plainguy
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Posts
2007 -
Joined
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Quote:Both are correct, Mia Culpa. I was thinking of my Defender when posting..Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
That 25% def number is for Defenders, certainly not MMs.
I know earlier in thread I poo-pood my FFer, but I took Power Boost from Mace Mastery and the +Def for bubbles goes up substantially, probably enough to soft-cap with Maneuvers and Dispersion.
But regardless I am full positional defense cap with my Robot Traps, which oddly enough is not that easy to come by with my FF Robots because the bubbles are for others and not me. I believe I do have a Full positional defense cap FF build in the hopper atm waiting to be respeced into. I just recall having more issues trying to get it accomplished compared to traps. With Traps I pretty much have a base line regardless of the AT that I use and then pick the rest of my powers after that is done. -
I would like to have the ninja run without the ninja as well. I'm tired of standing around looking like count dracula without his cape.
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Just chiming in Bots Traps. Bots because of the damage type they do and Traps because its that good.
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I have both at 50 and both set up with IOs towards the defense cap. I can honestly say my Traps outshines my FF. My Traps with maneuvers offers a straight 25% defense bonus to anyone near me on my team. FFG also offers other status bonuses as well. My FF MM has to cast bubbles on each person on the team to just about establish similar effects. 7 players 2 bubbles, you do the math. Further you have to purposely stagger the bubbles this way they just all don't drop out at the same time.
Sadly with the introduction of IOs FF is less needed. There was a time the Tank was looking for a FF player to help shore up his missing defenses. But today with invention set bonuses you can pretty much make up what your might be lacking. I have several defense cap toons which are not Brutes Tanks or Scrapper. I have others that are Ranged Defense cap. I have done every TF / SF at one point or another and I have never heard anyone say darn we can't do this unless we have a FF player. But again I have never really heard anyone say we can't do this TF unless we have x type player let alone a FF player.
They really need to come up with almost a 2nd choice for some secondaries so you can either have the classic power or the new alt power. This way it won't break this cottage rule they hold up so high on a pedestal and everyone is happy.
Traps is just more fun regardless of what you have with it.. You can be a Shoemaker / Traps and still kick some backside with only using traps. -
Don't go poison unless its your GF toon and your playing the Traps.
Personally I would make toons that stand on there own so if you bail from the game or she bails from the game either one of you is not stuck with something that might be sort of lacking because you relied on the other so much.
Whomever takes the Traps is going to be able to obtain positional defense cap. So solo running on setting of 8 or in a 8 person team they will do fine. But the poison player will not be able to do the things the Traps player can. It can be a bit disheartening.
I would suggest Dark because Darkest Knight can give you defense cap as well. Granted I am not a big fan of having a toggle debuff needed for increasing my defenses, since things can go wrong, like detoggle due to stun or endurance drop, Darkest Knight Anchor running off, etc. But Dark is still powerful and between Triage Beacon increased regen and Darks heal its nothing to complain about.
Pain isn't bad as well, you can get some limited form of Defense cap mingled in with regen that pain offers. So you could play a tankermind role as well. I haven't finish building up my DS Pain and slotting to really tell you how it is working for me so I can only speculate looking at the numbers and such. Again not a big fan of talking about builds I don't personally play because I can't give you an honest feel for the build.
Even double traps is great. You will both have kick butt toons. You could provoke a AV between each other like a ping pong. You get a big hit from an AV that sneaks in. You stop attacking and she provokes the boss onto her to give you chance to regen from the double Triage Beacon going. You can alternate dropping a Triage Beacon so you will always have one running.
The more I think about it I think double traps would be the way to go. If your that into it you could actually get positional defense cap at around lvl 26 or 27. It would cost you thought to slot 6 Gaussian into Tactics for each toon and 4 slotting defense IOs into FFG and Maneuvers.
Here is the build as an idea. End result at level 26 you both would have 50% to positional defense as would anyone else on your team. Which includes your pets. I would put the lockdown proc in poison traps and watch tons of mobs being held between the poison mist or the proc. Put the -res proc in Acid Mortar. 3 Heal/Recharge IOs in Triage. The next 24 levels will be very easy for the both of you when your together.
Now it is at this point you can either go the route of being self sufficient and obtaining personal defense cap so when solo your good. Or if your that sure this will be a duo effort then you can sacrifice that and pick up a few different powers that you normally would not. Its a tough call to make.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 48 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Villain Profile:
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What are you looking to pick up primary and secondary wise ?
If you go Rogue at 44 you can pick up Scorpion Shield from Mace Mastery which can give you a decent amount of S/L Defense. If you were going to go the route of S/L without a doubt that would be the easiest way of doing it with limited amount of effort of trying to get it through IOs.
Range wise from looking at some Ranged Cap builds I have These are some of the main IO's you will be looking for. Remember the rule of 5.
