planet_J

Originally Posted by Rylas

How did I not see that post!? Yes, I think that pretty much hit the spot. Balanced approach. And I don't think Brutes would notice all that much difference. How many brutes constantly run at 90% res and the damage cap? I play them quite a bit, and doing either is pretty difficult to do, let alone sustain.

Originally Posted by Jabbrwock

Do they? I was under the impression that, when fully buffed, Brutes and Tankers had the same max HP. Less than fully buffed, Tankers win because they have higher base HP. That said, I've been only erratically in touch with the CoH community for quite a long time now, so lots has changed without me noticing.

Personally, since the two AT's were inspired by pretty much the same comic book characters anyway - bricks - I'd say just eliminate the differences entirely. Give Brutes Bruising and Gauntlet, lower their damage cap slightly to compensate for Bruising. Give Tankers Fury, lower their damage, defense, and resistance scales to match Brutes, and give them the same caps as modified Brutes. Make the only difference between the AT's be which set is primary and which is secondary, and thus what levels you get to take which powers.

[Edit] snipped some stupid rambling, as opposed to the rest of my post which may be stupid, but I think is at least somewhat to the point.

Yes, I feel safe making this suggestion because I believe there is absolutely no chance of it being followed. Heck, my *REAL* suggestion would be to literally merge them into a single Brick AT. That would annoy more players and take more work, though, so I moderated it.

Originally Posted by Hopeling

I'm not sure that's what that post meant. I parsed it as "I got my best times with (the standard TW chain, and this chain during BM)", not "(I got my best times with the standard TW chain) and (using this chain during BM) [did not improve that time]".

Originally Posted by Ultimus

This is just the simple formula since B's attack chain utilizes a 50% damage for 10 seconds every time Y (I am not sure how often its being popped) it becomes more complex.

Originally Posted by Rylas

Yes, and if we're taking averages, then we can't assume the defense character never gets hit. This is what I was trying to point out with your argument. You assume one person has special luck, but then apply law of averages to the other. You're already using unfair measurements for your basis. If one gets special luck streaks, you have to apply that same special luck streak on the other side of the equation.

Originally Posted by Rylas

I already explained it, but here it is in case you couldn't see it:

<snip to cut out snarky incessant babbling without proper interpretation>

Originally Posted by John_Printemps

I'm not so sure that a well-built Regen Scrapper vs. Brute is going to be that noticeable. Brutes do get an advantage in "throwing their weight around" with nearly 600 more HP potential, but Scrappers also have a higher Regen cap, so at full-throttle their gaps aren't going to be that big. Comparing a Scrapper HP capped vs. a Brute HP capped at ~1700 Regen was 180 hp/s vs. 215 hp/s respectively.

May be a 35 HP difference, but I think the biggest applicable item of interest that really defines the secondary on either AT is the fact that Brute must stay in combat with a target to keep Fury up, and are likely taunting in some fashion in the process. They're inadvertently forcing themselves to take more damage than the Scrapper would have taken. In a sense, the Brute requires that extra breathing room just to function at the same level. In the case with a Scrapper, they can willfully (and rather artfully) skip in and out of combat ("kiting") without any real loss in damage output.

So, in that analysis, I--personally--feel Scrappers get more mileage out of top-end performance versus Brutes.

Originally Posted by Ultimus

Interesting. So since SS gets 160% more damage at all times then TW only passes it by when SS does finally hit the cap and TW gets that extra 160% damage?

Originally Posted by Rylas

Well, the point of the post was that Defense has it's drawbacks as well as Resistance. Which goes back to what I was responding to, "placing them on equal footing by raising the res cap to 95%." They're on equal footing already, they don't share the same weaknesses, but they both have their own strengths. There's no need to raise one or the other.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

Fine.

My hypothetical, exactly 100 damage attack would deal EXACTLY 523.2 damage on a Tanker if you count Bruising. What a huge difference it made.

You still have not explained how it is fair for a Tanker to deal more damage than all of these ATs:

Corruptors: 375
Defenders: 220
Controllers: 220
Dominators: 500
Epic ATs (all 4): 400
Mastermind: 220 (pets make the real number much higher)

.....while having much better survivability than all of them.

You're only 5% lower than BLASTER DAMAGE. I will let that sink in for a second. You are seriously proposing that the toughest thing in the game have a maximum damage potential that is only 5% lower than the squishiest.

Also, since this is using YOUR rules, as in "everyone is at their caps to everything all the time", you make Defender primaries, and Corruptor, Controller, and Mastermind secondaries completely useless. What good are buffs if everyone on the team is capped to everything already? What good are debuffs if nothing can hit you? The only debuff that would be worth anything is -resistance.

Look at the numbers for those ATs' damage output again. When everyone is capped and half of those characters' abilities are useless, all they have to bring to the table is that amount of damage.

And you think it is FAIR and BALANCED for a Tanker to out-damage the majority of them, while shrugging off damage that will one-shot all of them? Unbelievable.

Also, since Tanker base values are so much higher, they need less help than anyone else to reach their survivability peak.

All the above points are why I am in favor of Brute maximum potential being reduced.

And the most unbelievable thing is: You actually believe that is a perfectly sane and reasonable request.

There's already 1 broken AT in the game....why do you want there to be 2? Wouldn't it make more sense to fix the one that's broken instead of breaking another one? (Most reasonable people would answer "yes" here, but I know you're not going to)

Originally Posted by Psiphon

I was talking about the softcap which is the same for all - 45% in normal play - non-incarnate. Brutes are as capable as Tanks of hitting this with the +def uniques.

Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane

Nobody is asking for Tankers to do more damage than Brutes at the cap.
I'm asking for the Tanker damage cap to be raised from 400% to 545%, which would, if my math is correct, put Tanker single target damage at the cap (after Bruising) to 90% of what a Brute can do at their cap. I think this is fair because Brutes get 90% of Tanker maximum HP at the cap, and are otherwise numerically identical.