rian_frostdrake

yeah it struck me too, answered a lot of questions, and mollified a lot of my complaints. one topc i wonder is, jack always said coh was always in the black, good to know, but was that because we have a healthy community(not huge, and certainly nothing to match the 900lb gorilla, but a fairly good subscriber number for an mmo) or because we had the current team in indonesian sweatshop conditions, and with ncsoft reinvesting, and putting a sane number of people on the project, will they still stay in the black? ads and optional packs dont bother me, i see them as both inevitable and good comprimises vurses an across the board price increas, which i would likely pay, but might trim off a lot of users who dont frequent the boards and maybe dont feel as "attached" to the game as some of us.

But the question becomes, does the game remains sustainable at current subscriber numbers, because for having had three issues that were almost uniformly well recieved by the community we still ended up at lower subscription numbers. so it almost seems that quality is secondary to which mmo shepherds the most casuals with hype and free promotion from the mags and websites. so can we still hang with a more reasonable number of devs to pay?

but lest i end on a sour note, i agree with you, the devs made gold out of lead for almost 2 solid years, and the fact that the last 3 issues were made by 15 people only shows the depth of commitment of those incredibly talented people. Imagine if we had people like our devs with that other guy's subscriber numbers and budgets, they would be taking over the world.

yeah its april first, but dang if that wouldnt be kinda cool.

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Edit: that sounds like the worst TF ever... Jack's idea?

[/ QUOTE ]wow, posi and jack compete for that too?

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'Come back tomorrow'?

AARGH!



[/ QUOTE ]QR clearly smash bros has set something of a precedent. new powerset, landmaster tanks

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A random birthday present on your characters birthday per character is hardly a vet reward program.

[/ QUOTE ]its a reward only unlockable by playing for a pre-set period of time. thats a vet reward.

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Heh you're really reaching there on that definition but if it makes you happy knock yourself out

The few mmorpgs that have vet reward programs pretty much call them vet reward programs and have many things that you obtain over time broken into small increments from 1 day to coh's 3 months per. The only thing GW gives you is a random pet on your character's creation date. There are no rewards per month, day, week, year of ownership to reward loyal customers, only the pets. Hardly a veteran reward system.

[/ QUOTE ]reaching? its a system that rewards players for playing for a specified period of time with items inacessable from any other gameplay situation, how exactly is that not the DEFINITION of a veteran reward program?

also, exactly ONE mmo from the list of far more than a "few" mmo's had a one day reward, everquest 2. of the rest 3 had rewards every 3 months(cox, swg and tabula rasa). of the others, anarchy online, ultima online, guild wars, and everquest 2 after the first year all go by yearly increments. So there is no rule they go by any set period of time, merely that they are exclusive items gated by time playing a game. and as such, yeah the mini-pets are vet rewards. cosmetic ones, like 95% of cox's ones, but vet rewards nonetheless.

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As InfamousBrad said, if you've not gotten a door in the red zone on a lowbie, especially in Atlas, you might want to buy a few lottery tickets, because the odds are in your favor.

I've created three lowbie heroes in the last few weeks and all three got missions in the red zone at level 2 -- par for the course for me.

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That is the first place my new heroes get sent, to a red-zone far corner of the map! It is ridiculous.

It's in fact rare for them to get a mission which is within a half-mile.

And then they wonder why sewer teams form... no big surprises there. Although I really have to say, I don't much care for the sewers. Getting back to the sewers when you die can be problematic - you have to cross that zone, AGAIN, by yourself. Big fun.

CoV stomps all over CoH in this respect.

[/ QUOTE ] while i have learned to mitigate this through playstyle, this is very true. one thing i really woud like to see is once we get the extra people onboard, the coh early game,and the peregrine island content need a major redo. You havent got there yet, but the praetorian arc is basicly one long run of climactic battles in drab, boring backdrops. after seeing the castle seige map in mage killer's story arc there was very hard going back to forest map, star trek lab, and ruined city ad nauseum.

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A random birthday present on your characters birthday per character is hardly a vet reward program.

[/ QUOTE ]its a reward only unlockable by playing for a pre-set period of time. thats a vet reward.