Thunder Strike
Mako Bite
Gaussian
Red Fortune
Eradication
Cleaving blow
Executioners contract
Stupefy
Numina Convalescences
Honestly Energy Manipulation along with your range attacks will sort of help you get this easier then some other sets might. Since you can slot both Thunder Strike in range attacks and Mako Bite in melee attacks in EM.
Many primary power sets have a snipe attack as well. -
Quote:I know I said I was done, I guess I lied.Originally Posted by Dragonkat
You know I'm trying, but I'm sorry Plainguy I really just can't respect that last post of yours. Or someone who complains about how the pro dev people can't see the faults (which we do) Yet then turns around and so utterly biased against the set to the point of not teaming with it? And saying we should take anything else but dev?
I just wanted to say I never said I would not group with a AR Device. I said you should not pick up Device as a secondary unless you clearly know what your getting into. I would never not pick up someone because I felt they had a poor secondary. In today's game you do not need 8 players to do much. I have done LGTF and ITF speed runs with 4 players because we all had some sort of defense cap, either full or range.
Further I do not hate Devices.. Thus this thread http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=187775
To me that smells of SO slotting as you know slotting a KB protection IO can produce similar results. I think just asking in the forums will give you an almost unanimous response regarding slotting acrobatics or KB IO.Quote:I for one stick with combat jump to get to acrobatics
I am more then positive that soft capping range defense is not a waste. I think your more upset then anything because I think if you ask again you will get some positive responses in these forums about the benefits of soft capping range defense.Quote:for that matter to waste my time softcapping defense, I'm too busy pumping out damage and leaving everything around me dead.
Pumping out damage comment would only relate to your primary. Further I do not know what your primary is. If its AR then we can debate it as S/L is of course one of the most resisted damage types in the game. That of course works on both ends of the game Player wise and NPC wise. So inherently you will be doing less DPS with AR compared to other Primaries.
As to your comment about Maelstrom, I do the same with my AR Device. But with my Arch EM I use BU, Total Focus and Bone Smasher and call it a day. So your right I can drop down 3 trip mines at 7 second recharge for about 21 seconds or kill him in 6 seconds with EM.
Other then that below perfectly summarizes the issues.
Quote:Originally Posted by AnotherFanThere is a range on how noticeable it is, that depends on what its paired with and whether or not you have bosses in your spawns.
It was most noticeable on my AR/DEV vs AR /Energy, /Mental, /Fire. As the spawns get larger and /dev needs more prep
In general if I am making use of devices major powers it adds an amount of time that is a significant fraction of the fight.
Sometimes other people can say in a few sentences what I was trying to say with a several paragraphs.
If your running your Device toon with Single Origin Enhancers then without a doubt all the powers in Device will seem invaluable. I am starting to feel that SO vs IO might be some of the issues here. Because you just can't get defense cap with SO running a Device toon. So it's gonna be over rated when your talking in those terms. Of that is until you get and and notice how much less your dieing. -
Quote:Come on.. Should I respond I know what you are but what I am I ?Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
And that's why you fail at this thread - you keep on insisting on bringing in other things that have NOTHING to do with Blasters and Devices.
You failed to bring up anything worth while that cannot be clearly done or mimicked by another AT or power.
Its okay if you don't understand but don't try to be the bully that beats up everyone because he doesn't know how to read.
Bring something to the table and prove your point(s)... You haven't.
Quote:Originally Posted by JD_GumbyThere are no crap powers in DevicesI think the point was already made why its not the way you wish it to be. So your idea is bad and wrong..Quote:Originally Posted by JD_Gumbythe ONLY changes it needs are for the snipe bonus on Targetting Drone to apply to ALL sniper attacks
Further no one said any of the Device powers were crappy. You did.. But if your insinuating that all of Device powers are good as is. Well I think everyone has already admitted that Devices needs some work.. So your in the minority or just wrong.. I don't care which one you pick..
Either way this issue is a circular debate.. I'm done.. My stand is Device needs updating and should not be used if you have a choice as there are better choices to pick from as a blaster or any other AT. Further going Rogue has open up the doors for both sides so you have a tons more to choose from. Your truly picking one of the weakest secondary sets as a blaster. If your a blaster and its all about the DPS then Device isn't it.. If your not about the DPS well then any damage type AT will suffice.
If your gonna babble about soft control with device so can other ATs and some can do it better. So if I am looking for control and holds I will not be asking for a device blaster to join my team. Further you loose something for that "soft control" and that is DPS. I thought blasters where about DPS. Since that's what your saying you mow them down and pick off the bosses. Which I highly doubt works that way for you.. But what ever. My Arch EM can kill everything including bosses. I don't need to pick off anyone.
