark/Elec to clarify that they aren't really losing out on heal/regen.


    I am not even claiming anymore that I am 100% right, I am just asking 'how' I am wrong.

    My point:
    • Def cap can be reached on all tanks, next most important thing for survivability is resistance, which elec/dark have more of (on high end TF's, s/l/e/n being the most important ones)
    Everyone else's points:
    • Invuln is not hard to soft-cap
    • It's cheap to soft-cap
    • Everyone says invuln is great, so it has to be better
    • You know nothing about tanks

    See my dilemma?
  7. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
    Slain, you're so off the page and away from what people know about Tanker sets, it's rather hard to respond to you. These threads get thrown out all the time, and people always throw Stone, Invlun, and Willpower in the top three, while agreeing that any set can tank well.

    Your attitude toward Invuln just makes me question your judgement even more... it's really not that hard to softcap, and you saying it is compared to Electric just baffles me even more. It feels a lot more to me like you have a preference for a set and are doing anything you can to justify that preference. It gets even weirder when we're talking about survivability and someone gives you a build that has good global recharge in it, and you discount it as not enough for some reason.

    Your lack of faith in Ice and Fiery is just... disturbing, too. Do you have any experience with either set? I'm rather dubious if you do, as everything you say goes against their numbers, what I have experienced with them, and what many others have experienced with them. You're going to have to make a stronger case for your points than questioning guides and ideas that have been around for a long while, and are based on the numbers you can see for the sets, and in-game experience.

    I didn't say the guide was wrong, I just said it doesn't tell me anything new.
    Tell you what, I'll just drop 'best tank' argument completely, too many variables to count. Going on just survivability, let me put it down this way,

    To have great survivability, you need great resistance, defense and regen.
    Past capped defense, ideally in just s/l/e/n, resistance is the second most important factor, again, in s/l/e/n. If we all agree till here, let's go further.

    You can cap almost every tank to s/l/e/n; after which what counts is resistance.

    Invuln, though with great s/l resistance, has low e/n; which makes it's survivability on a capped tank, lesser than that of an elec/dark (if you take and slot tough on all the builds). Other than that, dark/elec also have self heals, which I am guessing helps survivability too?

    Which is why I place them both above invuln on survivability.
    If I am wrong, I would really like to know where.


    About WP, I place it lower than invuln and the other two again, because of the resistance gaps; it does have great regen, mine goes up to close to 95hp/s with the rare alpha; but regen only counts 'if' you survive. Considering with careful play, one typically would, I find the regen on WP compelling, which is why I think it's a toss up between WP and invuln.

    But since the resistance is lacking on WP, I am not sure how it's survivability would be considered higher.
  8. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
    Uh...someone named Call Me Awesome posts in your thread with huge links in his signature to two Invulnerability guides and you want a pointer to "CMA's" guide to Invulnerability?

    Look, my own impression of the guide AND the set aside, that's been one of the most talked-about and recommended guides on the forums for a long time. The indication that you're unfamiliar with it says volumes in itself.



    Yeah, Brutes aren't especially tanks.
    Went through it; it's kinda for n00bs, isn't it?

    I am not sure what you're referring to in that guide that would change what I stated on tank survivability?
  9. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad View Post
    Wow, that must've taken some patience. Great work by that guy.

    And um now to the point, people think that this was possible because of Fiera Aura, and not the massive number of T3 insp's used?

    It's like saying, "An emp/ice fender just solo'ed the ITF; took 87 hours and 500m worth of insp's only! emp/ice is SO awesome"
  10. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BeastMan View Post
    Tubby hit the nail on the head!

    Really slainsteel you think that list is golden? In todays Coh its all about content and placing invul down that far on the list would even make superman throw-up in the toliet.
    I am not placing Invuln low, I am placing dark and elec higher.
    Again, remember, this list is for 'survivability'; assuming that all tanks are well built.
  11. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
    To be fair, he used truckloads of t3 insps, not that that diminishes the achievement much.
    Did he get the T3's while doing the TF? Or bought them from the market?
    If they came from the TF then it's fair game.
  12. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
    I am serious. A Fiery Aura brute soloed the STF. Granted that does not answer this topic's question, but it does suggest that rolling Fiery Aura is not an invalid choice.
    Can you link me to the thread? You do realize it is nigh-impossible for a Fire Aura brute to solo an STF right? In fact, at this point I don't know of any AT that _has solo'ed an STF

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
    To be on topic:
    Invuln and WP would be my top two. They are easy to use and easy to get very well rounded and practically unkillable vs. almost all game content.

    DA would be next, not because it's potential is lower than WP or Invuln, but because it requires more skill, a lot more skill in some cases. A mistake with DA is often irreversible (outside of the tier 9, if I can include the tier 9, than DA is indeed at least as good as Invuln and WP).

    Stone would be next. Stone Armor's survivability outside of Granite is very good once you soft cap Def to all but Fire/Cold. Back that up with modest Sm/Le/Fire/Cold resists, very solid regen, and an emergency heal that also can cap your HPs. It is possible with Aid Self this could lift above DA (the capped HP thing is pretty big, IME).

    Shield and Ice would come next, I think I'd list Ice just edging out Shield, but it is close.

    Finally we have Fiery Aura and Electric.
    You do realize the OP is about 'survivability' right? If you're putting WP and Invuln over Elec/Dark in survivability, I am guessing you need to start IO'ing your tanks.

    I'll agree with your entire post, as long as the tanks use only SO/Non-Set IO's or use IO sets really badly.
  13. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DoctorWhat View Post
    One soft capped Inv/SS build here, with solid recharge and damage. An expensive build, but what you asked for.
    Maybe our standards are different here; 60% rech isn't 'solid' recharge - I have better Invuln builds than that and I still find them inadequate.