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SWG vet rewards.


I played MUDs that didn't have vet rewards but they did have preferred membership where those that paid more each month got access to more in game. I'd rather have vet rewards.

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Thanks, when I tested SWG years ago they didn't have such a thing

[/ QUOTE ]you know, i was surprised to find that that one mmo dosent have vet rewards, but apparently it causes some consternation on their forums even, but ultima online, tabula rasa, star wars galaxies, guild wars, and eq2 all have vet rewards. so yeah as i have been saying, it is a thing in the industry.

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Guild Wars does not have vet rewards, Neither does UO last time I checked (which was a year ago) and I didn't see any mention of them in EQ2's website. Provide links to the vet programs for these please. I'd like to see what they're doing with them.

I've been playing Guild Wars since early-mid beta and have never seen any sort of vet reward program and seeing as you don't pay monthly fees this isn't surprising in the least.

[/ QUOTE ]guild wars gives you a mini pet every year on your anniversery, i got a necrid horseman, havent claimed my second year yet, hoping i get a factions-style dragon, though back when i played regularly i saw that undead dragons got mad cash. as for the rest, i see kyabasu and creole covered them, just do a yahoo search for veteran rewards, it will take you right there. funny thing is, i didnt know wow didnt have vet rewards, but the funny thin is, when I searched it, i found a bunch of threads on their boards complaining that they didnt, we got a mention in a few of them as an example of vet rewards, Woo. also i noticed we got the most hits for vet rewards, probably due to the number of distinct pages we have dedicated to them.
also, heres anarchy online's one. http://www.anarchy-online.com/wsp/anarch...p;table=CONTENT

of the 400 or so funny responses i could think of, after removing the ones that would get me banned or painted as a misogynist im left with...uh oh.

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Letting people select from a master list of rewards defeats the incentive to continue subscribing, even if you remove what some feel are the "best" items from that master list.

No one is "screwed". Everyone will get the rewards in time, if they keep their subscription active.

[/ QUOTE ]but thats the thing, i dont see them as incentive to keep playing, you and i have apparently agreed that people should play for the game,and i think thats a safe place to start. they are thank yous for playing. its like if your long term girlfiend gets you a blue DS, you werent staying with her for the ds, you werent thinking of the ds when you met her, and if she never gave you the ds, you wouldnt have been bothered, but getting it was a nice little gift from someone who you stay with for other reasons, not an incentive to stay with her. And to continue the metaphore,if she asked you what you wanted and you really wanted a psp instead, you would be much happier if she had asked and got you the psp you wanted rather than the ds you are ambivilant towards, thats what we are talking about, not staying for something, but if they are getting you soemthing anyhow, might as well be something you want.

dont agree wth that. people should never play for the vets. if wings or samurai armor are all that keeps you playing, you are not having fun. and the useful rewards still would be timelocked(i do disagree with chase on the power-token, the staves are too overwhelmingly good and everyone would pick them first, and that really would somewhat defeat the purpose). but the cosmetics, i dont think it hurts the system if its a bag of goodies you can pick from. unlike the powers, there is nothing inherently more valuabe in samurai armor or boxing clothes, so it really isnt that you get a better reward for staying on long enough for the boxing vurses anime armor or kilts, just a different one, so i dont think that if there is no qualitative difference that it would devalue the rewards to have them be pickable form a pool of options, it just makes new players who want to make boxers or anime warriors less screwed.

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Yes, the point ChaseArcanum makes is huge. Being able to choose from a pool like this would be huge relief for me, personally. It would still allow the Veteran Rewards program to exist and grow, keeping an incentive for existing players. And in turn, newer players have options to make the most out of their gaming/character experience, and it makes the current "4-year gap" (which will only continue to grow) far less intimidating.

Would having an option like this be such a bad thing?

[/ QUOTE ]i suggested it pages ago and no, the idea wouldnt be bad at all, it MAY be a significant investement of manpower programming wise though, dont know, some reports were that the vet system was what held issue 8 up, and changing that may add even more stress on a already full schedual for the devs. So it would be definitly good, a work of genius even , just might not be practical.