I am more then positive Device has been one of the most debated secondaries posted on these forums and will continue to be. For now I'm done with this. I am sure in the next several months when this thread is long gone and scrolled off the first 2 or 3 pages we will be posting in another similar thread. -
Quote:Your off the mark here. Your implying that those who agree with the OP need not apply. Which is wrong.. So basically we will have a thread in which the OP does not like Device and everyone who thinks its great, but by there own words still agree that Device has some issues, still will say Device is fine as is and we are done.. That is wrong.. Dead wrong..Originally Posted by LukeMinhere
You are the only one that is being rediculously simple here. The OP plainly asked "Why take devices as a secondary", you seem to add your own "not" in there, and then choose to answer a question not asked. And my statement that you quoted was the idiotic one? Get real davie boy, and admit you do not like any set you can't just button mash.
What do you know of a "good team"? You think strategy slows teams down? My answer is, you know nothing of a "good team". It actually quickens the pace, because you do not have noobs being res'ed constantly, or teams splitting up because the tank went left and the squishies went right. Specifically "strategy" speaking, of course.
Now go to bed young man, and stay out of the adults conversations.
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On to ACTUAL topic:
Devices, like any other set, could be tweeked. I fear if they did, however, they would do what they are famous for. "Fixing" it, and it being too powerful, so they have to "re Fix" it, making it worse than it originally was. It is quite playable, and is played and apparently liked and defended, by many. Button mashers need not apply, true, but when utilizing the set properly, you can even out perform many of the others in higher level situations.
Solo, it is completely awesome. In PvP, it was THE BEST, before they "fixed" PvP, of course. See point made about fixing.
In teams, if you consider that you can keep the button mashing squishies safe, while delivering damage, and not taking anywhere near the damage they take, it is a well rounded secondary.
One last thing I really like about devices is that you do not blow your wad with one attack. With time bombs (which apparently, looking at the numbers, I need to utilize more), and trip mines, you have a great damage provider while maintaining your endurance. If you like a steady pace, as opposed to "boom" and you are out of there (dead from no endurance or killed everything), then devices performs very well.
The argument of "but it could...." is moot. We could all be given a "god mode" button and never use stratey again, as some may prefer. However, if we are talking the actual game, and the actual subject, and what devices offers as is, and why take it....then there you go.
Some just cannot stick to subject at hand.
A simple observation you mention Time Bomb but fail to express to someone new that Time bomb has a 6 minute timer. So if I were new I would come here and by just reading all the great stuff about Device I would believe by your statements that I can pick up both and be dropping both bombs every pull. Which of course is incorrect.
Look I just find that common sense wise that players are going to compare Cloaking device and smoke to super speed and stealth IO. I understand that some have issues with the control factor in a cave and I get it. But trying to bend a bit and not get into some big fight over it, I have to now say lets not make it such a big deal as if your traveling at light speed and just keep crashing into walls. It is nothing like that. I could turn the tables and say its P.I.C.N.I.C. ( Problem In Chair Not In Computer )
If we are going to talk about "Strategy" which I have to concur it does sound silly to use that word in this game. I would consider it Strategy if Device was giving me something another power or Arch Type could not, but sadly it does not. Posters are going to brag about how they can stealth a glowy when another set can just walk in and click it as well again under different circumstances and different variables, but none the less accomplishing the same thing. Further your smoke stealth does not help against high perception mobs. So unless you have some defenses to back that up your glowing clicky idea will not work. Where as the defense cap route it works not only in that instance but many other instances as well.
My simple thoughts are unless you are in some sort of Role play group that you must be a blaster and want a gadget type them for your own reasons or some sort of AR Device only group then I would suggest and express that another AT with Traps is a better route. It offers powers that can be used solo and with teams that are more group centric that can also be of use to you solo. Further a moderate amount of recharge you have the ability to double stack some of these beneficial powers on top of still being able to achieve some sort of defense values which are very, very beneficial to you and your team mates when your on a team.
So with that being said unless you can provide some actual instance in which Device can out perform Traps or do something that 1 power and an IO can achieve I just see no reason to pick up Device in today's game.
NOW, if they made some changes to the other powers to Device that other sets did not have then I can see were someone might want to consider picking up devices.
Further I am not saying that posters in favor of Device didn't not know of its lacking nature. But I feel that some felt so compelled to defend it that they just didn't take the time to say or admit that Device does have some lacking attributes that could need improvement. Which again I did comment on as well as dave_p. Not beating up on Bosstone, but he is a perfect example of coming to defense and not expressing devices down falls until later on in some postings. Though he is not the only one. Seebs on the other hand I think expressed well in his write up the ups and downs of Devices. If you take Device within the context of what Seebs wrote about and mentioned then you have nothing to complain about. If you picked up Devices after reading all of this you have nothing to complain about.