    Though, I must say, I went back and looked at invuln again after this thread, and it is actually rather good. If I wasn't going for pure survivability, it looks like a good option.

    Though, when it comes to pure survivability, on really expensive builds, elec/dark still out-do it.
  14. slainsteel

    Best Debuff Set?

    POST-ACTION

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
    Are you seriously rolling Fallouts numbers in ther as if its always up?
    Yeah - I don't consider a debuff power that needs someone to 'die' as much use :P

    Otherwise I'd just take vengeance and call it a day; unfortunately, most of our TF's, we rarely have any deaths; at all.
  15. slainsteel

    Best Debuff Set?

    POST-ACTION

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by galadiman View Post
    I'm gonna go with Guffy here. And to respond to slain, if it's already dead, then the debuffs did their job.
    [The fact that they were never applied just means that the mobs were so scared of them, they just fell over dead/'arrested'.]
    That target is, but the 17 other enemies shooting at you aren't :P
  16. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning View Post
    While I tentatively agree that the BAF isn't "epic" in scope, we had an Omega Team moment in Tin Mage. We went to their world and we stopped an invasion, or at least paused it. And we came back. That's more than the Omega team did.
    I am fine with Apex and Tin, and I like the lore; they aren't that hard but the lore is great - Kings Row in ruins, stopping an invasion; then of course, doing the Omega team thing and stopping an invasion from starting. Though the tragic element on the Omega team did make it more dramatic.
  17. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
    Are you applying that same standard to the Dark and Elec Tankers in your list?
    Yep; and they are crazy hard to soft-cap too. Of course, fire cannot be soft-capped to all (unless someone has a super gimped build out there to do so). It has no +def power at all. Elec falls in the same boat as fire, but because of it's resistances, just capping to s/l/e/n still makes it one of the most solid tanks right after stone. Elec for example, can easily tank recluse with no support; tell me how many tanks that can?


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
    Eh, I didn't soft-cap fire/cold with one foe in range...it takes several...but that's quite sufficient for farming fire-wielding enemies at x8. I can't conceive that it's that difficult. Are you taking CMA's guide into account?

    Regarding Fire...you might be surprised.
    Which guide is this exactly?
    Fire Aura brutes are one of the best farmers in the game, but the worst tanks *shrug*
  18. slainsteel
    Added the Acc in fulcrum shift, removing the extra acc from transfusion (since transfusion is capped acc without the acc IO anyway).

    Other comments people
  19. slainsteel
    By the way folks, this is what I have _seen in the game and with my own tanks (I've had/have a Stone, WP, invuln, SD - I've played extensively elec/dark players who had really effective builds - I have yet to see a good ice or fire tank; most of them have ended up being a waste of a spot on my TF's) + experiments with builds.

    If you think I am wrong, please do feel free to post builds that show otherwise; I am human and I can make mistakes, but just posting an 'opinion' to counter what you feel is an 'opinion', doesn't really prove much.
  20. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos View Post
    Are you sure you are in the right AT forum?, Invul hard to softcap? *Blinks* For a tanker? And yet is Elec better then Dark, WP and Invul *blinks* A pure Resistance set is 'hard' and expensive to softcap but a set that includes a scaling defense power is almost 'impossible' without problems.
    Right, not personal opinions, really... *laughs*
    Really? Show me an invuln build that is soft-capped and doesn't lose out on damage and recharge.

    By soft-cap, I mean soft-cap to all except Psi, not just s/l.
  21. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
    Fiery Aura is so bad, a Fiery Aura brute just soloed the STF. That is pretty bad.
    Guess my turn to 'lolwut' here.
  22. slainsteel
    Fire/ has more damage, granted, but really, as a tank, it kinda sucks; which is why I don't consider it an option when looking at 'best damage'.

    With Shield Charge and AAO, SD beats all other tank primaries on damage.
  23. slainsteel
    Most survivable to least:

    Stone (king of the hill in survivability, by miles and miles)
    Elec (expensive though to soft-cap)
    Dark (KB can be an issue, plus expensive to soft-cap)
    WP (again expensive to soft-cap)
    Invuln (almost impossible to totally soft-cap unless giving up a lot)
    SD (best for damage)
    -- below this, really don't bother
    Ice
    Fire (don't roll a fire tank, really)

    When I say 'expensive', I mean both in inf and in terms of dropping other useful powers. This is just not my personal opinion, it's reality (except for WP/Invuln, lines are a bit muddled there).
  24. slainsteel
    Hey guys, thinking of doing a fire/kin troller - came up with this build.
    It's fairly cheap and looks nice.

    My aim was to get to very high survivability and super high recharge - additionally, I really don't like being on the ground, like ever :P I am a hover-a-holic.

    I want this build to be much more team buff oriented than anything else; I am horrible at buffing, unless it's the only thing I am really focusing on, so fire/kin seemed to make a long of sense. Keep buffing the team (both with SB and SP/FS) and throwing enemy debuffs; occasionally cast a new set of imps and do damage if needed.

    The build is at capped s/l and almost capped ranged; with a powerful heal, ideally he really shouldn't die, even if played quite carelessly.


    Any comments are welcome.


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  25. slainsteel
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
    I just wanted to toss out a brief comment on this part here... To answer the underlined question: No! For me, and I am sure many others, character concept trumps "power gaming" or number crunching every time. Granted, I would never be the guy asking to solo GMs or something, but I don't think it is a bit odd to want to preserve a concept while ALSO not sucking. And, I am also quite sure it is more than possible in most situations (outside of petless MMs, for example *shudder*).
    *shrug* playstyle
    I don't agree with it but I do understand it. Whatever makes the game fun for you