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gee, maybe they could introduce a system based on a vet token, that way you can pick the one you want(with certain gated exceptions like the staves and axe.) wonder why nobody ever suggested that before...in this thread even...


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Right, but people don't read threads, they tack on to whatever's at the end, so it's important to re-state the core good idea every now and then.

[/ QUOTE ]/egotrip well, if they want the good ideas,they can just follow my post history /egotrip

gee, maybe they could introduce a system based on a vet token, that way you can pick the one you want(with certain gated exceptions like the staves and axe.) wonder why nobody ever suggested that before...in this thread even...

and my counterpoint is, coh has more vet milestones every 3 months, eq2 and ultima online break down to years after the first year, so we get more "hits" to keep us going, as opposed to their very bare schedual of reinforcement. and as for the swg vets, which also are on a 3 month schedual, yeah there is a little lateral movement but if people really are upset about vets having cool things they cant, thats still there. the instant transport, the headset, those take 3 and 4 years, respectively, those are cool, and if i singned on now, i wouldnt get those for that frame of time, so i could be upset the same way the op is.

now, swg dodges a lot of this by making most of the rewards home based, and less visable in day to day play. but the home system in swg isnt really directly comparable to the one in coh, so comparing them directly might lead to some false weighting of comparisons, buuut, when you look at it, its still cosmetic bonuses, similar to what both costumes and base items have been here.

so i dunno, in all fairness i dont see much difference in the "uber" nature of coh/v's and that of the other games, we get some neat cosmetics, but they arent really game changing, id of course love to see the vet token system inplemented, if only for my ego's sake, though im thinking the programming to do that at this date would be non-trivial. but some people will always feel slighted if they dont have everything, and it virges on unrealistic to think that any system, no matter how well concieved isnt going to generate some threads of"i want it now" because thats the nature of humans and we would be freakish if we didnt feel that way.

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SWG vet rewards.


I played MUDs that didn't have vet rewards but they did have preferred membership where those that paid more each month got access to more in game. I'd rather have vet rewards.

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Thanks, when I tested SWG years ago they didn't have such a thing

[/ QUOTE ]you know, i was surprised to find that that one mmo dosent have vet rewards, but apparently it causes some consternation on their forums even, but ultima online, tabula rasa, star wars galaxies, guild wars, and eq2 all have vet rewards. so yeah as i have been saying, it is a thing in the industry.

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Sorry but that is unacceptable to just tell people to suck it up. This solution keeps most of the general populace happy, gives the vets something slightly more special then everyone else, yet not enough for the regular playerbase, outside of people who can only whine, something to whine about. It also doesn't deter new players like the current system can do.

Appreciate the feedback / discussion though

[/ QUOTE ]well, yes and no, if new players are upset that they cant have something shiney like the vets have, then some of them will still be put off by the fact that vets have a better looking version of their item than they do. they still are going to have to "suck it up", and you now add the fact that if the vet version isnt sufficiently impressive, then you ticked a portion of the vets off too, because they feel they werent given their entitlement. and thats what the problem comes down to, an inflated sense of entitlement, some people, either through luck, higher skill, a bigger support network or simply more time will have more than other players, and some of those players will be jealous, nothing is going to fix that because the system itsself is bad, but because people have the natural inclination to want it all, now, and all the proposed ideas wont really fix that. you sometimes just have to acknowlege that some people are going to be unhappy because of their own unrealistic expetations, and do your best to keep those people happy that can be reasonably dealt with.

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because the sewers isn't content, and I don't know about you, but when I try out a new game, I want to see its content.

[/ QUOTE ]eh, not really going with you there. sewers are content as much as the misions are, yeah its one map, and no specific storyline, but at that level its your best chance to get a really large group going and fight large group spawns. the thing about mmo content is, at least in the beginning, its generally similar across the different games, kill 10 rats missions, get 10 rat-tails missions, maybe a harvesting mission and some fed exes. yeah tis content, but im not sure if i would say its much more engageing than the sewers. even at the unimpressive powers we have at that point, you can still get a pretty dynamic and fun group going with 6 others.