Again not its not pick on Bosstone day, but speaking of his Fire / Device. I see Silverado using his Fire Traps corruptor taking out AVs solo. Yea I understand blaster forum. But we have to be talking about performance and efficiency here and not theme, otherwise all these posting and threads don't mean a thing. Perfect example I have a semi Petless DS ( last pet only ) / Traps MM. Why ? Because I have 16 other lvl 50s and 8 are defense capped and alpha slotted. Its a personal endeavor just to see how it works. It's a RP theme build as well to me. So discussing it beyond he mechanics of it is useless. So today with going Rogue I see no reason why someone who was well informed and understanding of game mechanics would bother with device unless it was a theme reason or was trying to achieve something for the sake of doing it with device. -
Quote:I have both Taser and Bean Bag 6 slotted for Range Defense cap reasons.. Taser works better then Bean Bag. It seems if I hit someone with Taser they get stunned where as with Bean Bag its iffy. I usually need to back up Bean Bag with Taser. But again at that point I just don't know if stacking worked or just that Taser worked. I notice once I have one going I can use either to perma stun. But really I only see it uses against Gunslingers and mobs of those types. Longbow nullifiers usually come in sets of 2's in a group so I am more just trying to make them or force them to toss out that defense grenade and then moving into my actual setup position and then trying to kill them before it cycles back up again.Originally Posted by LukeMinhere
At one time it had a long range, then they knocked it down to melee, I believe, now it has range again, I think 20' is right. Something like that anyway. I was never a huge fan of it, as it seldom works, when used alone, on bosses, which would be my main reasoning for having it.
In PvP it was great against squishies, but not sure how that has been tweeked now.
My only /devs are either AR/ or DP/, both of which have their own ranged stun. I have considered branching out with /dev, however, and trying other sets, which would make taser something I would think more useful. As it stands, I combine it with with my other stuns, and have had some success with it at higher levels on bosses.
I guess my question would be, is it viable if it stands alone now? -
@ Totino
Regardless of what I slotted I needed the Cardiac Alpha.
I did end up doing a Respec mission and reslotting my endurance as I mentioned and 5 slotted Full Auto. I can notice the difference, it was 95% damage and its now 99% damage. It's 4% but it really is noticeable.
@ Obitus mentioned regarding the holds. Without a break free and mobs coming in that seems to be my down fall. What I do is now make sure I have a current jetpack and I have another jetpack temp as backup. When I think I am going to have issues with being held if I can I fly up above to stay out of melee range I do. This way I can fire off my first 2 attacks that Blasters can do while being held.
General comments and thoughts
If they could make just ONE and only ONE change to Device. I would ask for greater Defenses coming from Cloaking Device and have the ability to get Crits from Cloaking Device, similar to what VEATs have ATM. This would of course allow me a bit more Frankenslotting.
Similar to what Nethergoat mentioned regarding mobs. Longbow Nullifiers are a pain. I tend to target then ASAP. As I do Malta Gunslingers and those Malta robots that fire off that hold..
There are times I notice I get a bunch of hits on me even if there are no mobs killing my defenses. Oddly much more then I would on my Archer EM. I think its because simply I am just out of range with my Archer with boost range.
Again there are not so many ways to obtain defense range cap with this build and without it I think your survivability is less without it. Before as mentioned in another thread Aid Self is nice but I found myself at times just running away to try to get an Aid Self off, just to get another hit immediately after and then trying to use Aid Self again because the heal Aid Self is providing isn't sufficient.
Overall using Jetpack while being mezzed, held or slept seems to be a big help. -
Quote:The reason it only works with AR Sniper attack is Device has no buildup, and many complained that every other secondary had build up. So they added that in.Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
I would! But I'm weird - I actually like having most of the spawn go bye-bye in a single blast with me waiting in perfect safety to pick off any remaining LTs and Bosses with a couple of more standard shots. Those who like the "Go! Go! Go!" lifestyle should choose a different set. Devices is almost fine as it is for those of us with a smidgen of patience. (the ONLY changes it needs are for the snipe bonus on Targetting Drone to apply to ALL sniper attacks, and for Taser to have some range like the real thing does (35' range for the police/military model would be out of the question, I think, for balance purposes, but the 15' maximum legal civilian range should be fine))
Taser did get its range increased. So you want its range increase even more. It used to be shorter then it is now. -
As milehigh77 mentioned I think its only the first upgrade you get..
But it is cool -
@Doctorwhat and anyone else..
I am not trying to sound like a guys privates here. But what your doing with smoke grenade and clicking and glowy I am doing in plain sight. There is just not much mobs can do to me. The defense cap thing is that big of a big deal. It really is like doing something in defiance of authority.. I can have 10 guys trying to beat on me and I'm just clicking the glowy regardless.
@Gemini_2099
The impression I am getting is your equating picking up super speed as if we are short or limited in power choices. With i19 out the only thing many of my builds just needed was slotting up 3 new 1 slot powers.. Many of my builds were fine before i19. Further I think you might be a bit confused. With a Stealth IO in Super Speeds one and only slot I can toe bomb and stand near mobs that do not have any special abilities to see stealth or have a higher perception persay as in snipers or Rikti Drones for example.
Your trying to compare 2 powers to 1 power with an invention. And lets be honest its not like you have to super speed through every mission. Your setting up before going in on a mob and then your laying down One trip mine or one time bomb and one trip mine at a mobs feet. But after that your done you can turn of super speed while your firing off full auto. It doesn't cost you any game time to turn off a power. I get the issues in caves and certain missions, but it's not game ending. If I feel I need more control I just activate my jet pack that last 2 hours. Even with my AR Device I use jet pack a lot to keep my distance from mobs to leverage my capped range defense.
@ Dragonkat
With the Archery combo issue, I will admit it is hard to debate it as too many variables come in. Range defense cap, which secondary. I know with energy manipulation your just out of range so you cannot be hit. Even if you weren't but were at defense cap you can still use Roa, explosive shot and then move in with fistfull of arrows to finish them off. Which is similar to Toe bomb and Full auto followed by some other attacks to kill of stragglers. But the one thing I can say is your not going to be able to do that toe bomb stuff in a team setting.
Team play with a Device toon is much different then solo play. Whereas that non device player is not really changing his play style to fit into a team. I don't know about you but if I am in a team, I'm going to stick with the team. I'm not going to do some John Wayne stuff and run ahead and take the chance being the blame for a team wipe. So toe bombing comes at a limited capacity. But I will say at least in a team you will be toe bombing more then you would solo.
Have you ever looked to see how sturdy FFG is compared to Gun Drone ? Plus your comparing DPS vs defense. FFG is always giving me defense. Gun drone is sometimes attacking, its not always attacking or putting out DPS. There are intervals where its recharging.
General comment about the thread.
I wanted to add if you look back at all these comments the biggest things players posting came up with is Trip mine and Time Bomb which Traps has. So regardless of how someone performs the toe bombing the technique is still the same and is still occurring.
Cloaking Device and Smoke Grenade were mentioned. First off lets make it clear. The -ToHit that Smoke Grenade offers for 60 seconds requires a hit check, its only the perception that works automatically.
So if we are going to debate Device vs Traps lets make sure we all understand that 4 out of the 6 powers your all talking about Traps has. The other 2 powers your trying to push I am doing with 1 power. So what you need 6 to do I am doing with 5. On top of all of this I don't have to stealth to toe bomb in. I can walk in and toe bomb. I don't even need to walk in. I just set up where I am and pull groups to me.
To me I don't get the Traps can't do things that Device can line. To me I get the impression that some just didn't know you can Super Speed with a Stealth IO and stand near mobs and not be seen. So instead of saying crap I didn't know that. Instead it's bah you can't click a glowy though while stealth. You can't stealth run to the end of a mission. Some how your missing the part where I am saying Yes I can do that.
Taser ? Single mag 3 hold ? Compared to Poison Trap and then add in a lock down proc. I don't know I would rather hold 10 mobs instead of 1. Again its just me. I could be just talking crazy talk.. I don't know.
Triage Beacon ?? Who would want to increase there health regen by 300%. It's silly to have almost Scrapper / Brute type health regen. And then top it off if your recharge is fast enough you can have out 2 of them 30 seconds or more. Yea who needs there regen to go from 213% to 813% during an AV fight. Oh wait a device guy can't take on AVs.
Let me just smoke these 2 groups.. I will set up around the corner and pull the first group while the 2nd group is smoked so I don't get double aggro. Or I can walk in with my traps guy pull both groups lay down trip mines like there is no tomorrow and just kill the stragglers.
Again I'm not trying to be a jerk. I want my Device guy to be able do that too. Corruptors who are suppose to be our evil counter parts can with traps.
@Bosstone
I didn't double dot for you. But the Traps can't do what Device comment was directed at you.
I find it silly to say on one hand Traps is better and then say but it can't do what Device can. But in the same breath you talk about the same 2 or really 1 power that both share.
BTW I don't think you can't smoke a mob and then walk up to them normally without using either a stealth IO or super speed. Just using sprint you will be spotted. I know at least if I smoke a mob and then forget to have SS on I get noticed. Similarly if I just have the stealth IO still active as it last 2 minutes I cannot use Ninja run as I will be spotted as well. So those using smoke to stealth run or toe bomb still need another component. -
Personally I would take survivability over damage any day.. There comes a time where you just do not have the right inspirations to make a wake. You can only have so many wakes until you run out.. I think the moment that occurs with your blaster or a non capped toon your either waiting for someone to ress you or running back from hospital. Once that starts occurring your dps is going to drop down because of all the down time from ressing or running back.. So I'm in the mind set of doing less dps but hardly dieing always wins out.. Without a doubt there are times my blaster is zipping through some missions and then I get caught up with Long bow or Malta Group and I am cursing at the screen because of the number of faceplants.