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Your mileage may vary, but I don't want to be taunted with a display of something I can't have for four years..... every three months. So I have to imagine this is a business model that will only get worse exponentially as it progresses until either new sign-ups disappear completely and the game perpetuates solely on currently existing customers until they all quit or die out...... or the system changes. It's not just about me -- it's the new customer base I'm concerned about.



[/ QUOTE ]your concern is appreciated, but there is a reason all the mmos do vet rewards, because they have been proven to work, thats it. If vet rewards were found to cause a lot of new users to leave, they would have noticed it and dropped them, but they apparently dont, because just about EVERY one does it. does it bother some people, yeah, and i have made comments on numerous occasions for them to do a token based system where you could choose what cosmetic reward you get(you want samurai at 3 months, cash in the vet token, you boxing too? see ya next quarte), and have "useful" rewards like the staff and sands/axe at set times. But vet rewards exist for one reason, because they have been found to work.

you know, i have certainly had my reservations with vet rewards, i dont like the fact that for things like samurai armor and wings were so far off, but the buffing pet really isnt that impressive, they have few hit points and have minor buffs, from what i hear(wont have mine till june) but a even con aoe can drop them. but yeah, vet rewards are a time honored tradition in mmo's, and outside of the vet staves, they arent that game changing. i would have done it differently, but the vet rewards arent that bad in relation to other mmos, im not sure what wow does, but i recall eq2 having some VERY good vet rewards that bordered on breaking the low game(12 slot backpack, yes please). but i dont think that anyone who dislikes the vet rewards we have will be happy with the vet rewards anywhere else. 90% of them are cosmetic or simple mechanics tokens for costumes and respecs. as for optional expansions, i dont go with you there, paid expansions are industry standard, i cant have fae if i dont buy an expansion, i cant have draeni without burning cursade, i cant have good looking faces unless i buy nightfall, it happens, again, if that bothers them here, they will be bothered in every mmo.

now, as for the low level game, i have to say, i can see why coh is a little different, for one, we can outrun enemies, i know most older "standard" mmos once you start a fight, you are stuck unless you zone or train them to the guards. also, we can face a lot more enemies than early game in other games. but i dunno, i found the early game a lot easier because of that than i did when i tried eq, FFXI and daoc, i died a hell of a lot more there in the low game. I'd say that coh isnt awkward and confusing, its that people are used to awkward and confusing setups and have to relearn it, but you cant have progress without things being unfamiliar, but without progress, you have stagnation, you have boredom...you have wow but they need to unlearn the old ways and appreciate that its easier here. tell them to ask, we havea rep for being helpful here, try that.

I dont know what to say, we get people saying this stuff a lot, and the fact is, it gets frustrating hearing people say that other games are more user friendly because they do everything the same way as everyone else, learning is NOT that damn hard, just try.

i didnt really have a problem with the current live one, wasnt in love with it either, but this seems better for those who did, now the offline kicker thing would be nice if you can do it, not sure how easy it would be.

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some of our famous complainers will undoubtedly see this take over pvp and muo as the new reason we dont have everything already,

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I don't believe MUO is a valid concern anymore. Scroll down to the second article.

[/ QUOTE ]yeah i know i was referring to how certain people have these elaborate conspiracy theories about things that are taking away from the game. muo and pvp were old favorites.

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May I be the first to issue a
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...ok, grats on the event; comic isn't too bad (apart from the much-debated $10-for 2 costumes and 4 emotes pack).

-r0y

[/ QUOTE ]you'll never take us alive. we're like mexican candy, we've got complex flavors coming up in here. (ok geeks, spot the reference, ill start you off, its under the category "music")

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They are clearly testing this to see what the response is, my VALID response if hell no. Don't defend mediocrity! It doesn't help you or the game. If this pack had something worth the price that would be one thing - this is a costume and three emotes.
All I said was I won't be buying it and IF this becomes a trend, I won't continue to subscribe as I have done for 3+ years. I'm neither a whiner or a hater. My feelings are just as valid as yours. Of course, if you are 12 you won't understand that, if you're a day over 12 get over yourself.

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But see my feelings that the pack is cool and that I'm happy to buy it is just as valid.