It does seem like a toon I would be into.. So thanks for taking the time to give me a feel of how to toon runs.. -
Quote:No your wrong I do play the way you do... With my AR Device toon.. I do nothing different with my AR Device then what everyone else does.. I set up.. I toe bomb and jump back.. I joust mobs to keep them at range where I am capped.. I hover above when I can't to keep them at bay.. I lay down the score of Trip mines before I talk to the contact from the blackcat tip mission. I lay out trip mines during each wave as fast as I can.. I play my Device guy within the scopes that everyone else does..Originally Posted by Bosstone
Great, you don't play the way I do, so Devices doesn't serve your needs. Frankly I find Super Speed to be a huge pain indoors; the stealth on the power is a convenience while traveling.Mental Manipulation.
Again I have no clue how long you been playing.. I started when the game first came out. So for me I have seen the game evolved and things changed. I seen them TRY to make changes to Devices.. But nothing ever came out of Test. It's been always squashed. But crazy enough the stuff they wanted to do for Device instead they gave to VEATS.. How does that work out ?.. Just making Cloaking Device equal to what VEATS has would be super great improvement to Device.
If I didn't like my AR Device I wouldn't have wasted the time or money or respecs I did to update him. Further I wouldn't have wasted the time to post what learned from making the changes.
But today I would wonder myself why should I TODAY take Devices as a secondary.. In TODAY'S game why would I ?.. Look I'm not some FOTM guy. I have no 50 Brutes or Scrappers or Tankers. I have no Fire Kin..
I do have 4 masterminds which have AI issues, beyond any other issues they might have. Heck I have a Earth Rad.. Try to level a toon with NO attacks.. I was jumping for Joy when I got animate rock.. So I'm not some leet player.. like my title says Plainguy.. That's it.. I'm just average player.
So don't get bent out of shape.. Your making a point and I bring up a counter point.. IF you want to fight, that's you.. Not me..
Part of me is not comfortable with the answer well traps is newer and better because of that.. If so and you know it and I know it and others know it..
Then why don't the devs know it ?
Do they care to know it ?
Do they know but just don't care ?
The Devs should be called on the carpet to answer these questions. Not me and you..
Trust me if I was a new player I would be happy this thread is here to read so I can make my own determination. But at least I would know what I am getting into and not beguiled by what I would call a bit misleading info. By misleading I point you to the comment "spending 30s putting down Time Bomb and using FA". But failing to explain depending on your recharge rate it could be several minutes before you can use it again..
Reading that sure it sounds great.. Until you get to the part. Wait, I need to wait 2 minutes for Time Bomb to recharge ? And 2 minutes is with fairly decent rate.. Otherwise your can be close to 3 minutes..
Seebs wrote a great write up on Device.. And in his write up he was great enough to point out the realities of Device.. Which I commended him for it.. -
Quote:I do agree with you on the control issues of SS indoors in cave missions. Building have a bit more room and visibility that allow SS to traverse it a bit better.. But either way I can agree. But in the face of saving 2 power slots for me its a sacrifice I am willing to take.. Again this is only for stealth runs.. I only stealth run when finishing up the last 3 Tip missions. Otherwise I do the full run for the drops..Originally Posted by seebs
I prefer cloaking device to super speed for most purposes -- better control.
I am not aware of anything in blast sets or elsewhere that does what Time Bomb does, which is let me kill most of a spawn without allowing anything in the spawn to attack me. Time bomb, couple trip mines, and me around a corner = no hassle, just shoot the stragglers.
Aim Build up and ROA / exploding arrow ( the aoe one ) and the archery cone attack. Sorry I don't recall the names of the powers. But that combo does what time bomb and trip mine(s) does together.. The cone attack is similar to get rid of any stragglers.. Mind you I only have my ROA and exploding arrow only 4 slotted. Further the recharge on these powers are much much faster then what your getting out of Time Bomb.
Which as a reminder Traps has both Time bomb and Trip mine. -
Quote:Ahh OZ has spoken. Luckily you don't speak for everyone.Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
There are no crap powers in Devices, unless you only think in terms of teaming and speed over safety (I'll gladly take 30s to lay a Time Bomb and follow up with Full Auto just as it's about to explode to wipe out all Minions and LTs, and severely weaken any Bosses, before anything can start to damage me while I'm soloing
).
Yes, we know. But Blasters can't take Traps, so we don't care.
unless you only think in terms of teaming and speed over safety ?
Let me remind you I have a AR Device.. So the reality is your only placing a Time Bomb or Trip Mine at the start of a fight.. Not during a fight..
Whereas my Traps AR Defender or my Sonic Traps Corruptor are placing Time Bombs and Trip Mines at will during any phase of the fight.. I'm soloing 8 setting missions with my Traps toons, so what would be the difference if I am in a team of 8 of players ? It's the same thing.. The only difference is I have 7 other players who are contributing DPS.
While your pulling 1 group at a time, my traps is pulling several. I fire off aoe attacks at other groups just so I don't have to move my lazy backside.
So your point is moot. But you would know that if you weren't kicking and screaming on the floor getting upset that I said something negative about your precious device set.
We should not be sugar coating and trying to pour awesome sauce over a set that just isn't cutting it anymore.. As I already mentioned if your playing device from an Role playing stand point and Traps really can't cut the mustard for you in that department for some strange reason.. Then I get it.. Otherwise game play wise traps delivers what device should be. -
Quote:Sadly Super Speed and a Stealth IO pretty much counter Cloaking Device and smoke. I will say if there is a sniper or a Rikti Drone then even I will be noticed. But if I am doing a stealth run even without FFG out my defenses are so high that the minor aggro I get from being spotted by these types of mobs is not an issue. Further I think its a benefit to having an IO save me 2 power slots. But if those things are not present I can Toe bomb effectively as would a Device player.Originally Posted by Bosstone
It should. But experience (usually) leads to better design.
Anyway, Traps and Devices do do different things, if you want to stretch a point. Traps is team buffs/debuffs. Devices has some debuffs, but mostly it's about personal buffs and mobility. Between Cloaking Device and Smoke Grenade, you can move through an entire map without aggroing anything, except maybe Snipers. You can have a constant to-hit buff that allows you to casually hit almost anything without effort.
The utility of those abilities compared to Traps is certainly arguable, although recent mission design has allowed for more stealth options, but those are definitely things Traps can't do. (All this of course ignores the fact that no AT allows for a choice of Traps versus Devices, unless you're choosing between a /Dev Blaster or a /Traps Corruptor.) -
Quote:I did say I was gonna sound like a jerk.. I just felt I didn't need to sugar coat it or beat around the bush.Originally Posted by Shades_McSpikey
Im not sure what happened, but when i posted the second build there was no build posted by draggyn. Additionally, i do understand the defense softcap as well as many other game mechanics. I have several very effective level 50 brutes(3), tanks(2), scrappers (4), and blasters(3). Some are fantastic solo, some are designed for group play. All of them use IO sets, I know how they work. I'm not new, I have tens of billions influence available for new builds.
I don't know much about defenders and have asked advice. You're coming at me all wrong, I want advice on defenders, which you offer, but the insults are unnecessary. I have a very good understanding of game mechanics, but i usually make my characters so they don't need a defender. I rarely group with storms defenders, and chose them to try something new. I ask that you not insult me, and instead offer constructive criticism. I six slotted 'Numina for the 6 slot bonus. Do you feel its better in another power? OR, Do you feel its not worth slotting for? Do you think that o2 boost being ready every 1.4 seconds is bad?
I feel like your out to insult me, as opposed to help me.
Also, many people assume my original build is anemic, but with 42 ranged defense, 47 sm/leth as well as hurricane and phase shift, I would be quite survivable.
That said, Dragynn I appreciate your help and will listen to your advice, ill try to remove some of the slow bonuses. Defenders are just a new beast to me. Do you really feel that slotting for attacks and damage is better than sitting back and slotting for support?
Since you get the game mechanics then my comment still holds true.. Draggyn and now Garent both posted builds you should be working off of or to modify to suit your needs..
Garent said it the best and Adeon quoted it..
I made my comments based on the posting times.. But you explained. -
@EricHough
How do you like the Huntsman build ?
Do you feel your doing some DPS ?
I can see your at defense cap so getting toe to toe with mobs is not an issue. But are you killing them fast enough or at a comfortable rate ?
I have both a Traps AR Defender and a AR Device Blaster at 50. Though in some instances my Blaster is clearing out some mobs the survivability of defense cap cannot be beat with my Defender.. Though Trip mine may be a 5 sec cast and at 6 sec recharge. I can use it much more often because of defense cap then I can with my Blaster.
So I am wondering where you build stands. -
Quote:Beyond the several advantages of fire over Assault Rifle. Just reread your first sentence over and over.. The simple fact is one secondary or even primary should not be BETTER then another.. It should have different advantages when compared to other sets and vice versa.Originally Posted by Bosstone
Of course Traps is better. It's newer. That's not always a guarantee, but a lot of learning happened between one and the other.
I'm satisfied with my Fire/Devices Blaster. /Devices hasn't hampered Fire/ from putting out ridiculous amounts of damage from long range, and /Devices lets me do things the other Blaster sets can't.
Sadly after 6 years this game is so beyond Device that they must be thinking whats the point to try to revamp this whole set and lets just stick to what we have and move forward.. Everyone has enough slots to make other toons and they can easily just create an AR Traps Corruptor and go rogue. Those that want to play Device for what is offered know the issues and are playing them willingly knowing those issues( which of course is true ).
I get it, but it is annoying at times. -
Quote:Traps is better..Originally Posted by Gehnen
I have a few reasons...
- Downing an EB with nothing but a minefield is awesome.
- Smoke Grenade allows me to basically raise the defense of my entire team. Couple that with Cloaking Device, and I can stealth through most mobs in the game.