See I liked and I bought it and I likely would buy more and think they where cool. This is just as valid of an emotional reaction.

Do I think it would have been better priced at $5.00? Yes, but $9.99 wasn't out of my reach for something I don't mind buying.

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I agree that you view is valid. The only reason I am posting an argument is because I think that if it does continue then free updates will suffer and the pay-per-pack will excalate in what they have.

[/ QUOTE ]its a difficult argument to make though, you can always speculate that they held content off to make it pay per, but you cant prove it, so its really how you feel about the devs wether you beleive that. some of our famous complainers will undoubtedly see this take over pvp and muo as the new reason we dont have everything already, but i just dont see that, it dosent fit the behavior i have seen from the devs. ill conceed that if it really gets that bad, and we cease getting free costumes and have new costume packs every month or so, then i start drawing the line.

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They are clearly testing this to see what the response is, my VALID response if hell no. Don't defend mediocrity! It doesn't help you or the game. If this pack had something worth the price that would be one thing - this is a costume and three emotes.
All I said was I won't be buying it and IF this becomes a trend, I won't continue to subscribe as I have done for 3+ years. I'm neither a whiner or a hater. My feelings are just as valid as yours. Of course, if you are 12 you won't understand that, if you're a day over 12 get over yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]and conversely, my feelings are as valid as yours, and i found it worth it, so stop the name calling and acting like you are on some moral high ground to tell me what i can or cant spend my money on, or its relative worth. quit if you want to quit, thats your call, but to tell me that im defending mediocrity by buying a pack that i find is worth the money, is you shoving your nose in my affairs. get over your own over-inflated sense of self, and get the hell out of my business.

id prefer chase not dead, i need someone to mooch pizza from.

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just so we know who we are dealing with, are you counting last year's releases as failures? given that they were hugely popular with the community and rolled out without major bugs, due to the closed beta testing, im just seeing what your definition of failures is, and wether there really is any rational space to debate the point in.

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Alright, but remember, you asked for it....
Issue-9 ....had very limited actual Beta Involvement across the player base and even less actual testing on drop rates or any way to verify them(Pool-C's being the hardest to verify). Issue-11 was a cluster-bomb of channel-drama that saw the release of several bugged and untested IO sets since there was no direct market access to them--especially Pool-C's ...these 2 issues of oversight conspired together to make TFs/SF's the targets of "pool-C farmers" which just saw a huge stealth Nerf [u]despite the Devs' own promises that none of the existing content would be made more difficult to compensate for the implementation of I.O's.[u]

The entire issue could have been fixed issues ago by focusing feedback and testing on TF rewards for casual players so that everyone was getting rewards at a rate that satisfied demand and discouraged farming. ...when that failed to happen, Farming took over and solved the problem it's own way. Meanwhile the devs HAD the resources(All of Us!) to fix the CAUSE of the problem instead of just treating an ugly symptom of it. Instead what we got now is some very un-informed corporate doublespeak labeling RMT'ers as the scapegoats and a solution that will only further reward the farmers they claim they're trying to stifle.



When I say 4 years of failure, this is exactly what I mean... Simple feedback and pro-active effort on the part of the Guys at the top of the design decisions easily fixing the problems early on, but instead what we get are Half-Truths and stealth-nerfs designed to bypass player Scrutiny entirely. ...followed by bad explanations and excuses later on. It's tiring. I understand it's how American business sometimes works, but I don't want to feel like the mid-level Devs I WANT to support so much, have to work in Dilbert's Office for a buncha "pointy-haired Bosses".

[/ QUOTE ]ah so its basicly an extension of the tf [censored] fest, sorry not buying that. Find me a real failure that wasnt the fault of the community not giving enough valid feedback. some feedback from the commuity is good, but lets remember that during the issue 11 beta, the community itsself was chastened by the devs for having a "too high noise to information ratio" you severly overestimate how much valuable information has really come from the community. there are times we caught real problems, like the giant monster change a few issues ago, but in EVERY issue a minor issue has caused a major outpouring of hate from some segment of the population, its it a valid concern or is it a fit of pique related to a small but vocal group that wasnt done milking a specific exploit?