- Web Grenade is a pretty hefty -recharge, even when the immobilize doesn't catch. I just toss it twice on bosses to stop them.
- The area denial impact of Caltrops is amazing. With a range-capped blaster (I know this isn't the norm), keeping everything out of melee is basically god-mode.
- Gun Drone can take some of the aggro that I don't want, and deal a little bit of damage to boot.
- Targetting Drone is amazing...forget Build Up. I can constantly hit my target as long as this toggle is running. CoT ghosts, and +1's mean absolutely nothing to me. Burst damage for 10 seconds is very highly overrated when you consider "never" missing. Of course you could just put the Gaussian's proc in this power like I did.
I've never used Taser
I have a 50 AR Device.. I have a 50 Traps AR.. My Defender was able to handle both AVs during the incarnate mission in Rikti War Zone.. My Ar Device couldn't dent the AV and it was a bit of a struggle when I had to knock them down to EB status.
Both are IOed out. Both builds are on the respective forums. My defender is fully defense capped my Blaster is Range capped.
FFG beats smoke
Stealth IO and Super Speed beats cloaking device.. I can toe bomb the same way I can with my AR Device guy..
Both have Caltrops..
Poison Traps or Acid mortar out weigh Gun Drone. Poison Traps with Lock down proc is GREAT.. Even after when you think the poison isn't working anymore, mobs still get hit with the lock down proc.
I have both Taser and bean bag 6 slotted and I need both to hold a boss mob. Both are a mag 3 hold. On my Ar Device toon.
I can between poison traps and the proc hold up to 10 mobs.
My Defender has a 20% ToHit bonus and a 41% Accuracy bonus
My Blaster has 51% ToHit bonus and 41% Accuracy bonus
End result I am getting a 30% ToHit bonus difference. But Traps crushes Devices.. My Defender offers a team 25% defense bonus and a 19% damage bonus from Assault..
Add in to this mix that solo my Defender gets a 30% damage increase and double slotted for damage from incarnate.
Device is cute at best. And I say this as I ended up spending 100 million slotting up my AR Device to make him i19 compliant. But the more I play other toons like my Arch EM or when I jump on my Traps AR Defender or even my Sonic Traps Corruptor I can see how much Device is lacking..
The only reason to play Device is for thematic reasons and even then you can use traps for exactly the same concept and be even more massive solo and teams..
Again I have it.. Its one of my oldest toons and I took the time to update him.. But when your comparing him to other toons.. He just stinks in so many ways its unbelievable..
Device has NOT had a decent update in a dogs age..
Why do you think that Target Drone ONLY gives a bonus to AR Sniper Rifle and no other snipe from any other set ? Because AR has no build up, people complained and you could not mix and match the sets the way you can today..
They changed Auto Turret to Gun Drone because people complained that they needed Teleport friend just to move Auto Turret around or where stuck to waiting a long time for the recharge. Basically a T9 power that you rarely used.. They made it gun Drone which now, though decent I will admit still can be annoying pulling aggro if you screw up and get too close to mobs while setting up stuff. If it had one dumb command just to stay or follow it might be a bit better. This way you can have it lay back while you set up and or drop a Toe Bomb similar to the way you did back in the day with Auto Turret..
Another simple comment.. You can make a VEAT Hunter build and have a better cloaking device and get critical hits with the Hunter Attacks which you cannot do with Device.. Mind you though they wanted to do that with Cloaking Device way before VEATs even came out. But scrapped it because they felt it was not balanced.. Sadly they kept the wording in for a long time before finally removing it once again because people erroneously kept picking it up thinking it offered some sort of Crit bonus to attacks and of course complained it didn't. Yea they are different but concept wise you can get there with the VEAT build as well and if your not gonna complain about the redraw you can even pick up a mace attack or two..
Again if we are just gonna talk about concept I have seen some really nice Hunter and Hunter Hybird builds on the VEAT forums.. -
I have both a 50 ar dev and a 50 arch em. Both are at range defense cap.
For whatever reason I notice my ar device which clearly has more tools with caltrops, smoke, trip mine, bean bag and taser to evade getting hit still talking a beating much more then compared to my arch em. I believe it comes from being able to use boost range so much that I am out of my enemies range. I also thing but not sure, but maybe archery might have a longer range compared to AR, so I am getting hits back on me much sooner with my ar compared to my archery toon.
I do know that using boost range really helps out because it allows me several attacks and then requires the enemy to run on me. Which further allows me to get off several more attacks .. Also I think since exploding arrow ( I think that is the aoe attack ) has such a quick recharge that it allows me a 2nd shot at any incoming enemies. -
I didn't know that Regen was based on your hit points. I thought it was just a static number for everyone.. So with that said I can see the point everyone has made..
I guess I need to mess around with that Google Doc that Dech made.
But at least I learned something new.. Which is always good
Thanks for the insight